4 ms·

As an elected representative for them I would probably ask why they're upset and appease their grievances if warranted. Lawless murder and intimidation by the

As an elected representative for them I would probably ask why they're upset and appease their grievances if warranted. Lawless murder and intimidation by the police is a violently oppressive grievance I would consider warranted. Instead citizens who demand justice are met with surprise more injustice by the police.

deathgrips 6y ago
And what about the citizens who show up and demand free shoes?
- tehjoker 6y ago
  Generally, the US has been so focused on concentrating wealth and power upwards that I would say give it [the free shoes] to them so long as its a universal program.
refurb 6y ago
That worked great for the mayor of Portland. He ended up moving out of his home because the protestors showed up there to harass him.
- XMPPwocky 6y ago
  "That worked great"- what's "that", here? It sounds like you're implying that he tried to listen to protestors and address their grievances, and so was driven out of his home- is that roughly what you meant? If so, what are some of the ways he tried to address those grievances? This is not the same thing as me saying "that is good and I'm glad it happened", to be clear! Just ... if he didn't actually do what the parent post suggested, I don't see how that response is relevant.
  - SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
    For example, he banned tear gas and chokeholds, redirected substantial funding (I think close to 10 million?) from the police budget to community initiatives, removed police officers from city schools, and eliminated specific police teams like the gun violence squad which activists believed had a culture of racial discrimination.
    - lovehashbrowns 6y ago
      This seems like a fair summary of how Ted Wheeler and Portland/Oregon's government is handling demands: https://www.opb.org/article/2020/08/01/portland-protest-end-police-reform-reimagine-oregon/ https://www.opb.org/article/2020/08/01/portland-protest-end-... The main criticism is that it is not enough or not fast enough. The bigger frustration is the fear that current policy changes are only to appease and not to fix the root issues. For example, Wheeler only recently banned the use of tear gas: https://www.portland.gov/wheeler/news/2020/9/10/mayor-wheeler-directive-use-cs-gas https://www.portland.gov/wheeler/news/2020/9/10/mayor-wheele... (note the date--6 days ago). Another example, funding cuts were not seen as enough: https://www.opb.org/news/article/portland-police-budget-15-million-defund-cannabis-council-vote/ https://www.opb.org/news/article/portland-police-budget-15-m... The most comprehensive list of demands, including updates to their status, can be seen here: https://www.reimagineoregon.org/policydemands https://www.reimagineoregon.org/policydemands
      - SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
        I'm just not sure that "demands" is the right framing here. This site is outlining a large series of policy initiatives, ranging from police reforms to housing and transportation policy to specific legislative process details. Such complicated changes need to be subject to civic debate, and compromises might have to be made to account for factors the organizers didn't think of or other groups with similarly strong beliefs.
        lovehashbrowns 6y ago
        You are correct that these policies are all subject to debate and compromise, but I think "demands" is the perfect way to frame these things. The small picture of these protests is that an unarmed black man died while handcuffed, on his stomach, pleading for his life, with a police officer's knee to the back of his neck. The bigger picture is that systemic racism has been an ongoing issue for decades (but since the country's founding, actually). Oregon itself has quite the history with systemic racism: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism_in_Oregon https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism_in_Oregon So the frustration isn't necessarily that policies are subject to debate or that compromises have to be made; the frustration lies in elected officials that help maintain a level of systemic racism via inaction and non-enforcement. Hence, the particularly aggressive use of "demands" which is also framed around ongoing protests in Portland and elsewhere. This, I think, is far more clear in the use of the phrase "defund the police." A lot of people have issue with this phrase because they think it means entirely eliminating the police force. And yes, some percentage of those who say "defund the police" do mean completely eliminating the police force, but the majority actually mean "divert significant funding from the police department to social programs and health workers." However, there are two issues with that; 1, it's not very succint. 2, it does not adequately express the frustration people have with police.
  - refurb 6y ago
    He went to one of the protests to listen to their grievances and ended up getting heckled. Fast forward a few weeks, they started protesting in front of his condo building - shining lasers in the windows, trashing the lobby and shooting fireworks. The mayor said he will be moving out.
oyashirochama 6y ago
Neither method works, you antagonize them, they fight back, you appease them, they ask for more or say its to late. Honestly nuclear option might have been only option for many situations of "mostly peaceful" protests. They ordered dispersal in most of these cases too due to looting and riots. Just because you say you're "press" doesn't absolve you from the law due to riots and damages from looters; for example.
- XMPPwocky 6y ago
  The interesting thing about this argument is it's independent from whether or not the protests are justified. If there's riots, well, only option is to start moving in and dispersing the crowd. If you appease them, they'll just ask for more. In light of this, would you say the same thing about the treatment of protestors in Hong Kong? If not, why not?

deathgrips 6y ago

And what about the citizens who show up and demand free shoes?

tehjoker 6y ago
Generally, the US has been so focused on concentrating wealth and power upwards that I would say give it [the free shoes] to them so long as its a universal program.

refurb 6y ago

That worked great for the mayor of Portland. He ended up moving out of his home because the protestors showed up there to harass him.

XMPPwocky 6y ago
"That worked great"- what's "that", here? It sounds like you're implying that he tried to listen to protestors and address their grievances, and so was driven out of his home- is that roughly what you meant? If so, what are some of the ways he tried to address those grievances? This is not the same thing as me saying "that is good and I'm glad it happened", to be clear! Just ... if he didn't actually do what the parent post suggested, I don't see how that response is relevant.
- SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
  For example, he banned tear gas and chokeholds, redirected substantial funding (I think close to 10 million?) from the police budget to community initiatives, removed police officers from city schools, and eliminated specific police teams like the gun violence squad which activists believed had a culture of racial discrimination.
  - lovehashbrowns 6y ago
    This seems like a fair summary of how Ted Wheeler and Portland/Oregon's government is handling demands: https://www.opb.org/article/2020/08/01/portland-protest-end-police-reform-reimagine-oregon/ https://www.opb.org/article/2020/08/01/portland-protest-end-... The main criticism is that it is not enough or not fast enough. The bigger frustration is the fear that current policy changes are only to appease and not to fix the root issues. For example, Wheeler only recently banned the use of tear gas: https://www.portland.gov/wheeler/news/2020/9/10/mayor-wheeler-directive-use-cs-gas https://www.portland.gov/wheeler/news/2020/9/10/mayor-wheele... (note the date--6 days ago). Another example, funding cuts were not seen as enough: https://www.opb.org/news/article/portland-police-budget-15-million-defund-cannabis-council-vote/ https://www.opb.org/news/article/portland-police-budget-15-m... The most comprehensive list of demands, including updates to their status, can be seen here: https://www.reimagineoregon.org/policydemands https://www.reimagineoregon.org/policydemands
    - SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
      I'm just not sure that "demands" is the right framing here. This site is outlining a large series of policy initiatives, ranging from police reforms to housing and transportation policy to specific legislative process details. Such complicated changes need to be subject to civic debate, and compromises might have to be made to account for factors the organizers didn't think of or other groups with similarly strong beliefs.
      - lovehashbrowns 6y ago
        You are correct that these policies are all subject to debate and compromise, but I think "demands" is the perfect way to frame these things. The small picture of these protests is that an unarmed black man died while handcuffed, on his stomach, pleading for his life, with a police officer's knee to the back of his neck. The bigger picture is that systemic racism has been an ongoing issue for decades (but since the country's founding, actually). Oregon itself has quite the history with systemic racism: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism_in_Oregon https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism_in_Oregon So the frustration isn't necessarily that policies are subject to debate or that compromises have to be made; the frustration lies in elected officials that help maintain a level of systemic racism via inaction and non-enforcement. Hence, the particularly aggressive use of "demands" which is also framed around ongoing protests in Portland and elsewhere. This, I think, is far more clear in the use of the phrase "defund the police." A lot of people have issue with this phrase because they think it means entirely eliminating the police force. And yes, some percentage of those who say "defund the police" do mean completely eliminating the police force, but the majority actually mean "divert significant funding from the police department to social programs and health workers." However, there are two issues with that; 1, it's not very succint. 2, it does not adequately express the frustration people have with police.
- refurb 6y ago
  He went to one of the protests to listen to their grievances and ended up getting heckled. Fast forward a few weeks, they started protesting in front of his condo building - shining lasers in the windows, trashing the lobby and shooting fireworks. The mayor said he will be moving out.

oyashirochama 6y ago

Neither method works, you antagonize them, they fight back, you appease them, they ask for more or say its to late. Honestly nuclear option might have been only option for many situations of "mostly peaceful" protests. They ordered dispersal in most of these cases too due to looting and riots. Just because you say you're "press" doesn't absolve you from the law due to riots and damages from looters; for example.

XMPPwocky 6y ago
The interesting thing about this argument is it's independent from whether or not the protests are justified. If there's riots, well, only option is to start moving in and dispersing the crowd. If you appease them, they'll just ask for more. In light of this, would you say the same thing about the treatment of protestors in Hong Kong? If not, why not?