10 ms·

Screw you. Pay me.

248 points by privacyguru 16y ago

leftnode 16y ago
Just had to send out a Fuck You, Pay Me email this morning. That's the #2 piece of advice I'd give to graduating computer science/engineering students: always get paid. #1 is don't build that idea the business major across the street has for free, which ties in nicely to #2.
blazamos 16y ago
Any particular reason you changed the title? Some people might find it offensive, but they've already semi-censored it with the title "F*ck You. Pay me."
- mgrouchy 16y ago
  Because thats the title on Venturebeat I imagine.
  - CWIZO 16y ago
    But the title of the video is "F*ck you. Pay me.". If you ask me this submission should point directly to the video and the title should be that of the video.
    - mgrouchy 16y ago
      Well, we could argue that about many of the posts on here. But as it is, this links to the VentureBeat article which links to the video, So I think the title is okay.
      - cjeane 16y ago
        Is this what we are calling an article? Five sentences plus a warning that the video is offensive. If this was posted on any no name blog, there would be a lot more pressure to link to the original video only. I call double standard.
        chopsueyar 16y ago
        Time to get back in the DeLorean?
    - white_devil 16y ago
      Can we please just write the damn word down as it is? Everyone knows what the word is, and if someone gets offended by seeing it, that's his very own special problem.
- epo 16y ago
  Alternative link albeit with censored headline http://vimeo.com/22053820 http://vimeo.com/22053820
jgarmon 16y ago
During my consulting days, this was a hard issue to get across to many clients. (Part of the reason I don't do much consulting anymore.) My time has a value. You're paying for my time. Whether you extract value from my time is up to you, but I'm going to be paid for it either way. My consulting colleagues often disagreed with this philosophy, trying to walk some careful balance of not asking to be paid too much so the client will use you again. use being the operative word here. If the client is the type that doesn't value your time, you don't want them to hire you. It never ends up being worth it.
eli 16y ago
When I got my first real job at a small consulting firm, I was shocked at how many clients just refused to pay their bill. They didn't even really seem to have any specific reason for not paying. Law firms were they worst. I guess because whaddya gonna do? sue them?
- jbooth 16y ago
  Yeah, having seen some friends get stuck in that situation, I've decided if I ever get into contracting, I'm never starting out on a contract without the "you pay my legal fees if I have to sue you for collection" clause in the contract. Once you've got that clause.. hey bring it on. Pay me or I'll just hire a buddy for my lawyer, have him rack up the bill and consult with him over a steak dinner.
  - Tyrant505 16y ago
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but I did not think that was possible(legal).
    - delinka 16y ago
      You can put anything into a contract. And in this case (client pays fees, including legal fees, associated with collection of invoices ... Or somesuch) it's certainly enforceable.
      - kurige 16y ago
        ... unless you have to sue them for the funds to sue them.
      - ams6110 16y ago
        I'm unconvinced that the "client pays legal fees" clause is really a sure thing. All the client has to do is make the argument on some other basis, and suddenly it's not a collections issue but a dispute over something else in the contract. In most states, each side will pay their own legal freight in such civil complaints.
jnhnum1 16y ago
Don't people usually deal with this sort of thing by signing a contract ahead of time?
- sbarre 16y ago
  The point of the article is that a lot of freelancers and small agencies don't have contracts in place for the work they do with their clients.
  - michaelochurch 16y ago
    A lot of freelancers and small artists are afraid to be "aggressive" by asking for a contract. This is the same dynamic as occurs when someone is young and eager and underprices his or her services. It doesn't make people like you or get you respect. It leads people to take advantage. Always get a contract. And everyone who works independently in any context needs to watch or listen to the video. (I'm doing that right now.) It's worth the 38 minutes.
- pavel_lishin 16y ago
  Sure. Some clients still refuse to pay. This happened a few times at a previous employer's. It usually wasn't worth it to take them to court, and since we also hosted their website, after a certain time, we'd simply take down their website and e-mail accounts. About half of the non-paying clients suddenly found room in their budget to pay us for our work and hosting fees. Funny how that works, but unfortunately, that doesn't work for design firms. :/
  - tomjen3 16y ago
    There is a Danish support company which figured out that if all else fails a public foundraising event will shame most companies into paying your fee. It supposedly works on IBM.
    - forensic 16y ago
      What's a public foundraising event and how does it get people to pay? I don't really understand what you mean, sounds interesting though.
ElliotH 16y ago
Wish I had seen this about a year ago. Learnt some of it the hard way already sadly.
rabble 16y ago
There's a ton written about running a startup, but there is amazingly little written about doing a professional services design / development firm. Anybody know of good sources for running a good services firm?
- gersh 16y ago
  The basics are: 1) Get good clients. Low-end clients typically aren't worth your time, and it will be hard to make money. 2) The best way to get new business is via referrals. The best business can found through happy customers 3) Don't try to compete on price, or hire the cheapest the employees. It doesn't work well in this business. 4) Have contracts and get everything agreed to in writing 5) Pay careful attention to your costs, and learn basic accounting. Overhead for offices and such costs money. You also need to overhead to cover downtime, sales, project management, and collections. You may need 100% overhead. If you agree to do a project for $3000, make sure you can really get it done for that prices. You also need to figure out how to deal with change-requests. If you allow too many free change requests, you will lose money. When setting the prices, you need to think like a businessperson. A lot of designers and programmers don't understand how to price their work very well.
  - billswift 16y ago
    >If you agree to do a project for $3000, make sure you can really get it done for that prices. Yes, and to repeat another point you made earlier, the price you need to charge includes the associated overhead. I have seen many people start in consulting only to fail because they didn't take their overhead costs into account, or at least enough into account, when billing. The only real difference between failing to bill for overhead costs at all and not billing enough is how long it takes you to fail.
- mgkimsal 16y ago
  This is what indieconf was set up to help address last year, and we'll be doing another one this fall. Videos of some of the sessions will be coming soon - http://indieconf.com http://indieconf.com and sign up on the email list to be notified (yes this is a bit of a blatant early plug!)
michaelochurch 16y ago
This wouldn't work in New York where you can call cabs from the street, but I lived in a town in Minnesota where there was a "non-payer" phone-number list that cab companies used. If you didn't pay the driver, your phone wouldn't get through to any cab company until you paid it back, plus interest and a processing penalty. It seems like a "bad client" list would be, at least, a partial solution.
- ra 16y ago
  Sounds like a business idea!
- shin_lao 16y ago
  This exists, there are companies dedicated to rating companies and recovering money for you (for a fee, of course).
- kmfrk 16y ago
  I would imagine something like that in New York. Over here, in a much less stressful European city, I am familiar with the opposite. If the driver really likes you, he'll give you his direct number, so you can call him directly and skip (at least most of) the line. Women always seem to be the ones who get those deals. Hmm.
- AdamGibbins 16y ago
  What stopped people companies blacklisting you for personal grudges?
  - eru 16y ago
    The urge to make money?
ihumanable 16y ago
As someone getting started in the Freelancing / Consulting world and trying to figure out how you are supposed to do things the "right way" this was a really accessible, fun, and valuable piece to watch, definitely worth the time. I do have some questions for the HN community if anyone has some advice, thanks in advance. What's the best way to go about contracts, especially form contracts. Most of the work I do is the same kind of thing and normally the only variables are rate / duration / deliverables. Is the best way to go about this to find a lawyer and have him draft something that I can just drop "$rate / $time" for "$durationOfProject" into. Is it best to go to the lawyer with some sort of draft in hand already or should you let them do all the work? Can anyone point to some good resources for boilerplate contracts? Anyways, it's all very new and confusing and exciting, just trying not to fuck it up too badly. Thanks for any advice.
- mattew 16y ago
  I am not a lawyer, but what mine did for my firm is create a Master Services Agreement (MSA) that I use as a starting point for all my clients. Some of the things that I think are important to include are: * Stipulation of ownership and licensing for the deliverables. * Confidentiality * Disclaimer of warranties (Software provided as is) * Limitation of liability * Acceptance terms for deliverables In my experience the money that I spent having a qualified lawyer who understands small business and intellectual property prepare and support my use of this agreement has been very helpful. The right lawyer will have a draft that he can start with and modify for your requirements. You can also work with your lawyer to determine the right way to organize your firm (LLC/S-Corp/etc).
- theDoug 16y ago
  You can also ask Gabe questions directly at http://mylawyergabe.com/ http://mylawyergabe.com/
- ra 16y ago
  At $250 it's not cheap, but there's a lot of really great process and information in the Sitepoint Web Design Business Kit; including sample contracts. It's kind of like a franchise kit for freelancers.
crikli 16y ago
My small firm has never had cash flow problems and we've never had a client successfully avoid payment. (EDIT: We've had cash flow problems in the beginning due to being a startup, but never from non-payment). There are a few things that we do that have created this scenario: 1) Stipulate a 10 day payment policy. We don't really expect people to pay that quickly, but prospects/clients always bring it up. It give us the opportunity to communicate how serious we are about getting paid. We then flex the policy to something more realistic, although we make them fight to get the time beyond 10 days. 2) Payment is made regardless of the client's invoice status. We work with a lot of creative agencies so we're not always contracted to the ultimate payer. We make it very clear that we will be paid on time regardless of the status of their invoices. This is a really big thing to look out for it you work with agencies; they want to try to wait to pay you until they've been paid. We make it crystal clear that we will not allow their collection issues to become our collection issues. 3) Meet with your clients face-to-face and build relationships and in some cases friendships with them. It's a lot harder to screw over someone you have to look in the eye. Also, in my case I'm a pretty big dude, ex-lock (rugby), and it's also harder to screw over someone who could break you in half. It's primitive, but it works. :) 4) ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS get money up front. We have a sliding scale for this based on total contract size, but it ranges from 25-50% as an initial payment. 5) Don't start the clock or work until you get paid. We guarantee delivery time, however our clock doesn't start until we've deposited payment, and our contracts stipulate this. 6) Follow up on invoices. We follow up on invoices at 15 day intervals. This is a good thing for so many reasons. It reminds them you're serious. It allows you to communicate before you have to go to the mattresses. It keeps you on top of your A/R because it's too easy to go "oh, it'll be okay, they'll pay" and go back to the IDE.
- gte910h 16y ago
  >) Payment is made regardless of the client's invoice status. That's a good way to state that. I hadn't thought of that way to state the exact sentiment.
  - crikli 16y ago
    Thanks. Our language on the matter is very specific, and we are very explicit about that policy both in the contract paperwork and in our verbal communications. Even so, I'd say 3 of 5 clients try to pull the "we haven't been paid yet, we can't pay you" bit. At which point I remind them of their initials on the contract acknowledging that they understood that particular point. Bottom line, I refuse to let their cash flow issues become my cash flow issues.
edw519 16y ago
Oh the horror stories I've heard: - a software house whose biggest client found out that they were 75% of their business. So they just stopped paying their bills and waited them out until the source code ended up in receivership. - A contractor that bid a time and material job, deployed it successfully, and got paid. He was then called back in to change a few things for which he was not paid because, "We paid for it to be right in the first place." - a local trucker that made 500 successful deliveries buy screwed one up, so he got paid nothing. He blocked the parking lot with his truck in order to get paid. (The company would rather pay him that get the bad press from the local newspaper.) - bounced checks, checks without signature, checks where the 2 amounts didn't match, checks with next year's date: too many to mention Also, I'm surprised no one has mentioned a controversial practice I know that others have used: time bombs in the software. It goes something like this: Here is your working version which we will make permanent when you're paid in full. I have never resorted to something like this and I hope I never do. Has anyone ever tried this? What are the ramifications, financial, business, and legal?
- crikli 16y ago
  "Also, I'm surprised no one has mentioned a controversial practice I know that others have used: time bombs in the software. It goes something like this: Here is your working version which we will make permanent when you're paid in full." If you have to resort to this practice, you have already failed. Tripping the time bomb will get you sued, not paid, and you will lose. You may even go to jail.
  - icey 16y ago
    I think it's a matter of perspective. We do this with enterprise software, except we don't call it a "time bomb". "We've deployed your installation with a provisional, expiring license. We'll issue your permanent license once you've confirmed the software is installed and configured to your liking." Then when they send the check, we send the license. It's never been a problem for any of the parties because we've always been very up front about how the process works. No surprises.
    - 16y ago
michaelpinto 16y ago
My lawyer once pointed out to me that "contracts are only as good as the people who signed them" and what I've learned over the years is to go out of my way to avoid doing business with anyone who seems to be a flake. Granted that things can go south, but this strategy works well. And I say this as someone who went to court once and still couldn't collect.
- alexqgb 16y ago
  That's a variation on my own (painfully acquired) General Operating Principle about what really matters: It's not what's on the table - it's what's in the chairs.
- oomkiller 16y ago
  That's like "pulling out" instead of using real contraception. It's usually effective, but when it fails, it can be disastrous. That's why you should always have a good contract, just in case.
  - jongraehl 16y ago
    You misread. He didn't say "don't have a contract".
- tomkarlo 16y ago
  This is especially true when it comes to small contracts (below $25K)... in many cases, the overhead of those situations makes actually going to court onerous, even if you win. You want to either get paid up front, or ramp up your relationship with someone to minimize the risk if they decide to just not pay you.
korch 16y ago
Been there, done that, never again. Consulting really sucks when you're stuck with a client who deserves to be fired. My horror story was having to quote excerpts from California labor code 200-243 to the CTO of a ~$200 million corp, and threaten to take it to court after not being paid after 90 days, and after essentially being told to take a flying fuck. However, telling the CTO to go fuck himself to his face did feel good. They eventually paid. Under California law, if you're contracting and they don't pay you within a set number of days, then they have to keep paying you the same amount until they pay what is owed, and they also have to pay huge penalties.
AGorilla 16y ago
Here's the Vimeo link for all us iOSers http://vimeo.com/22053820 http://vimeo.com/22053820
tomkarlo 16y ago
I once had a client ask if they could just not pay a $2M bill (after 18 months of work) in the name of the "relationship" (because presumably there were much bigger deals down the line.) My boss, to his credit, didn't miss a beat before saying "that's not the kind of relationship we want."
sleight42 16y ago
Tangential but I'm hugely impressed with the camera work in this video. The alternate long and close-in shots of Mike, the speaker, and the use of contract gave it a decided Hollywood feel for me.
- martey 16y ago
  The original source link at Vimeo (which, as other commenters have stated, should probably have been linked to instead of VentureBeat) states that the camera work was by http://whitmoreprod.com/ http://whitmoreprod.com/ , which seems to be a professional film production/design firm.
daimyoyo 16y ago
This question might seem naive and if it does I apologize. I live in Vegas but in all likelihood the vast majority of projects I'll be taking will be for out of state companies(especially in CA.) Should I retain a lawyer here, or should I look for one based in California? Thanks for any insight.
- joshuaheard 16y ago
  If you are going to sue a company in CA, you will need a lawyer licensed there. For contracts, you can hire a local lawyer if they put Nevada as the jurisdiction in the contract. Also, you can then sue them in Nevada.
canadiancreed 16y ago
This is something that, as someone that is looking to get into the whole consulting business (yes I must be insane), found quite interesting. Thanks for sharing.

248 points by privacyguru 16y ago

Just had to send out a Fuck You, Pay Me email this morning. That's the #2 piece of advice I'd give to graduating computer science/engineering students: always get paid. #1 is don't build that idea the business major across the street has for free, which ties in nicely to #2.

blazamos 16y ago

Any particular reason you changed the title? Some people might find it offensive, but they've already semi-censored it with the title "F*ck You. Pay me."

mgrouchy 16y ago
Because thats the title on Venturebeat I imagine.
- CWIZO 16y ago
  But the title of the video is "F*ck you. Pay me.". If you ask me this submission should point directly to the video and the title should be that of the video.
  - mgrouchy 16y ago
    Well, we could argue that about many of the posts on here. But as it is, this links to the VentureBeat article which links to the video, So I think the title is okay.
    - cjeane 16y ago
      Is this what we are calling an article? Five sentences plus a warning that the video is offensive. If this was posted on any no name blog, there would be a lot more pressure to link to the original video only. I call double standard.
      - chopsueyar 16y ago
        Time to get back in the DeLorean?
  - white_devil 16y ago
    Can we please just write the damn word down as it is? Everyone knows what the word is, and if someone gets offended by seeing it, that's his very own special problem.
epo 16y ago
Alternative link albeit with censored headline http://vimeo.com/22053820 http://vimeo.com/22053820

jgarmon 16y ago

During my consulting days, this was a hard issue to get across to many clients. (Part of the reason I don't do much consulting anymore.) My time has a value. You're paying for my time. Whether you extract value from my time is up to you, but I'm going to be paid for it either way. My consulting colleagues often disagreed with this philosophy, trying to walk some careful balance of not asking to be paid too much so the client will use you again. use being the operative word here. If the client is the type that doesn't value your time, you don't want them to hire you. It never ends up being worth it.

eli 16y ago

When I got my first real job at a small consulting firm, I was shocked at how many clients just refused to pay their bill. They didn't even really seem to have any specific reason for not paying. Law firms were they worst. I guess because whaddya gonna do? sue them?

jbooth 16y ago
Yeah, having seen some friends get stuck in that situation, I've decided if I ever get into contracting, I'm never starting out on a contract without the "you pay my legal fees if I have to sue you for collection" clause in the contract. Once you've got that clause.. hey bring it on. Pay me or I'll just hire a buddy for my lawyer, have him rack up the bill and consult with him over a steak dinner.
- Tyrant505 16y ago
  Correct me if I'm wrong, but I did not think that was possible(legal).
  - delinka 16y ago
    You can put anything into a contract. And in this case (client pays fees, including legal fees, associated with collection of invoices ... Or somesuch) it's certainly enforceable.
    - kurige 16y ago
      ... unless you have to sue them for the funds to sue them.
    - ams6110 16y ago
      I'm unconvinced that the "client pays legal fees" clause is really a sure thing. All the client has to do is make the argument on some other basis, and suddenly it's not a collections issue but a dispute over something else in the contract. In most states, each side will pay their own legal freight in such civil complaints.

jnhnum1 16y ago

Don't people usually deal with this sort of thing by signing a contract ahead of time?

sbarre 16y ago
The point of the article is that a lot of freelancers and small agencies don't have contracts in place for the work they do with their clients.
- michaelochurch 16y ago
  A lot of freelancers and small artists are afraid to be "aggressive" by asking for a contract. This is the same dynamic as occurs when someone is young and eager and underprices his or her services. It doesn't make people like you or get you respect. It leads people to take advantage. Always get a contract. And everyone who works independently in any context needs to watch or listen to the video. (I'm doing that right now.) It's worth the 38 minutes.
pavel_lishin 16y ago
Sure. Some clients still refuse to pay. This happened a few times at a previous employer's. It usually wasn't worth it to take them to court, and since we also hosted their website, after a certain time, we'd simply take down their website and e-mail accounts. About half of the non-paying clients suddenly found room in their budget to pay us for our work and hosting fees. Funny how that works, but unfortunately, that doesn't work for design firms. :/
- tomjen3 16y ago
  There is a Danish support company which figured out that if all else fails a public foundraising event will shame most companies into paying your fee. It supposedly works on IBM.
  - forensic 16y ago
    What's a public foundraising event and how does it get people to pay? I don't really understand what you mean, sounds interesting though.

ElliotH 16y ago

Wish I had seen this about a year ago. Learnt some of it the hard way already sadly.

rabble 16y ago

There's a ton written about running a startup, but there is amazingly little written about doing a professional services design / development firm. Anybody know of good sources for running a good services firm?

gersh 16y ago
The basics are: 1) Get good clients. Low-end clients typically aren't worth your time, and it will be hard to make money. 2) The best way to get new business is via referrals. The best business can found through happy customers 3) Don't try to compete on price, or hire the cheapest the employees. It doesn't work well in this business. 4) Have contracts and get everything agreed to in writing 5) Pay careful attention to your costs, and learn basic accounting. Overhead for offices and such costs money. You also need to overhead to cover downtime, sales, project management, and collections. You may need 100% overhead. If you agree to do a project for $3000, make sure you can really get it done for that prices. You also need to figure out how to deal with change-requests. If you allow too many free change requests, you will lose money. When setting the prices, you need to think like a businessperson. A lot of designers and programmers don't understand how to price their work very well.
- billswift 16y ago
  >If you agree to do a project for $3000, make sure you can really get it done for that prices. Yes, and to repeat another point you made earlier, the price you need to charge includes the associated overhead. I have seen many people start in consulting only to fail because they didn't take their overhead costs into account, or at least enough into account, when billing. The only real difference between failing to bill for overhead costs at all and not billing enough is how long it takes you to fail.
mgkimsal 16y ago
This is what indieconf was set up to help address last year, and we'll be doing another one this fall. Videos of some of the sessions will be coming soon - http://indieconf.com http://indieconf.com and sign up on the email list to be notified (yes this is a bit of a blatant early plug!)

michaelochurch 16y ago

This wouldn't work in New York where you can call cabs from the street, but I lived in a town in Minnesota where there was a "non-payer" phone-number list that cab companies used. If you didn't pay the driver, your phone wouldn't get through to any cab company until you paid it back, plus interest and a processing penalty. It seems like a "bad client" list would be, at least, a partial solution.

ra 16y ago
Sounds like a business idea!
shin_lao 16y ago
This exists, there are companies dedicated to rating companies and recovering money for you (for a fee, of course).
kmfrk 16y ago
I would imagine something like that in New York. Over here, in a much less stressful European city, I am familiar with the opposite. If the driver really likes you, he'll give you his direct number, so you can call him directly and skip (at least most of) the line. Women always seem to be the ones who get those deals. Hmm.
AdamGibbins 16y ago
What stopped people companies blacklisting you for personal grudges?
- eru 16y ago
  The urge to make money?

ihumanable 16y ago

As someone getting started in the Freelancing / Consulting world and trying to figure out how you are supposed to do things the "right way" this was a really accessible, fun, and valuable piece to watch, definitely worth the time. I do have some questions for the HN community if anyone has some advice, thanks in advance. What's the best way to go about contracts, especially form contracts. Most of the work I do is the same kind of thing and normally the only variables are rate / duration / deliverables. Is the best way to go about this to find a lawyer and have him draft something that I can just drop "$rate / $time" for "$durationOfProject" into. Is it best to go to the lawyer with some sort of draft in hand already or should you let them do all the work? Can anyone point to some good resources for boilerplate contracts? Anyways, it's all very new and confusing and exciting, just trying not to fuck it up too badly. Thanks for any advice.

mattew 16y ago
I am not a lawyer, but what mine did for my firm is create a Master Services Agreement (MSA) that I use as a starting point for all my clients. Some of the things that I think are important to include are: * Stipulation of ownership and licensing for the deliverables. * Confidentiality * Disclaimer of warranties (Software provided as is) * Limitation of liability * Acceptance terms for deliverables In my experience the money that I spent having a qualified lawyer who understands small business and intellectual property prepare and support my use of this agreement has been very helpful. The right lawyer will have a draft that he can start with and modify for your requirements. You can also work with your lawyer to determine the right way to organize your firm (LLC/S-Corp/etc).
theDoug 16y ago
You can also ask Gabe questions directly at http://mylawyergabe.com/ http://mylawyergabe.com/
ra 16y ago
At $250 it's not cheap, but there's a lot of really great process and information in the Sitepoint Web Design Business Kit; including sample contracts. It's kind of like a franchise kit for freelancers.

crikli 16y ago

My small firm has never had cash flow problems and we've never had a client successfully avoid payment. (EDIT: We've had cash flow problems in the beginning due to being a startup, but never from non-payment). There are a few things that we do that have created this scenario: 1) Stipulate a 10 day payment policy. We don't really expect people to pay that quickly, but prospects/clients always bring it up. It give us the opportunity to communicate how serious we are about getting paid. We then flex the policy to something more realistic, although we make them fight to get the time beyond 10 days. 2) Payment is made regardless of the client's invoice status. We work with a lot of creative agencies so we're not always contracted to the ultimate payer. We make it very clear that we will be paid on time regardless of the status of their invoices. This is a really big thing to look out for it you work with agencies; they want to try to wait to pay you until they've been paid. We make it crystal clear that we will not allow their collection issues to become our collection issues. 3) Meet with your clients face-to-face and build relationships and in some cases friendships with them. It's a lot harder to screw over someone you have to look in the eye. Also, in my case I'm a pretty big dude, ex-lock (rugby), and it's also harder to screw over someone who could break you in half. It's primitive, but it works. :) 4) ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS get money up front. We have a sliding scale for this based on total contract size, but it ranges from 25-50% as an initial payment. 5) Don't start the clock or work until you get paid. We guarantee delivery time, however our clock doesn't start until we've deposited payment, and our contracts stipulate this. 6) Follow up on invoices. We follow up on invoices at 15 day intervals. This is a good thing for so many reasons. It reminds them you're serious. It allows you to communicate before you have to go to the mattresses. It keeps you on top of your A/R because it's too easy to go "oh, it'll be okay, they'll pay" and go back to the IDE.

gte910h 16y ago
>) Payment is made regardless of the client's invoice status. That's a good way to state that. I hadn't thought of that way to state the exact sentiment.
- crikli 16y ago
  Thanks. Our language on the matter is very specific, and we are very explicit about that policy both in the contract paperwork and in our verbal communications. Even so, I'd say 3 of 5 clients try to pull the "we haven't been paid yet, we can't pay you" bit. At which point I remind them of their initials on the contract acknowledging that they understood that particular point. Bottom line, I refuse to let their cash flow issues become my cash flow issues.

edw519 16y ago

Oh the horror stories I've heard: - a software house whose biggest client found out that they were 75% of their business. So they just stopped paying their bills and waited them out until the source code ended up in receivership. - A contractor that bid a time and material job, deployed it successfully, and got paid. He was then called back in to change a few things for which he was not paid because, "We paid for it to be right in the first place." - a local trucker that made 500 successful deliveries buy screwed one up, so he got paid nothing. He blocked the parking lot with his truck in order to get paid. (The company would rather pay him that get the bad press from the local newspaper.) - bounced checks, checks without signature, checks where the 2 amounts didn't match, checks with next year's date: too many to mention Also, I'm surprised no one has mentioned a controversial practice I know that others have used: time bombs in the software. It goes something like this: Here is your working version which we will make permanent when you're paid in full. I have never resorted to something like this and I hope I never do. Has anyone ever tried this? What are the ramifications, financial, business, and legal?

crikli 16y ago
"Also, I'm surprised no one has mentioned a controversial practice I know that others have used: time bombs in the software. It goes something like this: Here is your working version which we will make permanent when you're paid in full." If you have to resort to this practice, you have already failed. Tripping the time bomb will get you sued, not paid, and you will lose. You may even go to jail.
- icey 16y ago
  I think it's a matter of perspective. We do this with enterprise software, except we don't call it a "time bomb". "We've deployed your installation with a provisional, expiring license. We'll issue your permanent license once you've confirmed the software is installed and configured to your liking." Then when they send the check, we send the license. It's never been a problem for any of the parties because we've always been very up front about how the process works. No surprises.
  - 16y ago

michaelpinto 16y ago

My lawyer once pointed out to me that "contracts are only as good as the people who signed them" and what I've learned over the years is to go out of my way to avoid doing business with anyone who seems to be a flake. Granted that things can go south, but this strategy works well. And I say this as someone who went to court once and still couldn't collect.

alexqgb 16y ago
That's a variation on my own (painfully acquired) General Operating Principle about what really matters: It's not what's on the table - it's what's in the chairs.
oomkiller 16y ago
That's like "pulling out" instead of using real contraception. It's usually effective, but when it fails, it can be disastrous. That's why you should always have a good contract, just in case.
- jongraehl 16y ago
  You misread. He didn't say "don't have a contract".
tomkarlo 16y ago
This is especially true when it comes to small contracts (below $25K)... in many cases, the overhead of those situations makes actually going to court onerous, even if you win. You want to either get paid up front, or ramp up your relationship with someone to minimize the risk if they decide to just not pay you.

korch 16y ago

Been there, done that, never again. Consulting really sucks when you're stuck with a client who deserves to be fired. My horror story was having to quote excerpts from California labor code 200-243 to the CTO of a ~$200 million corp, and threaten to take it to court after not being paid after 90 days, and after essentially being told to take a flying fuck. However, telling the CTO to go fuck himself to his face did feel good. They eventually paid. Under California law, if you're contracting and they don't pay you within a set number of days, then they have to keep paying you the same amount until they pay what is owed, and they also have to pay huge penalties.

AGorilla 16y ago

Here's the Vimeo link for all us iOSers http://vimeo.com/22053820 http://vimeo.com/22053820

tomkarlo 16y ago

I once had a client ask if they could just not pay a $2M bill (after 18 months of work) in the name of the "relationship" (because presumably there were much bigger deals down the line.) My boss, to his credit, didn't miss a beat before saying "that's not the kind of relationship we want."

sleight42 16y ago

Tangential but I'm hugely impressed with the camera work in this video. The alternate long and close-in shots of Mike, the speaker, and the use of contract gave it a decided Hollywood feel for me.

martey 16y ago
The original source link at Vimeo (which, as other commenters have stated, should probably have been linked to instead of VentureBeat) states that the camera work was by http://whitmoreprod.com/ http://whitmoreprod.com/ , which seems to be a professional film production/design firm.

daimyoyo 16y ago

This question might seem naive and if it does I apologize. I live in Vegas but in all likelihood the vast majority of projects I'll be taking will be for out of state companies(especially in CA.) Should I retain a lawyer here, or should I look for one based in California? Thanks for any insight.

joshuaheard 16y ago
If you are going to sue a company in CA, you will need a lawyer licensed there. For contracts, you can hire a local lawyer if they put Nevada as the jurisdiction in the contract. Also, you can then sue them in Nevada.

canadiancreed 16y ago

This is something that, as someone that is looking to get into the whole consulting business (yes I must be insane), found quite interesting. Thanks for sharing.