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I'm not an expert in this, but isn't this just a really extra lossy type of battery? Hydrogen takes energy to create, so if you're creating hydrogen from renewa

I'm not an expert in this, but isn't this just a really extra lossy type of battery? Hydrogen takes energy to create, so if you're creating hydrogen from renewable energy sources during peak load, you have to go energy -> hydrogen -> energy with efficiency losses both ways. I remain unimpressed by hydrogen, as it seems to only be practical if you don't any other options for existing stores of energy. For instance a large scale battery system, or even some mechanical energy storage systems.

pfdietz 6y ago
Yes. The advantage of hydrogen is the extremely low cost per unit of stored energy. That is the cost you want to minimize for a storage case with few charge-discharge cycles, like rainy day or seasonal storage. For diurnal storage, batteries or other more efficient storage technologies would make more sense, since there would be more charge-discharge cycles over which to amortize the cost of the system.
- petertodd 6y ago
  Do you have a source on that low cost?
  - pfdietz 6y ago
    https://pv-magazine-usa.com/2020/07/03/nrel-study-backs-hydrogen-for-long-duration-storage/ https://pv-magazine-usa.com/2020/07/03/nrel-study-backs-hydr...
    - macspoofing 6y ago
      >A National Renewable Energy Laboratory (NREL) study concludes that by 2050, hydrogen storage lasting for two weeks “is expected to be cost-effective.” 2050!!! By 2050 we'll also have Fusion and other mythical power sources.
      - Hypx 6y ago
        To be fair, hydrogen is one of those "mythical" power sources. It just happens to be the one that is becoming viable in the short-term and is not dependent on some future discovery.
      - pfdietz 6y ago
        It also gave costs for 2025, which are still very low.
imtringued 6y ago
The benefit of power to gas is that most countries already have an existing system that can both store and burn it. The efficiency is low but the necessary infrastructure investments are also incredibly low compared to building battery based energy storage. It is also an unavoidable step if you want to invest into carbon capture in the future. Excess methane can be exported. Suddenly even a resource poor nation like Germany could become an energy exporter. When you consider that renewable share in % per day in Germany follows a normal distribution then you realize that there are only a few days that actually need to utilize hydrogen or methane to generate power.

pfdietz 6y ago

Yes. The advantage of hydrogen is the extremely low cost per unit of stored energy. That is the cost you want to minimize for a storage case with few charge-discharge cycles, like rainy day or seasonal storage. For diurnal storage, batteries or other more efficient storage technologies would make more sense, since there would be more charge-discharge cycles over which to amortize the cost of the system.

petertodd 6y ago
Do you have a source on that low cost?
- pfdietz 6y ago
  https://pv-magazine-usa.com/2020/07/03/nrel-study-backs-hydrogen-for-long-duration-storage/ https://pv-magazine-usa.com/2020/07/03/nrel-study-backs-hydr...
  - macspoofing 6y ago
    >A National Renewable Energy Laboratory (NREL) study concludes that by 2050, hydrogen storage lasting for two weeks “is expected to be cost-effective.” 2050!!! By 2050 we'll also have Fusion and other mythical power sources.
    - Hypx 6y ago
      To be fair, hydrogen is one of those "mythical" power sources. It just happens to be the one that is becoming viable in the short-term and is not dependent on some future discovery.
    - pfdietz 6y ago
      It also gave costs for 2025, which are still very low.

imtringued 6y ago

The benefit of power to gas is that most countries already have an existing system that can both store and burn it. The efficiency is low but the necessary infrastructure investments are also incredibly low compared to building battery based energy storage. It is also an unavoidable step if you want to invest into carbon capture in the future. Excess methane can be exported. Suddenly even a resource poor nation like Germany could become an energy exporter. When you consider that renewable share in % per day in Germany follows a normal distribution then you realize that there are only a few days that actually need to utilize hydrogen or methane to generate power.