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Some friends of mine did some tests with DMT entities. Apparently they can't solve math problems. I never believed they were anything other than hallucinations
by lilboiluvr69 6y ago
Some friends of mine did some tests with DMT entities. Apparently they can't solve math problems.
I never believed they were anything other than hallucinations, but they were still some of the most positive and meaningful events in my life. I hope one day we'll know enough about consciousness to understand why DMT causes the formation of these seemingly other selves.
- emteycz 6y agoI wonder if this is determined by skill of the person
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- vorpalhex 6y agoAs a layperson reading experiences, it sort of seems to align with a lot of Jungian psychology models. The idea that there's a guiding visualizable other self that provides insight and meaning when visited, but is still ultimately an extension of the self.
- andi999 6y agoI am always wondering. From split brain patients we know that there are two fully functioning halfs. And when you think about it from an IT perspective, it is difficult to imagine that they are fully synchronized (emotionally, information, etc). So basically you have a pair of twins sharing a phone line giving somehow the idea of a single person. I am not surprised that some odd things going on. (The old: left hemisphere math, right art or vice versa has been debunked if I remember correctly)
- anon73044 6y ago>(The old: left hemisphere math, right art or vice versa has been debunked if I remember correctly) As usual with biology, it's a bit more complicated than the '60s explanation ever revealed to the public. https://youtu.be/dFs9WO2B8uI https://youtu.be/dFs9WO2B8uI
- Trasmatta 6y ago> From split brain patients we know that there are two fully functioning halfs I don't think it necessarily shows that. The "two halves" may just be a phenomenon that arises when the brain splits, not something that's normally there. And I believe there have been recent studies that even brought the original split brain conclusions into question, i.e., there might still be communication happening between the two halves.
- indigochill 6y agoWell, he did deliberately induce this state on himself and record the results in The Red Book. And given that he had those experiences, it's no surprise his model of psychology aligns with those who also have. Which is not necessarily to discount it. I'm intrigued by his research and willingness to apply the scientific method to things other scientists would dismiss out-of-hand.
- ncrmro 6y agoI have a copy of the red book that’s still shrink wrapped, it’s big. Think I should open it or read a digital copy now?
- temp0826 6y agoTo the other jungians out there- a note/reminder that the black books are finally being released in October.
- jelliclesfarm 6y agoYou should open it. The art is beautiful. I read a page everyday. Half the book is in Middle German. So..there is that...I just admire the calligraphy.
- leptons 6y agoI have tried DMT more than a few times. Every time I felt a sense of connection to something greater, some would call it "God", and some call it "the Universe", etc. On one trip I caught a glimpse of this and within the trip I moved towards it, curious what it was, and I was pushing closer towards it trying to discover what it was, and then it "shattered" and revealed itself as my own subconscious - that force within me that protects me and guides me and loves me, it was my own self at its purest essence, stripped of all the layers that we construct to deal with the rest of the world. It was a rapturous epiphany, I literally turned into a million smiles and my own subconscious welcomed me "home". I know it probably sounds strange to some, but I do consider it a breakthrough. I haven't really needed to do any DMT since then. "Once you get the message, hang up the phone" - Alan Watts. I got the message. Oh wow, I got that message. I never believed the "aliens" in DMT trips were anything like "aliens", because after all, everything that occurs during a DMT trip is happening within your own brain. These aren't "beings", they are you, yourself, or at least the inner workings of "the self".
- pieceofcakedude 6y agoJust beautiful, thank you for sharing.
- pvarangot 6y agoI see other dimensions, aliens, a higher mathematical order to reality, God, etc... as another way to explain "the subconscious". I think your subconscious manifests itself as what would be easier to understand for your ego, with varying degrees of effectiveness depending on the person. A conspiracy theory fan, a priest, a therapist, or a hardcore fan of David Lynch movies will probably see their inner selves manifest differently when the subconscious pushes through to show itself to ego in a way were it can be seen with our "eyes" and heard with out "ears".
- rootw0rm 6y agoI've had a similar experience and it made me a better person. I wouldn't trade that experience for anything. Thanks for sharing.
- 6y ago
- anchpop 6y agoThere is a classic Slate Star Codex post/short story about whether DMT entities can do math: https://slatestarcodex.com/2015/04/21/universal-love-said-the-cactus-person/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2015/04/21/universal-love-said-th...
- CarelessExpert 6y agoSo, I've not read any of SSC, though obviously the news lately has made me aware of him. But this? This is pure genius. Thank you for the link! So many laugh out loud moments. I particularly enjoyed '“I demand a better answer than that,” I demanded.'
- anchpop 6y agoScott is fond of sentences like that, especially with puns thrown in. I have no idea how he's so good at coming up with them. They took me a moment to understand so I'll explain with an example from this page [0]: “I’m not going to make a deathbed conversion,” Tom said diagnostically. The sentence indicates that Tom is dying and not currently religious, and the word "diagnostically" sounds like a mixture between "die" and "agnostic". They aren't quite funny when explained but when you spend 3 minutes trying to figure one out before it slaps you in the face it's a very good time [0]: https://slatestarcodex.com/tag/tom-swifties/ https://slatestarcodex.com/tag/tom-swifties/ More examples: “I went rock-climbing with my girlfriend,” Tom updated. “The defibrillator worked!” Tom said, repulsed. “My karate instructor died,” Tom said, desensitized.
- TeMPOraL 6y agoWoah. I never got most of the jokes on that post when I first read it. Now it's all obvious (and fun, finally). Thanks!
- awb 6y ago> “Right,” I said. “We’ll have more transcendent joy if you help me out and factor the number than if you just sit there being spiritual and enigmatic.” This is hilarious :) Especially when you think of the entities he's arguing with as different aspects of his own consciousness. There's parts of all of us that want to pursue knowledge of the world around us and those parts that want to pursue our emotions and knowing ourselves.
- johndevor 6y agoI wonder if this lines up with the psychology of Internal Family Systems (IFS): https://www.reddit.com/r/InternalFamilySystems/ https://www.reddit.com/r/InternalFamilySystems/ Basically, that we are a collection of inner-selves, not a single self. IFS provides a framework for working with our inner selves.
- disown 6y agoOr maybe the self is an illusion. https://philosophynow.org/issues/97/The_Illusion_of_the_Self https://philosophynow.org/issues/97/The_Illusion_of_the_Self
- Florin_Andrei 6y agoBoth. There are multiple selves, and each one of them is not as set in stone as we think.
- war1025 6y agoI've given up on reddit since their redesign. I know there is the `old.reddit.com` trick you can do, but I can't be bothered. Is there a non-reddit reference to this "Internal Family Systems" thing? I'd be interested in looking into it more.
- nullsense 6y agoIt's mentioned in The Body Keeps The Score
- earljwagner 6y agoFrom an IFS perspective, it sounds like DMT introduces parts that guide our attention toward the Self. That's different from regular IFS parts - protectors and exiles - that guide our attention away from the Self.
- devilduck 6y agoPossibly because math is a human invention and not actually "the language of the universe" or whatever
- ta1234567890 6y agoWe are capable of holding more than one identity in our minds and switching between them. Some people use that ability to create "characters" (tulpas: https://www.businessinsider.com/hearing-voices-in-your-head-real-life-versus-movies-tulpa-psychiatry-2018-2 https://www.businessinsider.com/hearing-voices-in-your-head-...) that they interact with or even allow to take over their bodies. Apparently some people go as far as replacing themselves with a tulpa they've created (they call this ego-suicide).
- loves_mangoes 6y agoThat's amazing! I did not expect to read about Tulpas on Business Insider, so thank you for that. Somehow I'm not surprised that the tulpa in question is a batpony. There seems to be an interesting intersection between Tulpamancing and My Little Pony. Perhaps something about escapism.
- war1025 6y agoI started watching that video and something about the interview with the "Tulpamancer" just really creeped me out.
- chews 6y agoI think it's because we're watching schizophrenia and a doc who feels it's just rich escapism.
- Retric 6y agoMental illness like schizophrenia are by definition a net negative, that’s why their disorders. It seems strange but people can be very different without mental problems or seem perfectly normal but have severe issues. It’s why some but not all young children with imaginary friends can be considered fine. More strangely some adults have similar imaginary friends which they realize are mental constructs but they still enjoy interacting with them.
- mr_overalls 6y agoWe are also capable of realizing directly that personal identity itself is also construct, a mask we put on to make sense of the world. Seeing through this illusion can be deeply unsettling, as well as deeply liberating. E.g. Buddhist insight into anatta, or non-self. Shinzen Young's description on the nuts and bolts of Shingon Buddhist deity yoga practice is simply fascinating. https://alvinalexander.com/personal/shinzen-young-shingon-shinto-winter-meditation-training/ https://alvinalexander.com/personal/shinzen-young-shingon-sh... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_VizlDWcTA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_VizlDWcTA
- tsumnia 6y ago> Apparently they can't solve math problems. I wonder if math problems, or even simple logic statements, are the most appropriate criteria for interactions.
- dingdingdang 6y agoHmm, depends, it's one way to aim towards objectivity though. Unless of course these being exists in dimensions where base reality itself necessitates a different mathematical makeup ... causing the entities themselves to respond to your presence with "yeah, right, nice try fantasy person, wink-wink, now get out of my day dream"
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- tsumnia 6y agoI was more thinking about how music is a common element for trips. Maybe math problems aren't appropriate because, as you say, it requires an entirely different structure. Music though is very sensory and perceptual so could you elicit say pattern recognition? If you played a sound or pattern but isolate the sound from the participant, could the entity repeat the pattern?
- dingdingdang 6y agoLike the idea of using music but since we have to take into account that the participant's mind acts as the "gate" to the entity it makes little sense to expect the entity to be able to repeat a pattern that has not entered the participant's consciousness. One way this could work however would be if the same entity revealed itself to two participants. Then it would be quite straightforward to see if information/music/other shared by between one participant and the entity could be accessed by the other when participant when communicating with the entity.
- tsumnia 6y ago
- Florin_Andrei 6y ago> they can't solve math problems > I never believed they were anything other than hallucinations I mean, dogs can't do math either, yet they are real. I'm not necessarily arguing for the independent reality of the entities, I'm just saying that's not a super-conclusive test.
- Trasmatta 6y agoI think people generally perceive these entities as being advanced and hyper intelligent, hence the math question. But yeah, still not conclusive either way (but the most likely answer is still that they're constructions of your own mind).
- itronitron 6y agomaybe they are so hyper-intelligent that they let their subconscious handle the math problems
- tsco77 6y agoJust to be pedantic, dogs can count (probably, or something akin to it). https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12357291/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12357291/
- sideshowb 6y agoBut they can't look up
- subsubzero 6y agoWonder how close this phenomena is related with lucid dreaming. The reason I bring it up is back in college I was struggling with an assignment and could not get the solution to a problem. That night I had a extremely vivid lucid dream where I was told the solution to the problem. The crazy thing was I tested it the next morning and it worked. Most likely my subconscious solving the issue but it was extremely strange as the answer was very clear and was not a technique I was used to.
- TheOtherHobbes 6y agoLeaving problems to simmer in the subconscious overnight is a pretty common technique. Results aren't always as vivid as a dream, but it's not unusual to wake up with an "Oh yes - of course" if you prime the problem the day before.
- Florin_Andrei 6y agoBack when chemistry was just getting started and scientists were still trying to figure out the structures of molecules, benzene was a tough issue, probably because folks could not make yet the mental leap to non-linear structures (closed loops). And then one night Kekule dreamed up the benzene ring, and the rest is history.
- pvarangot 6y agoI had both type of experiences, lucid dreaming and something like what's described in the article. While a theory of the subconscious may explain both, they feel completely different. It's like skiing is technically like kicking a can because you use your legs for both, but no one analyses them both from the same framework and gets interesting conclusions or predictions.
- Kiro 6y agoApex Twin claims he's using lucid dreams to make songs: > [...] it’s a technique James claims to be responsible for 80% of the tracks of Selected Ambient Works Volume II. In a 1994 interview he explained, “I go to sleep, dream I’m in my studio with imaginary bits of gear and do a track. Then I wake myself up and recreate it. I can do this in about 20 minutes.” https://www.factmag.com/2017/04/14/funny-little-man-the-facts-and-fictions-of-aphex-twins-mythology/ https://www.factmag.com/2017/04/14/funny-little-man-the-fact...
- Jeff_Brown 6y agoTo play devil's advocate: Math arose largely to deal with the problem of scarce resources. Magical drug-summoned beings might never have needed to do that. To then argue against that: Trippy aliens would not need to confront our simplest kinds of scarcity, like for land or food, in order to need to economize. Any world that offers choices offers tradeoffs by definition. Rational agents facing tradeoffs arrive at math. Unless somehow emotional intelligence is more useful to them than economic rationality.
- angel_j 6y agoHi-tech aliens could send no-tech agents.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- xpaqui 6y agoIn lucid dreams entities can solve math problems to a certain degree. Does it mean that the lucid dream ones are real then?