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I started as a trainee broadcast engineer in London on £17,800 a year in 2003. This left me with £1,082 a month (back then student loan payments were far higher

I started as a trainee broadcast engineer in London on £17,800 a year in 2003. This left me with £1,082 a month (back then student loan payments were far higher than now). Rent for a tiny bedsit with a shared bathroom was £520 a month, 2 mile walk from work. I could live further out, but commuting costs outweighed any savings. That's the equivalent of £828 a month now. Bills were included. You can actually pick up a studio flat for £737 in the same area, which actually looks better - it's about 60 square feet which I think it a little smaller than the one I had, but it has it's own toilet. Council tax is on top of that at £45 a month, but still fits in the budget, just. Assuming the same 50% of take home wage in rent, or a net wage of £1500pcm, would be about £21k/year My £17800 salary in 2003 would be £28,300 today, or net of £1900pcm, so could afford (on the same ratio) £910 a month, which gives you a fair amount of choice at the moment in W14 according to rightmove. I'm surprised as I felt renting was far harder now than 20 years ago, but seems it might be slightly better. Of course rents on tiny studios are presumably depressed because of covid19, I'm not sure what they were this time last year.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
jlokier 6y ago
Where I live, most property agents will do a credit and income check, and would turn you away for not meeting the "minimum income level" for renting those places. Even if you feel you can afford spending 50% of your income, it doesn't follow that you can easily find a landlord who allows it. If you have a bad credit rating, as many people do these days, it will be even more difficult as more landlords check that than income. In my case, where I am currently living, I had insufficient income at the time I moved in to qualify, and was only allowed to rent on the condition that I paid 12 months rent up front. And then I had to do it again the following year. Obviously that's only available to people with decent savings.
- treis 6y ago
  > Where I live, most property agents will do a credit and income check, and would turn you away for not meeting the "minimum income level" for renting those places. This is where room in a shared house comes into play. They're available for $4-500 a month in my city.
  - jlokier 6y ago
    Where I live, there's a minimum income level for shared house rooms as well, and the cost of a room can be 50% of someone's income if they are working but poorly paid, so they won't be allowed it. Luckily rooms are more likely to be rented somewhat informally, or by less stringent agents & landlords, compared with flats, so there's a decent market of these without a hard income requirement, alongside those with the requirement.
- iso1631 6y ago
  But that's no different to 2003 (you could have a guarantor - typically a parent - who would be on the hook for your rent if you didn't pay it) Before I started looking I was under the impression things were harder now then they were in 2003, but it seems not, at least in this one case (tiny studio/bedsits in a dodgy part of west london) -- unless asking prices on rent are massively depressed due to covid. In 2006/7 I lived in Tunbridge wells, paying £800pcm for a 2 bed flat that looked almost identical to this one, although it was in the next door house and had a garage instead of a parking spot. https://www.rightmove.co.uk/properties/84635425#/ https://www.rightmove.co.uk/properties/84635425#/ £800 in 2007 is £1,117.29 today, so a near identical flat for £900 is an interesting price point.
  - user5994461 6y ago
    Go check again, you got everything wrong. ^^ That flat is southeast England in the middle of nowhere. Not london, not greater london by any metric, it's nowhere.
    - iso1631 6y ago
      That's a second example, literally next door to the flat I rented in 2007 in Tunbridge Wells for £800pcm
      - user5994461 6y ago
        You said you were in London though, this is not London, this is countryside in the middle of nowhere. Properties have increased significantly in cities but not in the desolated countryside. No argument there.
  - jlokier 6y ago
    Things seem to have become more difficult to obtain in some cases. Back in 2003, nobody asked me for proof of income for renting. Just basic credit checks (which don't directly know about income or bank balances). Proof of income is more recent. (And difficult if you're self-employed with highly irregular income, I found.) If using a guarantor, a guarantor has to pass similar checks. Guarantor works a lot better for a young person starting out in a cheap-ass room in a shared place, whose parents expect this. For a flat and an older adult with retired parents on a low pension, or their own housing costs, not so much. Good like finding a guarantor if your parents or friends: - don't have enough spare income to cover your rent in addition to their own expenses - don't pass the credit check themselves - can't pass the proof-of-income check themselves - don't have enough assets to use as security - are not happy using their assets as security for you (e.g. their limited life savings or their one and only home) Some people don't have parents, and these days, quite a lot of parents rent precariously too. They would be turned down as guarantors. More parents renting is a factor which has changed in recent years. I imagine most people don't have friends who would be willing to be long term rent guarantors, even if they could be.
lordnacho 6y ago
Similar story, also 2003. Think the pay was £24K, but I had to be in for work quite early in the morning so that limited the location. Rent was £800 a month for new building, but in a not-so-nice neighborhood. It was a 1BR, the sort of size that's big for a student but small for anyone else. Had its own kitchen and bathroom. Moved in with a friend after that, saved about £100 a month, but also in a nicer part of town. Have to say the budget felt stretched at £24K, luckily that went up a lot pretty fast.
- iso1631 6y ago
  > saved about £100 a month Do that every month from age 21 and you'd be able to get a 10% deposit on a house by the time you're 40.
user5994461 6y ago
There aren't studio or one bedroom below about £1200 a month in London, closer to £1500 toward the center. You're talking about Kensington in London? That's the center and one of the most expensive location in the city. Where the fuck do you see a place for £737 in there? Either it's a flatshare (that's a bit low, must be 6+ people) or you confused 737 per month with 737 per week (that'd be £3000 a month, possible for a luxury 1 bedroom in that area the size of what people consider a 2 bedroom, typical ads that come at the top of rightmove).
- iso1631 6y ago
  > Where the fuck do you see a place for £737 in there? The area near "West Kensington" and "Kensington Olympia" tube stations. It's technically in Hammersmith+Fulham. Kensington borough contains(ed) Grenfell, it's not one of the most expensive places in the city, it's varied, like many boroughs. https://www.rightmove.co.uk/properties/49989753#/ https://www.rightmove.co.uk/properties/49989753#/ - £737 https://www.rightmove.co.uk/properties/66191535#/ https://www.rightmove.co.uk/properties/66191535#/ - £758 https://www.rightmove.co.uk/properties/95389700#/ https://www.rightmove.co.uk/properties/95389700#/ - £806 The £806 is prety much what I got for £520, and inflation wise pretty much the same price. I suspect the prices are so low because of covid, I don't have any evidence of that though. Here's a pre-covid article with some average rents: https://www.simplybusiness.co.uk/knowledge/articles/2019/09/average-rent-in-london-guide-for-buy-to-let-landlords/ https://www.simplybusiness.co.uk/knowledge/articles/2019/09/.... Dagenham (Zone 5) studio: £688 https://www.homesandproperty.co.uk/property-news/renting/average-rent-in-london-falls-a139861.html https://www.homesandproperty.co.uk/property-news/renting/ave... reports "Rents in the capital are down 4.2 per cent as tourists stay away and short-let landlords switch to long-term contracts, flooding the market." I suspect rents on tiny bedsit studios are down even more, especially as weekly commuters no longer need them, and young people move to live with parents.
  - user5994461 6y ago
    Wow, they are less than 3x3 meters (10x10 feet) including the corner for shower. The bed is literally touching the cooker/oven in the first one. That explains the £737. Can't even put a desk to do your homework. Nobody would want to live there, especially with COVID. Regular studios in student accommodations go for double that in this area. I've actually seen friends paying as much as £2000 a month, when they come from far or from abroad, don't have the luxury to visit 10 properties and landlord won't rent to students with no income.
selfhoster11 6y ago
TL;DR: London will chew you up and spit you out unless you live so far out that your commute is measured in 1.5-hour increments, or unless you're already rich. A young person is sentenced to renting. My personal story: I lived there up until about a year ago, not far from the center. Being a young person, I earned the usual entry-level software developer salary. I tried to live a relatively frugal lifestyle, which included not going out and spending not a whole lot on personal entertainment costs. The rent was £1500, so I had to rent a flat with my friend. Travel was expensive, and a fixed cost in my circumstances. Bills were not included, so we had to pay those as well. I tried to cut costs as much as I could, and in retrospect maybe I could have cut £80-100 a month from my grocery spending by shopping in cheaper stores, or perhaps even another £50 on top of that if I was willing to trade off some of my sanity/time for the savings. I had some savings, but not a whole lot. The whole time, I was cutting into my savings each month and literally losing my money by staying in London. Even if I tried to save harder, that would get me nowhere nearer to saving up for a deposit for the next few years. I eventually decided to leave the city behind and move to Scotland. Instant quality of life improvement, and I actually got the chance to start building up my savings rather than chipping away at them.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

jlokier 6y ago

Where I live, most property agents will do a credit and income check, and would turn you away for not meeting the "minimum income level" for renting those places. Even if you feel you can afford spending 50% of your income, it doesn't follow that you can easily find a landlord who allows it. If you have a bad credit rating, as many people do these days, it will be even more difficult as more landlords check that than income. In my case, where I am currently living, I had insufficient income at the time I moved in to qualify, and was only allowed to rent on the condition that I paid 12 months rent up front. And then I had to do it again the following year. Obviously that's only available to people with decent savings.

treis 6y ago
> Where I live, most property agents will do a credit and income check, and would turn you away for not meeting the "minimum income level" for renting those places. This is where room in a shared house comes into play. They're available for $4-500 a month in my city.
- jlokier 6y ago
  Where I live, there's a minimum income level for shared house rooms as well, and the cost of a room can be 50% of someone's income if they are working but poorly paid, so they won't be allowed it. Luckily rooms are more likely to be rented somewhat informally, or by less stringent agents & landlords, compared with flats, so there's a decent market of these without a hard income requirement, alongside those with the requirement.
iso1631 6y ago
But that's no different to 2003 (you could have a guarantor - typically a parent - who would be on the hook for your rent if you didn't pay it) Before I started looking I was under the impression things were harder now then they were in 2003, but it seems not, at least in this one case (tiny studio/bedsits in a dodgy part of west london) -- unless asking prices on rent are massively depressed due to covid. In 2006/7 I lived in Tunbridge wells, paying £800pcm for a 2 bed flat that looked almost identical to this one, although it was in the next door house and had a garage instead of a parking spot. https://www.rightmove.co.uk/properties/84635425#/ https://www.rightmove.co.uk/properties/84635425#/ £800 in 2007 is £1,117.29 today, so a near identical flat for £900 is an interesting price point.
- user5994461 6y ago
  Go check again, you got everything wrong. ^^ That flat is southeast England in the middle of nowhere. Not london, not greater london by any metric, it's nowhere.
  - iso1631 6y ago
    That's a second example, literally next door to the flat I rented in 2007 in Tunbridge Wells for £800pcm
    - user5994461 6y ago
      You said you were in London though, this is not London, this is countryside in the middle of nowhere. Properties have increased significantly in cities but not in the desolated countryside. No argument there.
- jlokier 6y ago
  Things seem to have become more difficult to obtain in some cases. Back in 2003, nobody asked me for proof of income for renting. Just basic credit checks (which don't directly know about income or bank balances). Proof of income is more recent. (And difficult if you're self-employed with highly irregular income, I found.) If using a guarantor, a guarantor has to pass similar checks. Guarantor works a lot better for a young person starting out in a cheap-ass room in a shared place, whose parents expect this. For a flat and an older adult with retired parents on a low pension, or their own housing costs, not so much. Good like finding a guarantor if your parents or friends: - don't have enough spare income to cover your rent in addition to their own expenses - don't pass the credit check themselves - can't pass the proof-of-income check themselves - don't have enough assets to use as security - are not happy using their assets as security for you (e.g. their limited life savings or their one and only home) Some people don't have parents, and these days, quite a lot of parents rent precariously too. They would be turned down as guarantors. More parents renting is a factor which has changed in recent years. I imagine most people don't have friends who would be willing to be long term rent guarantors, even if they could be.

lordnacho 6y ago

Similar story, also 2003. Think the pay was £24K, but I had to be in for work quite early in the morning so that limited the location. Rent was £800 a month for new building, but in a not-so-nice neighborhood. It was a 1BR, the sort of size that's big for a student but small for anyone else. Had its own kitchen and bathroom. Moved in with a friend after that, saved about £100 a month, but also in a nicer part of town. Have to say the budget felt stretched at £24K, luckily that went up a lot pretty fast.

iso1631 6y ago
> saved about £100 a month Do that every month from age 21 and you'd be able to get a 10% deposit on a house by the time you're 40.

user5994461 6y ago

There aren't studio or one bedroom below about £1200 a month in London, closer to £1500 toward the center. You're talking about Kensington in London? That's the center and one of the most expensive location in the city. Where the fuck do you see a place for £737 in there? Either it's a flatshare (that's a bit low, must be 6+ people) or you confused 737 per month with 737 per week (that'd be £3000 a month, possible for a luxury 1 bedroom in that area the size of what people consider a 2 bedroom, typical ads that come at the top of rightmove).

iso1631 6y ago
> Where the fuck do you see a place for £737 in there? The area near "West Kensington" and "Kensington Olympia" tube stations. It's technically in Hammersmith+Fulham. Kensington borough contains(ed) Grenfell, it's not one of the most expensive places in the city, it's varied, like many boroughs. https://www.rightmove.co.uk/properties/49989753#/ https://www.rightmove.co.uk/properties/49989753#/ - £737 https://www.rightmove.co.uk/properties/66191535#/ https://www.rightmove.co.uk/properties/66191535#/ - £758 https://www.rightmove.co.uk/properties/95389700#/ https://www.rightmove.co.uk/properties/95389700#/ - £806 The £806 is prety much what I got for £520, and inflation wise pretty much the same price. I suspect the prices are so low because of covid, I don't have any evidence of that though. Here's a pre-covid article with some average rents: https://www.simplybusiness.co.uk/knowledge/articles/2019/09/average-rent-in-london-guide-for-buy-to-let-landlords/ https://www.simplybusiness.co.uk/knowledge/articles/2019/09/.... Dagenham (Zone 5) studio: £688 https://www.homesandproperty.co.uk/property-news/renting/average-rent-in-london-falls-a139861.html https://www.homesandproperty.co.uk/property-news/renting/ave... reports "Rents in the capital are down 4.2 per cent as tourists stay away and short-let landlords switch to long-term contracts, flooding the market." I suspect rents on tiny bedsit studios are down even more, especially as weekly commuters no longer need them, and young people move to live with parents.
- user5994461 6y ago
  Wow, they are less than 3x3 meters (10x10 feet) including the corner for shower. The bed is literally touching the cooker/oven in the first one. That explains the £737. Can't even put a desk to do your homework. Nobody would want to live there, especially with COVID. Regular studios in student accommodations go for double that in this area. I've actually seen friends paying as much as £2000 a month, when they come from far or from abroad, don't have the luxury to visit 10 properties and landlord won't rent to students with no income.

selfhoster11 6y ago

TL;DR: London will chew you up and spit you out unless you live so far out that your commute is measured in 1.5-hour increments, or unless you're already rich. A young person is sentenced to renting. My personal story: I lived there up until about a year ago, not far from the center. Being a young person, I earned the usual entry-level software developer salary. I tried to live a relatively frugal lifestyle, which included not going out and spending not a whole lot on personal entertainment costs. The rent was £1500, so I had to rent a flat with my friend. Travel was expensive, and a fixed cost in my circumstances. Bills were not included, so we had to pay those as well. I tried to cut costs as much as I could, and in retrospect maybe I could have cut £80-100 a month from my grocery spending by shopping in cheaper stores, or perhaps even another £50 on top of that if I was willing to trade off some of my sanity/time for the savings. I had some savings, but not a whole lot. The whole time, I was cutting into my savings each month and literally losing my money by staying in London. Even if I tried to save harder, that would get me nowhere nearer to saving up for a deposit for the next few years. I eventually decided to leave the city behind and move to Scotland. Instant quality of life improvement, and I actually got the chance to start building up my savings rather than chipping away at them.