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College. The point isn't so much to pigeonhole oneself into a safe job at a big company but to take some liberal-arts courses to better oneself and to avoid bec

College. The point isn't so much to pigeonhole oneself into a safe job at a big company but to take some liberal-arts courses to better oneself and to avoid becoming a one-dimensional human being.

Eliezer 16y ago
Okay, seriously, how is this advice not a gigantic blatant lie? Read science fiction written by knowledgeable people who put their knowledge in the story, go to science fiction conventions, attend random lectures in your city, read history books you're actually interested in, read basic textbooks in a variety of fields, go to kink events and learn about anything that interests you, visit a foreign country and stay there long enough to absorb a culture, make strange friends, not to mention DOING A STARTUP, and at the end you will be a hell of a lot more well-rounded than somebody who paid $80,000 to take a course requiring them to read Moby Dick. Trudging off dully into college like the est of the drones is an efficient way of becoming multidimensional? A more efficient way than DOING A STARTUP? GIVE me a goddamned BREAK! Isn't this one of those things that is just blatantly false but which everyone repeats anyway? And even if it were true, there'd be hella more efficient ways to round yourself using $80,000.
- bluekeybox 16y ago
  While doing all of the things you listed may indeed result in a better education than going to college, most people are too lazy or inexperienced to come up and follow through with such a self-education program. I have met people who frown upon college-level liberal-arts education, and now do my best to avoid them. It isn't so much that I agreed with everything that was taught in college (I was one of those students who would often end up arguing with the professor), it's just that such willful ignorance on the part of these people is a huge warning sign in my book. BTW, I enjoy reading your blog.
- spacemanaki 16y ago
  I spent far less than $80k to get my degree from a big state school in the US, so this doesn't necessarily apply to the OP's situation if indeed that's the minimum they'd end up spending in the UK. But I have to disagree with you that it's a "gigantic blatant lie." Perhaps it's overly optimistic regarding the quality of education one would get for $80k, but it's not a lie. Sure, you can get very well-rounded by reading books on your own but there's a tremendous amount of value to be gotten from going to college too, maybe even a different kind of value, or for a different person. I took a fair amount of higher level math in college and I really don't think I would have had the same experience studying that stuff on my own. I'm sure there are people who can read abstract algebra, analysis, and geometry textbooks on their own and get 100% of the understanding a good professor would try to impart during lectures, but I bet they are rare. In 16-18-yr olds, probably quite rare. Regarding liberal arts courses, I had the opportunity to study Japanese literature and film with some really great professors, and that's something I could have obviously done on my own (watch movies, read books, write critical papers and mull over them by myself). But it's not the same. Maybe not better, maybe not worse, but I disagree with your assumption that self-study is a drop in replacement for college. "Doing a startup" probably offers a great deal of opportunities for personal growth and well-roundedness, but I really don't think it's going to be the same as studying things like upper division math, compilers, the French new wave in depth at a decent university class. I completely agree that college is totally over-priced. At $80k, my arguments start to look a little flimsy. But as a blanket statement, I have to disagree with you that the idea that "college offers value to someone wanting to be well-rounded" is a blatant lie. Also, your tone was a bit shrill.
- mattdeboard 16y ago
  First, the author is 16 years old. It matters. Yes, college is, all things being equal, a great venue to encounter a lot of opportunities to expand one's base of knowledge and depth of character. Second, he lives in the UK. College won't run him American prices. Third, I truly think it's irresponsible to advise to the general populace that they skip college. Going to college need not be a headlong dive into staggering debt. There are options to afford yourself an education without breaking yourself. The "$80,000" scenario for a bachelors degree is the worst-case one, "one of those things that is [almost totally] false but which everyone repeats anyway." I'm not sure I necessarily agree that liberal arts courses is a worthwhile time investment, though. But college isn't the waste of time you're trying to make it out to be.
  - pbhjpbhj 16y ago
    Suppose you can rent a room for £250 per mo, eat and dress and buy utilities for the same and spend say £50 per mo of course on uni materials (books, tech, disposables). That's about £6450 pa. Add on fees of £7500. Three year course under this regimen is c. £40k or $65k. At my college (ie Uni) I paid 320 per mo for a room (quite a few years ago). Fees could be £9000 pa. At that rate the figures work out to c. $80k USD for a 3 year course. I don't think that the $80k is the worst case scenario.
- JoshPic 16y ago
  Matt, its not so much the price Im worried about, If I had to, I would make that much to fund my education, the thing I worry about is he value college brings. Would I be 'wasting' 2 years for all intents and purposes when I could be applying my time elsewhere?
  - pbhjpbhj 16y ago
    The tax-payer pay you to do those two years don't they? Personally I'd stick at school to do A-levels unless you were going in to something which is guaranteeing to make you a living and progress your career. Uni, different question.

College. The point isn't so much to pigeonhole oneself into a safe job at a big company but to take some liberal-arts courses to better oneself and to avoid becoming a one-dimensional human being.

Eliezer 16y ago

Okay, seriously, how is this advice not a gigantic blatant lie? Read science fiction written by knowledgeable people who put their knowledge in the story, go to science fiction conventions, attend random lectures in your city, read history books you're actually interested in, read basic textbooks in a variety of fields, go to kink events and learn about anything that interests you, visit a foreign country and stay there long enough to absorb a culture, make strange friends, not to mention DOING A STARTUP, and at the end you will be a hell of a lot more well-rounded than somebody who paid $80,000 to take a course requiring them to read Moby Dick. Trudging off dully into college like the est of the drones is an efficient way of becoming multidimensional? A more efficient way than DOING A STARTUP? GIVE me a goddamned BREAK! Isn't this one of those things that is just blatantly false but which everyone repeats anyway? And even if it were true, there'd be hella more efficient ways to round yourself using $80,000.

bluekeybox 16y ago
While doing all of the things you listed may indeed result in a better education than going to college, most people are too lazy or inexperienced to come up and follow through with such a self-education program. I have met people who frown upon college-level liberal-arts education, and now do my best to avoid them. It isn't so much that I agreed with everything that was taught in college (I was one of those students who would often end up arguing with the professor), it's just that such willful ignorance on the part of these people is a huge warning sign in my book. BTW, I enjoy reading your blog.
spacemanaki 16y ago
I spent far less than $80k to get my degree from a big state school in the US, so this doesn't necessarily apply to the OP's situation if indeed that's the minimum they'd end up spending in the UK. But I have to disagree with you that it's a "gigantic blatant lie." Perhaps it's overly optimistic regarding the quality of education one would get for $80k, but it's not a lie. Sure, you can get very well-rounded by reading books on your own but there's a tremendous amount of value to be gotten from going to college too, maybe even a different kind of value, or for a different person. I took a fair amount of higher level math in college and I really don't think I would have had the same experience studying that stuff on my own. I'm sure there are people who can read abstract algebra, analysis, and geometry textbooks on their own and get 100% of the understanding a good professor would try to impart during lectures, but I bet they are rare. In 16-18-yr olds, probably quite rare. Regarding liberal arts courses, I had the opportunity to study Japanese literature and film with some really great professors, and that's something I could have obviously done on my own (watch movies, read books, write critical papers and mull over them by myself). But it's not the same. Maybe not better, maybe not worse, but I disagree with your assumption that self-study is a drop in replacement for college. "Doing a startup" probably offers a great deal of opportunities for personal growth and well-roundedness, but I really don't think it's going to be the same as studying things like upper division math, compilers, the French new wave in depth at a decent university class. I completely agree that college is totally over-priced. At $80k, my arguments start to look a little flimsy. But as a blanket statement, I have to disagree with you that the idea that "college offers value to someone wanting to be well-rounded" is a blatant lie. Also, your tone was a bit shrill.
mattdeboard 16y ago
First, the author is 16 years old. It matters. Yes, college is, all things being equal, a great venue to encounter a lot of opportunities to expand one's base of knowledge and depth of character. Second, he lives in the UK. College won't run him American prices. Third, I truly think it's irresponsible to advise to the general populace that they skip college. Going to college need not be a headlong dive into staggering debt. There are options to afford yourself an education without breaking yourself. The "$80,000" scenario for a bachelors degree is the worst-case one, "one of those things that is [almost totally] false but which everyone repeats anyway." I'm not sure I necessarily agree that liberal arts courses is a worthwhile time investment, though. But college isn't the waste of time you're trying to make it out to be.
- pbhjpbhj 16y ago
  Suppose you can rent a room for £250 per mo, eat and dress and buy utilities for the same and spend say £50 per mo of course on uni materials (books, tech, disposables). That's about £6450 pa. Add on fees of £7500. Three year course under this regimen is c. £40k or $65k. At my college (ie Uni) I paid 320 per mo for a room (quite a few years ago). Fees could be £9000 pa. At that rate the figures work out to c. $80k USD for a 3 year course. I don't think that the $80k is the worst case scenario.
JoshPic 16y ago
Matt, its not so much the price Im worried about, If I had to, I would make that much to fund my education, the thing I worry about is he value college brings. Would I be 'wasting' 2 years for all intents and purposes when I could be applying my time elsewhere?
- pbhjpbhj 16y ago
  The tax-payer pay you to do those two years don't they? Personally I'd stick at school to do A-levels unless you were going in to something which is guaranteeing to make you a living and progress your career. Uni, different question.