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Honestly, this is why we need the Web. But Apple even blocks that since they don’t allow any browser engine apart from Safari, meaning that there is no - Add t

Honestly, this is why we need the Web. But Apple even blocks that since they don’t allow any browser engine apart from Safari, meaning that there is no - Add to homescreen dialog - Background sync - Proper push notifications - Proper WASM support (a lot of features are missing) Honestly, at this point, the government should step in, like they did at the end of the last century with Microsoft. Walled gardens hurt innovation a lot, and the App Store in combination with the restricted web on iOS are the ultimate expression of the former.

nlitened 6y ago
Why wouldn't you use Android then? I would personally like to continue paying higher prices to protect myself from low-quality background-syncing byte-code-obfuscated web-pages with push notifications, please.
- ActorNightly 6y ago
  This doesnt happen though. Look at the state of web apps accessed through your computers browser - there is no issues with quality if you want a customer base.
  - nlitened 6y ago
    My computer browser is indeed fine, but my mother's -- is an entirely different story. I am really happy I can still get her an iPad these days.
    - romanoderoma 6y ago
      My mother buys books when she wants to read My mother uses her phone to actually call people There's no risk she's gonna use apps that she doesn't know My mother is not stupid, for sure she' s not more stupid than me. I'm growing tired of this false and ageist retohric
      - srtjstjsj 6y ago
        Denying the existence of someone's mother is quite rude.
        romanoderoma 6y ago
        My mom exists, she's 74, she never had a malware problem in her life. Maybe she's smarter than us all...
        dang 6y ago
        "Don't feed egregious comments by replying; flag them instead." https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
        deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
        romanoderoma 6y ago
        Can I ask what's "egregious" about my comment? an I not say that my mom, albeit being older than me, does not need her son's protection from malware and certainly does not need Apple to tell her what's right, just because she's older? Is ageism permitted on HN?
- spiderfarmer 6y ago
  Something can be said for both. I have built a couple of 15 year old websites with passionate users who have been begging me for an app. Not to replicate the website, which works perfectly on mobile and is very up to date with best practices. They just want it for push notifications. I can switch to Android, yes. But my users won't switch phones for just my website. And I can recommend something like Pushover, but that's too complicated for most users. Just enable the API Apple, I bet you already have it hidden behind some flags.
  - nlitened 6y ago
    Why wouldn't you just do exactly what your users passionately want, and make a small app just for notifications? You may even make it paid, so that your efforts are compensated -- I am sure, the users will be happy to support you.
    - spiderfarmer 6y ago
      I am working on it. But as a web developer this "small app" and everything that comes with it is easily hundreds of hours of work, just to clumsily recreate functionality that's already working in other browsers.
      - jdhawk 6y ago
        Email them? SMS Them? Its not pure notifications, but its far easier to implement.
        danielscrubs 6y ago
        Email would get drowned with all the other apps with the same idea, which is exactly why Apple shouldn’t allow it.
        remexre 6y ago
        Why Apple shouldn't allow websites to email you instead of causing those websites to create iOS apps?
- stale2002 6y ago
  > to protect myself from low-quality background-syncing byte-code-obfuscated web-pages I am not sure why other people being allowed to install other browsers on their phone would force you to do anything.
  - tonyedgecombe 6y ago
    Because app developers will use other browser engines allowing them to ignore any of the privacy constraints in place at the moment.
    - manigandham 6y ago
      That's already possible, and an app has far more access to your device and data anyway.
      - CiaranMcNulty 6y ago
        Apps cannot currently use other browser engines on iOS
        manigandham 6y ago
        Most of the web privacy settings are specific to Safari, not the Webkit browser engine. Also an app can access and send more data than a browser window. Anything the webview can block can just get transmitted by the app itself separately. So there's no reason to block 3rd-party browser engines as the GP post says.
        romanoderoma 6y ago
        safari is enough and has enough bugs to be a totally good vector for malware The real security issue is: if a bug in Safari is found (it happens quite often) users cannot use another browser in the meantime.
        deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
- snemvalts 6y ago
  Even if they switched to Android, they'd still have to ensure iOS compatibility since Apple has ~60% of the smartphone market in the US. Any abusive behaviour from Apple at this monopolistic stage is just asking for an antitrust case & resolution.
  - eddieroger 6y ago
    That's a misuse of "monopolistic" - 60% is not a majority to the point of no competition. Any developer could write an Android-only app if they wanted, they just don't do it.
    - srtjstjsj 6y ago
      Most consumers only handle one phone.
      - CamJN 6y ago
        So? Apple has a monopoly on Apple products? Big deal. Ford has a monopoly on Ford trucks, Sony has a monopoly on playstations.
  - valuearb 6y ago
    Apple has never had even 50% of the US smartphone market. https://www.counterpointresearch.com/us-market-smartphone-share/ https://www.counterpointresearch.com/us-market-smartphone-sh...
    - srtjstjsj 6y ago
      iOS is 60% of the mobile (phone+tablet) market https://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/mobile/united-states-of-america https://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/mobile/united-sta...
      - leptons 6y ago
        >Statcounter is a web analytics service. Our tracking code is installed on more than 2 million sites globally. Sorry but this is not an effective way to gauge market share of a browser or a platform. That 60% figure you're throwing around is not an absolute metric. It's based only on visitors to websites that use the "Statcounter" tracking code. There definitely is a large margin of error using this to gather statistics about market share. In comparison, the other commenter's link is actually more accurate because: >This report is one of the series of reports which tracks mobile handset: Smartphone and Feature Phone shipments every quarter for more than 140 brands covering more than 95% of the total device shipments in the industry. Tracking site visitors based on sporadic implementation of a tracker, vs getting actual numbers of units shipped/sold. I'm going with the actual numbers, not the sort-of-guessing of Statcounter.
- romanoderoma 6y ago
  > I would personally like to continue paying higher prices to protect myself from low-quality background-syncing byte-code-obfuscated web-pages with push notifications are you really saying you would pay higher prices because you can' t press the "no" button and never visit the same website again?
  - scarface74 6y ago
    Along with every time I have to press OK to the “we used cookies” dialog, using the web is already like a “punch the monkey” game.
    - spideymans 6y ago
      These modern web APIs have a massive user experience problem, and if we want the web to be truly competitive with native, we'd be foolish to ignore that. Beyond the "punch the monkey" game you mention, another massive problem is that web push notifications have just become another vector to deliver spam to users. If you look at devices belonging to "normal" users, you'll often see dozens of spammy web notifications (pornographic content, "30% off, BUY NOW", etc...). And because these are average users, they don't necessarily understand how to configure their devices to reduce or eliminate the spam. Web push notifications needs a way to proactively filter out those that abuse the API, otherwise its doomed to become just another vector for spam that pisses off end users.
    - romanoderoma 6y ago
      I'm angry at Firefox because it was the only browser that I trust that allowed me to have extensions to solve my problems with bad websites on mobile and they removed them. But bad websites are not something we are going to get rid of using only iPhones...
      - scarface74 6y ago
        The difference is that notification spam on the web is allowed to escape the sandbox. Because of the punch the monkey nature of the web, I inadvertently clicked “allow notifications” on both PCWorld and Tom’s Hardware on different occasions - they both spammed me at least once a day. But not enough to figure out how to disable it. To get rid of the cookie notifications, I can at least set web pages I go to default to reader view.
- t-writescode 6y ago
  Privacy concerns about Google and security updates at the mercy of terrible carriers. But those reasons are weakening.
  - Maximus9000 6y ago
    I totally agree. Apple is great for privacy - and that's important to me - but I'm slowly starting to think I might move to something else. Sadly, it seems my only real option is Android. I miss windows phone and blackberry.
  - jasonv 6y ago
    I agree with those reasons, not sure my will is weakening, so I'll add: vendor versions of Android, the dreaded "Android" slowdown, and slower/choppier performance - generally - when comparing latest releases of hardware & software.
  - the8472 6y ago
    > and security updates at the mercy of terrible carriers. Buy the hardware, install lineageos, insert SIM?
    - matheusmoreira 6y ago
      Is LineageOS the most trustworthy aftermarket smartphone OS out there? What makes it so?
      - t-writescode 6y ago
        Aren't I still bound by a GMail account for login and contact information, so if Google randomly decides to ban my account (see what happened to the viewers of a Markiplier stream), I'm in trouble?
        yjftsjthsd-h 6y ago
        How so? Lineage works without gapps, although obviously you then lose access to those services, including the Play Store.
- Wowfunhappy 6y ago
  > Why wouldn't you use Android then? Frankly, because everyone I know uses iMessage.
- chipotle_coyote 6y ago
  Safari on macOS supports push notifications and it hasn't intrinsically been a bad thing -- at worst, I have to tell a web site "no, I don't want your notifications." They're opt-in rather than opt-out like native app notifications are. The higher prices you and I are paying aren't protecting us from "low-quality" notifications as it is, anyway. At any rate, maybe you're so worried about single-page web apps being bad actors that you're happy Apple so severely hamstrings them, but I... just can't see a lot to worry about there. And if Apple let PWAs be even a little better on iOS than they are now, it would go at least some distance toward ameliorating complaints about the App Store.
  - spideymans 6y ago
    >They're opt-in rather than opt-out like native app notifications are Native iOS notifications are opt-in
  - tynorf 6y ago
    Just a point of clarification: native app notifications on iOS are absolutely opt-in. If the app wants to send notifications it requires a dialogue and user confirmation. Disappointingly, Apple makes an exception for their first party apps.
    - chipotle_coyote 6y ago
      Thanks. It may be that the exception was stuck in my head. :)
- arendtio 6y ago
  This answer is wrong on so many levels... I don't know why Apple is allowed to keep other browser engines out of their system, but probably just because the relevant people just don't understand that the Chrome/FF/etc. on iOS are just a Safari with a different UI and that it gives Apple about half (depending on country; in the US probably more) of the mobile browser share and users just the chance to either use Android or be stuck with Safari. In addition, the author obviously doesn't know that the before mentioned push notification API is not just used for regular push notifications, but is also required for other use-cases like messengers for example.
  - the_lucifer 6y ago
    Playing the devils advocate here. This browser restriction is what I'd wager is keeping the non-chromium browser market at a substantial proportion.
    - arendtio 6y ago
      I am wondering what you are referring to with 'non-chromium' browser market. Typically people don't complain about chromium-based browsers, but about the dominance of Webkit-based browsers (Safari, Chrome, Opera, Edge, etc.) and from that perspective there is more or less just Firefox left. Nevertheless, that is besides the point as the rendering engine is not the sole source of browser differences. I am not saying the Googles high market share isn't a problem itself, but that Apple is abusing their market position to hold back the development of the web (by not implementing relevant APIs and not allowing competing browser engines on their platform).
      - pseudalopex 6y ago
        Google forked WebKit 7 years ago.
      - tekknik 6y ago
        > Typically people don't complain about chromium-based browsers... In my neck of the woods people most definitely do complain about Chrome, specifically the lack of privacy from being a Google product.
Razengan 6y ago
> there is no - Add to homescreen dialog - Background sync - Proper push notifications All of those sound like things that will be abused by the majority of developers the minute they are allowed to inflict them upon users, either willingly or commanded to by their overlords in the name of ""Engagement""
- lern_too_spel 6y ago
  I have not seen these things abused yet. The user agent prevents it.
  - nemothekid 6y ago
    Of course you haven’t seen them abused yet, iOS doesn’t allow it. I remember developers abusing notifications in Android Cupcake.
    - lern_too_spel 6y ago
      I don't use iOS. I use only mobile and desktop OSes that allow these things. I still haven't seen them abused.
  - spideymans 6y ago
    There are already countless websites abusing the web notifications API to push spam to end users. You're probably savvy enough to effortlessly avoid it, but the average end user often is not. We can't keep ignoring the the UX issues with a lot of these web APIs if we want them to be successful. Users don't care to philosophize about the open web, they just want their shit to work. That's what Apple iOS is providing them, and they will continue flocking to iOS until they're presented with a better alternative.
    - lern_too_spel 6y ago
      Reasonable implementations let users easily block the notifications after receiving them. It doesn't require much savviness.
Razengan 6y ago
> Walled gardens hurt innovation a lot How? What do you even define as """innovation"""? Honest question, I'd love to see some actual answers here instead of the usual canned hyperbole. So far Apple's users are mostly satisfied with them, happily voting with their wallets, and the only people complaining about Apple are mostly the developers and companies who want unfettered access to iOS' users, and I haven't heard any good reasons from them other than "we want to maximize our own profits."
- oarsinsync 6y ago
  One example I saw cited recently is the Web browser itself. This is according to one of the original iPhone developers at Apple: > Apple’s iOS rules would not have allowed for the invention of the web browser. Let that sink in. They would have rejected one of the most important technical innovations in the history of computing. Microsoft‘s bully tactic of making IE free seems quaint in comparison. > But here’s the kicker: think of all the other amazing ideas that haven’t gotten a chance to be invented because they aren’t allowed on mobile devices. Mosaic happened less than 10 years after the Macintosh. We very well might have already had a browser-caliber invention by now. > Just for people asking: the flagrant violations of AppStore policy that web browsers would be rejected for in this hypothetical are: > 1) Running outside code > 2) Allowing payments that circumvent Apple’s IAP > 3) Allowing access to NSFW content Source: https://twitter.com/tolmasky/status/1297199788316692480 https://twitter.com/tolmasky/status/1297199788316692480 More commentary: https://mjtsai.com/blog/2020/08/25/potential/ https://mjtsai.com/blog/2020/08/25/potential/ It’s hard to give specific examples about innovation that hasn’t happened, if only because not everyone is sufficiently innovative to come up with truly groundbreaking ideas. I doubt any of the original Mosaic developers had any idea just how important their original innovation would become.
  - Razengan 6y ago
    I get what you're saying, but right now, in the current state of the industry, here's the thing: People are free to "innovate" and experiment and invent on Android and the PC, and if an innovation is deemed desirable on Apple's curated platform — which they are perfectly within their rights to control, and millions of users continue to be happy with that — then Apple will make a provision for it. On iOS, there would be a whole host of problems with allowing third-party browser engines and app stores that the people clamoring for looser restrictions have yet to address: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24469664 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24469664 Not the least of which is: How would you enforce a user's settings for privacy and parental controls on third-party browsers and app stores?
valuearb 6y ago
Many Customers prefer a walled garden.
- Razengan 6y ago
  Exactly. Has anyone here even been in an actual walled garden? https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=walled+garden https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=walled+garden They look like pretty fucking pleasant places to be in!
  - fanatic2pope 6y ago
    Look at the lovely flowers! https://biodynamicsbda.files.wordpress.com/2014/11/flower-garden.jpg https://biodynamicsbda.files.wordpress.com/2014/11/flower-ga...
lolsal 6y ago
It boggles my mind that a company makes a fairly innocuous decision (which you would expect consumers to punish them for) like requiring all web views to use the same renderer as Safari, and there are people like you rushing to have the government jump in and regulate "the kind of rendering for web pages that a private company allows on their devices". Seems like total insanity to me and I don't understand it.
- Razengan 6y ago
  > Seems like total insanity to me and I don't understand it. They want to tear down Apple's defenses so they can feast unhindered upon the billions of users as they are rendered helpless. Honestly, any entity that constantly cries foul about the high bars set up by Apple, makes me very wary of any product from that entity.
- rangoon626 6y ago
  Apple does not own the device though. If they own the device, then I want my 1k back.
  - lolsal 6y ago
    Buyer beware? Were you under the impression whatsoever that you were buying 'free' hardware?
- saagarjha 6y ago
  How could customers punish Apple for that, and that specifically? (I'm being careful with my wording to exclude the response of "switch to Android", because that is not a punishment for that thing specifically–the fact that people don't switch just means Android is worse to them, not that they agree with this particular part of the iOS.)
  - millstone 6y ago
    One way would be if major web apps launched and iOS users complained about being unable to use them. For example, Spotify Web Player launched without desktop Safari support. If macOS only had Safari, users might have complained and put pressure on Apple to change it.
RandallBrown 6y ago
You can definitely add websites to your home screen on iOS.
- api 6y ago
  I do this for Facebook to avoid summoning that demon on to my phone.
- cpmsmith 6y ago
  By "dialog", they likely mean an API with which to prompt the user to add it, like they have for apps on the App Store.
- dhagz 6y ago
  I think they're referring to PWA-style "Add to Homescreen", which I agree is a weak point of iOS/MobileSafari. I also wonder why there isn't good/any support for WASM in Safari.
  - RandallBrown 6y ago
    Does android provide a way to launch this dialog from within the website? iOS has a PWA-style add to home screen dialog, but it's part of Safari. It's accessed from the share sheet.
    - mikewhy 6y ago
      Chrome on Android will indeed present an "add to homescreen" dialog when the user visits a PWA. https://web.dev/promote-install/#browser-promotion https://web.dev/promote-install/#browser-promotion
robotresearcher 6y ago
Safari -> share icon -> Add to homescreen
millstone 6y ago
The web does not solve the problem identified in the post. Nothing prevents Google from releasing new versions of Chrome with insufficient warning, and breaking sites. An example of just that is https://www.theverge.com/2019/11/15/20966237/google-chrome-white-tab-screen-crash-experiment-it-admins https://www.theverge.com/2019/11/15/20966237/google-chrome-w...
kaishin 6y ago
Oh please point me to the latest Web innovations that do something else other than track me or pester me with junk I don't need.

nlitened 6y ago

Why wouldn't you use Android then? I would personally like to continue paying higher prices to protect myself from low-quality background-syncing byte-code-obfuscated web-pages with push notifications, please.

ActorNightly 6y ago
This doesnt happen though. Look at the state of web apps accessed through your computers browser - there is no issues with quality if you want a customer base.
- nlitened 6y ago
  My computer browser is indeed fine, but my mother's -- is an entirely different story. I am really happy I can still get her an iPad these days.
  - romanoderoma 6y ago
    My mother buys books when she wants to read My mother uses her phone to actually call people There's no risk she's gonna use apps that she doesn't know My mother is not stupid, for sure she' s not more stupid than me. I'm growing tired of this false and ageist retohric
    - srtjstjsj 6y ago
      Denying the existence of someone's mother is quite rude.
      - romanoderoma 6y ago
        My mom exists, she's 74, she never had a malware problem in her life. Maybe she's smarter than us all...
      - dang 6y ago
        "Don't feed egregious comments by replying; flag them instead." https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
        deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
        romanoderoma 6y ago
        Can I ask what's "egregious" about my comment? an I not say that my mom, albeit being older than me, does not need her son's protection from malware and certainly does not need Apple to tell her what's right, just because she's older? Is ageism permitted on HN?
spiderfarmer 6y ago
Something can be said for both. I have built a couple of 15 year old websites with passionate users who have been begging me for an app. Not to replicate the website, which works perfectly on mobile and is very up to date with best practices. They just want it for push notifications. I can switch to Android, yes. But my users won't switch phones for just my website. And I can recommend something like Pushover, but that's too complicated for most users. Just enable the API Apple, I bet you already have it hidden behind some flags.
- nlitened 6y ago
  Why wouldn't you just do exactly what your users passionately want, and make a small app just for notifications? You may even make it paid, so that your efforts are compensated -- I am sure, the users will be happy to support you.
  - spiderfarmer 6y ago
    I am working on it. But as a web developer this "small app" and everything that comes with it is easily hundreds of hours of work, just to clumsily recreate functionality that's already working in other browsers.
    - jdhawk 6y ago
      Email them? SMS Them? Its not pure notifications, but its far easier to implement.
      - danielscrubs 6y ago
        Email would get drowned with all the other apps with the same idea, which is exactly why Apple shouldn’t allow it.
        remexre 6y ago
        Why Apple shouldn't allow websites to email you instead of causing those websites to create iOS apps?
stale2002 6y ago
> to protect myself from low-quality background-syncing byte-code-obfuscated web-pages I am not sure why other people being allowed to install other browsers on their phone would force you to do anything.
- tonyedgecombe 6y ago
  Because app developers will use other browser engines allowing them to ignore any of the privacy constraints in place at the moment.
  - manigandham 6y ago
    That's already possible, and an app has far more access to your device and data anyway.
    - CiaranMcNulty 6y ago
      Apps cannot currently use other browser engines on iOS
      - manigandham 6y ago
        Most of the web privacy settings are specific to Safari, not the Webkit browser engine. Also an app can access and send more data than a browser window. Anything the webview can block can just get transmitted by the app itself separately. So there's no reason to block 3rd-party browser engines as the GP post says.
      - romanoderoma 6y ago
        safari is enough and has enough bugs to be a totally good vector for malware The real security issue is: if a bug in Safari is found (it happens quite often) users cannot use another browser in the meantime.
        deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
snemvalts 6y ago
Even if they switched to Android, they'd still have to ensure iOS compatibility since Apple has ~60% of the smartphone market in the US. Any abusive behaviour from Apple at this monopolistic stage is just asking for an antitrust case & resolution.
- eddieroger 6y ago
  That's a misuse of "monopolistic" - 60% is not a majority to the point of no competition. Any developer could write an Android-only app if they wanted, they just don't do it.
  - srtjstjsj 6y ago
    Most consumers only handle one phone.
    - CamJN 6y ago
      So? Apple has a monopoly on Apple products? Big deal. Ford has a monopoly on Ford trucks, Sony has a monopoly on playstations.
- valuearb 6y ago
  Apple has never had even 50% of the US smartphone market. https://www.counterpointresearch.com/us-market-smartphone-share/ https://www.counterpointresearch.com/us-market-smartphone-sh...
  - srtjstjsj 6y ago
    iOS is 60% of the mobile (phone+tablet) market https://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/mobile/united-states-of-america https://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/mobile/united-sta...
    - leptons 6y ago
      >Statcounter is a web analytics service. Our tracking code is installed on more than 2 million sites globally. Sorry but this is not an effective way to gauge market share of a browser or a platform. That 60% figure you're throwing around is not an absolute metric. It's based only on visitors to websites that use the "Statcounter" tracking code. There definitely is a large margin of error using this to gather statistics about market share. In comparison, the other commenter's link is actually more accurate because: >This report is one of the series of reports which tracks mobile handset: Smartphone and Feature Phone shipments every quarter for more than 140 brands covering more than 95% of the total device shipments in the industry. Tracking site visitors based on sporadic implementation of a tracker, vs getting actual numbers of units shipped/sold. I'm going with the actual numbers, not the sort-of-guessing of Statcounter.
romanoderoma 6y ago
> I would personally like to continue paying higher prices to protect myself from low-quality background-syncing byte-code-obfuscated web-pages with push notifications are you really saying you would pay higher prices because you can' t press the "no" button and never visit the same website again?
- scarface74 6y ago
  Along with every time I have to press OK to the “we used cookies” dialog, using the web is already like a “punch the monkey” game.
  - spideymans 6y ago
    These modern web APIs have a massive user experience problem, and if we want the web to be truly competitive with native, we'd be foolish to ignore that. Beyond the "punch the monkey" game you mention, another massive problem is that web push notifications have just become another vector to deliver spam to users. If you look at devices belonging to "normal" users, you'll often see dozens of spammy web notifications (pornographic content, "30% off, BUY NOW", etc...). And because these are average users, they don't necessarily understand how to configure their devices to reduce or eliminate the spam. Web push notifications needs a way to proactively filter out those that abuse the API, otherwise its doomed to become just another vector for spam that pisses off end users.
  - romanoderoma 6y ago
    I'm angry at Firefox because it was the only browser that I trust that allowed me to have extensions to solve my problems with bad websites on mobile and they removed them. But bad websites are not something we are going to get rid of using only iPhones...
    - scarface74 6y ago
      The difference is that notification spam on the web is allowed to escape the sandbox. Because of the punch the monkey nature of the web, I inadvertently clicked “allow notifications” on both PCWorld and Tom’s Hardware on different occasions - they both spammed me at least once a day. But not enough to figure out how to disable it. To get rid of the cookie notifications, I can at least set web pages I go to default to reader view.
t-writescode 6y ago
Privacy concerns about Google and security updates at the mercy of terrible carriers. But those reasons are weakening.
- Maximus9000 6y ago
  I totally agree. Apple is great for privacy - and that's important to me - but I'm slowly starting to think I might move to something else. Sadly, it seems my only real option is Android. I miss windows phone and blackberry.
- jasonv 6y ago
  I agree with those reasons, not sure my will is weakening, so I'll add: vendor versions of Android, the dreaded "Android" slowdown, and slower/choppier performance - generally - when comparing latest releases of hardware & software.
- the8472 6y ago
  > and security updates at the mercy of terrible carriers. Buy the hardware, install lineageos, insert SIM?
  - matheusmoreira 6y ago
    Is LineageOS the most trustworthy aftermarket smartphone OS out there? What makes it so?
    - t-writescode 6y ago
      Aren't I still bound by a GMail account for login and contact information, so if Google randomly decides to ban my account (see what happened to the viewers of a Markiplier stream), I'm in trouble?
      - yjftsjthsd-h 6y ago
        How so? Lineage works without gapps, although obviously you then lose access to those services, including the Play Store.
Wowfunhappy 6y ago
> Why wouldn't you use Android then? Frankly, because everyone I know uses iMessage.
chipotle_coyote 6y ago
Safari on macOS supports push notifications and it hasn't intrinsically been a bad thing -- at worst, I have to tell a web site "no, I don't want your notifications." They're opt-in rather than opt-out like native app notifications are. The higher prices you and I are paying aren't protecting us from "low-quality" notifications as it is, anyway. At any rate, maybe you're so worried about single-page web apps being bad actors that you're happy Apple so severely hamstrings them, but I... just can't see a lot to worry about there. And if Apple let PWAs be even a little better on iOS than they are now, it would go at least some distance toward ameliorating complaints about the App Store.
- spideymans 6y ago
  >They're opt-in rather than opt-out like native app notifications are Native iOS notifications are opt-in
- tynorf 6y ago
  Just a point of clarification: native app notifications on iOS are absolutely opt-in. If the app wants to send notifications it requires a dialogue and user confirmation. Disappointingly, Apple makes an exception for their first party apps.
  - chipotle_coyote 6y ago
    Thanks. It may be that the exception was stuck in my head. :)
arendtio 6y ago
This answer is wrong on so many levels... I don't know why Apple is allowed to keep other browser engines out of their system, but probably just because the relevant people just don't understand that the Chrome/FF/etc. on iOS are just a Safari with a different UI and that it gives Apple about half (depending on country; in the US probably more) of the mobile browser share and users just the chance to either use Android or be stuck with Safari. In addition, the author obviously doesn't know that the before mentioned push notification API is not just used for regular push notifications, but is also required for other use-cases like messengers for example.
- the_lucifer 6y ago
  Playing the devils advocate here. This browser restriction is what I'd wager is keeping the non-chromium browser market at a substantial proportion.
  - arendtio 6y ago
    I am wondering what you are referring to with 'non-chromium' browser market. Typically people don't complain about chromium-based browsers, but about the dominance of Webkit-based browsers (Safari, Chrome, Opera, Edge, etc.) and from that perspective there is more or less just Firefox left. Nevertheless, that is besides the point as the rendering engine is not the sole source of browser differences. I am not saying the Googles high market share isn't a problem itself, but that Apple is abusing their market position to hold back the development of the web (by not implementing relevant APIs and not allowing competing browser engines on their platform).
    - pseudalopex 6y ago
      Google forked WebKit 7 years ago.
    - tekknik 6y ago
      > Typically people don't complain about chromium-based browsers... In my neck of the woods people most definitely do complain about Chrome, specifically the lack of privacy from being a Google product.

Razengan 6y ago

> there is no - Add to homescreen dialog - Background sync - Proper push notifications All of those sound like things that will be abused by the majority of developers the minute they are allowed to inflict them upon users, either willingly or commanded to by their overlords in the name of ""Engagement""

lern_too_spel 6y ago
I have not seen these things abused yet. The user agent prevents it.
- nemothekid 6y ago
  Of course you haven’t seen them abused yet, iOS doesn’t allow it. I remember developers abusing notifications in Android Cupcake.
  - lern_too_spel 6y ago
    I don't use iOS. I use only mobile and desktop OSes that allow these things. I still haven't seen them abused.
- spideymans 6y ago
  There are already countless websites abusing the web notifications API to push spam to end users. You're probably savvy enough to effortlessly avoid it, but the average end user often is not. We can't keep ignoring the the UX issues with a lot of these web APIs if we want them to be successful. Users don't care to philosophize about the open web, they just want their shit to work. That's what Apple iOS is providing them, and they will continue flocking to iOS until they're presented with a better alternative.
  - lern_too_spel 6y ago
    Reasonable implementations let users easily block the notifications after receiving them. It doesn't require much savviness.

Razengan 6y ago

> Walled gardens hurt innovation a lot How? What do you even define as """innovation"""? Honest question, I'd love to see some actual answers here instead of the usual canned hyperbole. So far Apple's users are mostly satisfied with them, happily voting with their wallets, and the only people complaining about Apple are mostly the developers and companies who want unfettered access to iOS' users, and I haven't heard any good reasons from them other than "we want to maximize our own profits."

oarsinsync 6y ago
One example I saw cited recently is the Web browser itself. This is according to one of the original iPhone developers at Apple: > Apple’s iOS rules would not have allowed for the invention of the web browser. Let that sink in. They would have rejected one of the most important technical innovations in the history of computing. Microsoft‘s bully tactic of making IE free seems quaint in comparison. > But here’s the kicker: think of all the other amazing ideas that haven’t gotten a chance to be invented because they aren’t allowed on mobile devices. Mosaic happened less than 10 years after the Macintosh. We very well might have already had a browser-caliber invention by now. > Just for people asking: the flagrant violations of AppStore policy that web browsers would be rejected for in this hypothetical are: > 1) Running outside code > 2) Allowing payments that circumvent Apple’s IAP > 3) Allowing access to NSFW content Source: https://twitter.com/tolmasky/status/1297199788316692480 https://twitter.com/tolmasky/status/1297199788316692480 More commentary: https://mjtsai.com/blog/2020/08/25/potential/ https://mjtsai.com/blog/2020/08/25/potential/ It’s hard to give specific examples about innovation that hasn’t happened, if only because not everyone is sufficiently innovative to come up with truly groundbreaking ideas. I doubt any of the original Mosaic developers had any idea just how important their original innovation would become.
- Razengan 6y ago
  I get what you're saying, but right now, in the current state of the industry, here's the thing: People are free to "innovate" and experiment and invent on Android and the PC, and if an innovation is deemed desirable on Apple's curated platform — which they are perfectly within their rights to control, and millions of users continue to be happy with that — then Apple will make a provision for it. On iOS, there would be a whole host of problems with allowing third-party browser engines and app stores that the people clamoring for looser restrictions have yet to address: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24469664 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24469664 Not the least of which is: How would you enforce a user's settings for privacy and parental controls on third-party browsers and app stores?

valuearb 6y ago

Many Customers prefer a walled garden.

Razengan 6y ago
Exactly. Has anyone here even been in an actual walled garden? https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=walled+garden https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=walled+garden They look like pretty fucking pleasant places to be in!
- fanatic2pope 6y ago
  Look at the lovely flowers! https://biodynamicsbda.files.wordpress.com/2014/11/flower-garden.jpg https://biodynamicsbda.files.wordpress.com/2014/11/flower-ga...

lolsal 6y ago

It boggles my mind that a company makes a fairly innocuous decision (which you would expect consumers to punish them for) like requiring all web views to use the same renderer as Safari, and there are people like you rushing to have the government jump in and regulate "the kind of rendering for web pages that a private company allows on their devices". Seems like total insanity to me and I don't understand it.

Razengan 6y ago
> Seems like total insanity to me and I don't understand it. They want to tear down Apple's defenses so they can feast unhindered upon the billions of users as they are rendered helpless. Honestly, any entity that constantly cries foul about the high bars set up by Apple, makes me very wary of any product from that entity.
rangoon626 6y ago
Apple does not own the device though. If they own the device, then I want my 1k back.
- lolsal 6y ago
  Buyer beware? Were you under the impression whatsoever that you were buying 'free' hardware?
saagarjha 6y ago
How could customers punish Apple for that, and that specifically? (I'm being careful with my wording to exclude the response of "switch to Android", because that is not a punishment for that thing specifically–the fact that people don't switch just means Android is worse to them, not that they agree with this particular part of the iOS.)
- millstone 6y ago
  One way would be if major web apps launched and iOS users complained about being unable to use them. For example, Spotify Web Player launched without desktop Safari support. If macOS only had Safari, users might have complained and put pressure on Apple to change it.

RandallBrown 6y ago

You can definitely add websites to your home screen on iOS.

api 6y ago
I do this for Facebook to avoid summoning that demon on to my phone.
cpmsmith 6y ago
By "dialog", they likely mean an API with which to prompt the user to add it, like they have for apps on the App Store.
dhagz 6y ago
I think they're referring to PWA-style "Add to Homescreen", which I agree is a weak point of iOS/MobileSafari. I also wonder why there isn't good/any support for WASM in Safari.
- RandallBrown 6y ago
  Does android provide a way to launch this dialog from within the website? iOS has a PWA-style add to home screen dialog, but it's part of Safari. It's accessed from the share sheet.
  - mikewhy 6y ago
    Chrome on Android will indeed present an "add to homescreen" dialog when the user visits a PWA. https://web.dev/promote-install/#browser-promotion https://web.dev/promote-install/#browser-promotion

robotresearcher 6y ago

Safari -> share icon -> Add to homescreen

millstone 6y ago

The web does not solve the problem identified in the post. Nothing prevents Google from releasing new versions of Chrome with insufficient warning, and breaking sites. An example of just that is https://www.theverge.com/2019/11/15/20966237/google-chrome-white-tab-screen-crash-experiment-it-admins https://www.theverge.com/2019/11/15/20966237/google-chrome-w...

kaishin 6y ago

Oh please point me to the latest Web innovations that do something else other than track me or pester me with junk I don't need.