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Dickhead of the Week: Instagram CEO Adam Mosseri

308 points by davidbarker 6y ago

Dahoon 6y ago
How many users Facebook or Instagram has is beside the point which is that Apple is most definitely abusing its market position.
- deadwing0 6y ago
  Could you share your reasoning as to why this is Apple abusing its market position? To me it appears that Apple is simply giving users control and transparency in what data is being used. I understand your point to be that because Apple is so large and controls a large market, they can't make changes like this? Correct me if I'm wrong, but if that is your point, then I would have to disagree. By this reasoning, what could Apple do that wouldn't count as accusing I its market position?
  - braythwayt 6y ago
    You're 100% right. Everything Apple does can be construed as "abuse" if someone is willing to argue in bad faith. iOS now tells you when one app pastes content from the clipboard, if the contents of the clipboard came from another app. e.g., You copy a zip code from Messages, and then switch to the "HN-Maps" app. If HN-Maps sniffs the clipboard in order to suggest that zip code as a destination, you see a notification that "HN-Maps pasted from Messages." That sounds like a good feature for me as a user, but a terrible feature for app developers that want to constantly and silently scan your clipboard for keywords they can add to the data they sell on their shady data exchanges. They can and will complain that Apple is "abusing" its monopoly power, but this isn't abuse at all. Next, I expect them to complain that Apple's feature that shows you which apps are draining your battery is also abusing their power to make users uninstall apps that are greedy for battery. iOS is a shopping mall, and when you write apps for the platform, you're renting a space in the mall and must able by all the regulations in the lease that were put in there for the benefit of the landlord. Part of the landlord's interest is their pocketbook immediately--see the app store's 30% haircut--and part of the landlord's interests are the long-term viability of the mall. The landlord--Apple--has to care about things like user satisfaction, because the tenants--facebook, et al.--would happily burn down the entire platform for a buck or two.
    - luckylion 6y ago
      > iOS now tells you when one app pastes content from the clipboard, if the contents of the clipboard came from another app. Does it do that for all apps, or only non-Apple-apps?
      - braythwayt 6y ago
        Just tried it on iPadOS 14, and yes, "Messages pasted from Safari."
      - dan1234 6y ago
        Definitely also includes Apple’s apps, I’ve just tested copying in Safari and pasting into Notes.
      - sbuk 6y ago
        All, including Apples built-in apps. It tells you where the data was copied from and which app it was pasted to.
      - soneil 6y ago
        You'd expect first-party apps to handle this properly. The intention is that you probe the clipboard metadata (which doesn't display this warning) to see if the clipboard looks like it might be useful to you - and then act (or offer to act) if it does. So first-party apps should have bought into the data-detectors stuff wholesale. An example of this would be the url bar in Safari. If you try to paste into the address bar, you'll be offered "Paste and go" if the clipboard offers a url-like object, and "Paste and search" if it's a non-url stringy object. You'll get the "Safari has pasted from Mail" warning after you select one of these, because the contents were not exposed during the metadata operations. This is the expected behaviour.
    - soneil 6y ago
      Maps actually make a perfect example of why this needs to exist, even without malicious actors. Your zipcode example starts off as a perfectly well-meaning example of clipboard-sniffing, but after a very short meeting with "reality", quickly turns into passing strings to a geo API because there's a lot more addresses than just zipcodes we'd like to detect. And it just so happens that the most significant provider of such an API, is also one of the most significant providers of adtech going .. You can see how quickly it goes from "providing seamless UX" to "the road to hell is paved with good intentions".
- growt 6y ago
  No. If Apple would be using the data and deny others access to it, then it would be abuse. I don't think that is happening. Apple is just improving their product.
- cpach 6y ago
  Maybe. But I would say this is a case where the consumers’ interests aligns with Apple’s.
- laumars 6y ago
  Neither Apple nor Facebook own my privacy. The fact that some people are turning this into an argument about Apples walled garden is a very convenient way to side step the real issue which is that some organisations feel entitled to my data when in fact that should be up to me if I want to share it or not.
- mola 6y ago
  By offering knowledge to their clients? I wouldn't call it abuse, I would call it a service.
m90 6y ago
I'd be way more interested in actually reading this if the headline didn't contain pointless profanities. Like this, I tag it Fanboi-ism and move on.
- lol768 6y ago
  Eh, it's a reasonable post if you look past the headline. The profanity likely comes about from frustration with facebook (particularly for playing the pandemic card) which I don't think is particularly unjustified or from a place of fanboy-ism.
  - srtjstjsj 6y ago
    Frustration is fine. But a professional with an audience of millions should proofread their work. Content that isn't allowed in HN comments shouldn't be in HN posts either.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- dunce2020 6y ago
  That's how you know the author is cool and irreverent. An iconoclast!
  - jacknews 6y ago
    lol
- cpach 6y ago
  I agree that the headline is in poor taste. (And I say that as a frequent DF reader.) Still a good article though.
- RL_Quine 6y ago
  It's completely justified in context. Nobody could be mislead into thinking that "Vitamin Water" is a healthy drink. Same level of idiotic justification for the detriment of the consumer.
rospaya 6y ago
I hate being in a position to defend Facebook or Instagram, but independent of the size of any of the platforms, Apple is a gatekeeper for them, not the other way around.
- trollied 6y ago
  Are you of the opinion that Apple increasing security and anonymity for the end user is a bad thing?
  - nickthemagicman 6y ago
    Is it that simple?
- winterismute 6y ago
  However, hasn't this happened just because they themselves wanted to be mobile first - mostly due to the fact that it was (and partially still is) a "virgin territory" in which abusing users privacy is easer? Sounds like they should only blame themselves...
  - throw0101a 6y ago
    > However, hasn't this happened just because they themselves wanted to be mobile first Not just "mobile first", but they were iPhone-only for the first eighteen months: * https://techland.time.com/2012/04/03/no-joke-instagram-is-finally-available-for-android/ https://techland.time.com/2012/04/03/no-joke-instagram-is-fi... * https://www.cnn.com/2012/04/03/tech/mobile/instagram-android/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2012/04/03/tech/mobile/instagram-android...
- nobody9999 6y ago
  >Apple is a gatekeeper for them, not the other way around. Given that Android has a 75% share[0] of the mobile OS market, that isn't really true. Apple is a gatekeeper for the 23% or so of mobile devices. I think that giving end users control over what data about them is exfiltrated from their devices is a good thing. And assuming that applies to Apple apps as well, it sounds like a win for IOS users. N.B.: I do not currently, nor have I ever owned an Apple device. Even the Apple ][ I built from a kit in high school was a clone and not Apple hardware. [0] https://www.statista.com/statistics/272698/global-market-share-held-by-mobile-operating-systems-since-2009/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/272698/global-market-sha...
ptest1 6y ago
I might be one of the few, but I like the ads I see on Instagram and have purchased lots of things via IG ads. I can’t think of any other app/site where the ads have sucked me in. I realize this is besides the point, but I thought it was worth sharing in terms of how they might be doing personalization. For me, it’s so good that it actually works.
- dannyr 6y ago
  Are the ads that good for you to be tracked by these companies everywhere you go and sacrifice your privacy?
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
- thrwn_frthr_awy 6y ago
  But can't you still have that same experience? Isn't Apple simply requiring Instagram to ask you if would like to be tracked?
  - soneil 6y ago
    It does annoy me that this isn't mentioned more often. Apple aren't taking this away, they're enabling the user to opt-out. That these are almost constantly being stated as the same thing, only shows that the vast majority of users do not want to be tracked, and the vast majority of adtech has no respect for the user's wishes. If neither of these were true, having the option would not be an issue.
  - ptest1 6y ago
    I added “beside the point” because I believe so, yeah.
- roenxi 6y ago
  Sure, but the ideal framing here is that Apple is not going to assume that on your behalf. It is very welcome to have someone in the space who is willing to say that my phone isn't necessarily a platform built for advertisers.
Jedd 6y ago
Having just finished watching The Social Dilemma about fifteen minutes ago -- then hopping onto HN to satisfy the itch before bedtime (the irony is not lost) to read some commentary about Apple, Instagram, and Facebook. "There are millions of [small businesses] out there that rely on us to target customers and to reach those customers." (quote from Instagram CEO) I'm not an Instagram user / customer / product -- but it seems disingenuous for the CEO of Instagram to claim the company's primary concern is these myriad tiny companies, other than in the context of them indirectly buoying up Instagram's business.
- parsimoniousplb 6y ago
  Edit: accidentially replied to wrong post
- srtjstjsj 6y ago
  There's nothing wrong with getting paid to help people. That's the whole moral justification for capitalism.
  - XCSme 6y ago
    But there is something wrong in harming billions of people just to help a few businesses.
- treis 6y ago
  I doubt that anyone at Facebook cares about small businesses beyond making money off them, but they do have a point here. Instagram & Facebook are at the center of a lot of small businesses/side hustles. Those depend pretty heavily on advertising to generate sales or to monetize their posts. I'm dubious that all this tracking really is that effective for ads. But linking a purchase to an ad is undeniably important. If you can't do that then the current system breaks down. Hard to know if what replaces it will be better or worse.
syllable_studio 6y ago
I CAN'T WAIT for decentralized infrastructure to finally become robust enough that clones of instagram and facebook can all share a network -- they'll all become portals to the same social graph data. When that happens, there will no longer be any reason to put up with this abuse of privacy garbage.
- sascha_sl 6y ago
  Mastodon and Pixelfed already exist and are very functional, the issue is that all instances of the above are run with a hobby-grade SLA and mixed moderation policies and users that do not understand federated services. Even domains on emails get defaulted to gmail.com when in doubt now.
- mola 6y ago
  If these will be as popular, we'll still be left with mass disinformation campaigns and culture wars though.
- ryanmarsh 6y ago
  all become portals to the same social graph data...privacy How will we have privacy when the graph is open?
  - syllable_studio 6y ago
    same as now, encryption and permissions. We'll just have more options and less lock-in.
- iforgotpassword 6y ago
  Never going to happen. Ever. Decentralized means it's inevitably more cumbersome to use. If you make it easier you're taking shortcuts somewhere, especially if you want a platform that's resistant to censorship and is supposed to provide anonymity. And if you actually do succeed in this you'll inevitably end up with a platform where highly immoral content is just a wrong click away. It'll be this cycle of a new platform being fresh and trendy, then they become bigger, care about being taken seriously by traditional media, for getting ad deals with the big players, then a new platform pops up, cycle repeats.
johnnyAghands 6y ago
All cylinders firing on this one. Couldn't agree more.
ape4 6y ago
Also Instagram has lots of other ways to get info on you. eg if you follow or like photos in CityX then they can assume you are interested in that city and show you ads about it. And so on, about any subject.
orev 6y ago
Watch “The Social Dilemma” on Netflix, see how far off the rails the industry has gone, then come back and tell me that Apple is the bad guy here. Someone needs to start standing up for what’s right, and Apple is probably the only one with the size and cash reserves to be able to do it. For all the free market cheerleaders, remember this: we already have laws in place preventing or regulating businesses from engaging in certain activities, like exploitation, gambling, addictive drugs, etc. And these companies fighting Apple want to do exactly that: Epic wants to sell digital gambling (loot) boxes to children. Facebook and Instagram want to track everything you do every second of the day, for the dubious goal of making advertising “more relevant to you” (and just happens to have the small side effect of being a tool currently in use to topple democracies around the world). Social networks are hooking into addiction centers of the brain to keep people hooked on misinformation that is actually killing people. Is Apple perfect? No. Is this one thing going to stop all that I mentioned? No. But you have to start somewhere.
- frosted-flakes 6y ago
  You can support a company for some of its actions while also condemning it for others. It's totally legitimate to be on Epic's side in the Apple vs Epic lawsuit while also supporting Apple's privacy measures.
  - nogabebop23 6y ago
    I agree with this belief, as well as not letting perfect be the enemy of better, as in this case: I can choose Apple over FB while still not liking Apple. The problem is it's really hard to hold these apparently contradictory positions in your head at the same time. We love binary distinctions on single dimension axes because our brains are more efficiently with this paradigm. In truth the world at any degree of scale does not work this way and we've got to do a better job developing more nuanced personal positions.
  - samzer 6y ago
    Yep. Totally agree. I appreciate apple's attempt in the privacy space as well as loathe their 30% mandatory in app purchase integration which EPIC is fighting against. You need someone who is big like Epic to stand against apple as they the resource to battle it out legally. One of my clients is a small player and they have stripe integration for their service. The android platform uses the stripe integration where as the apple platform has forced in app purchases down their throat. In app purchases should be an option and it should be upto the customer if they want to use it or not.
beaner 6y ago
> And give me a fucking break with bringing the pandemic into this. It’s especially infuriating coming from Facebook, of all companies. Maybe if they weren’t the main vector for the disinformation and anti-science nonsense that has prolonged the pandemic by turning it into a needless culture war, their “concern” would ring more true. If companies are responsible for the content posted on their platforms, wouldn't that make iPhone the main vector? Especially since they take the most active filtering stance for any app onto their device.
- jeromegv 6y ago
  Nope Companies like Facebook not only show you content, they use algos to show you more of certain content. They provide an editorial choice over what content you should see. Sure Apple could ban Facebook, but I know you’re just making a stupid argument for sport, not that you actually believe that makes sense and that they should.
  - srtjstjsj 6y ago
    Gruber believes Apple should regulate iOS content, which they do all day every day. Apple has banned Gab because of user content. The question is why they make an exception for Facebook but not for Gab.
  - beaner 6y ago
    I don't see what's different about it. Apple quality control is also just a type of algorithm. They have an algorithm that filters apps with algorithms. It is an editorial choice as well. Stopping after Facebook but before Apple is arbitrary.
beaner 6y ago
I find this article stupid for the primary reason that everyone has been absolutely bending over backwards to justify Apple's stance vs Epic, where everyone's argument in favor of Apple comes down to a pro-capitalist, dog-eat-dog, "if you don't like it, don't buy it" type of thing. But for other apps actually powering the iPhone's popularity, this argument is completely absent, and by behaving the same way, these companies are "dickheads." The hypocrisy is unbelievable.
dylan604 6y ago
> But Facebook has 2.5 billion users and Instagram 1 billion — and they’re the sole gatekeepers of their own massive platforms. What's good for the goose, not the gander type of mentality at play here. However, using these numbers 2.5 BILLION users for FB and 1 BILLION users for Insta. Even if these platforms have to go with non-targeted ads, that's still a huge pool of potential eyeballs for an advertiser. If you we placed in front of 1% of that pool, that's 10 MILLION viewers. You'd be hard pressed to get those numbers for a national TV ad. So even 0.5% brings it down to 5 MILLION people. These are very large numbers.
- srtjstjsj 6y ago
  This is a minor variation of the "spammers fallacy" of believing 1% is the smallest number. What it it's 0.1%? Or 0.00001%?
  - dylan604 6y ago
    You're missing the larger point. I'm very well aware that numbers are smaller than 1%. I just used 1% as easy number to do math with larger numbers. The FB/Insta platforms are such a large market for an advertiser. As with all advertising, you can spend as much as you want to hit your numbers.
superkuh 6y ago
There's a pretty simple solution to both sides of the problem people are complaining about in here. Make a personal choice to stop using Apple, Facebook, Instagram, and Epic products. It's pretty easy and there's no cloudiness ethically to this solution. Take personal responsibility and vote with your $currency and attention.
- syllable_studio 6y ago
  I hope this will be much easier for people to do when there are decentralized options. (other thread here discussing that.) And then the big players can't just buy the competitors and keep locking us into the same problem.
- srtjstjsj 6y ago
  I can't take personal responsibility for how the behavior of a million moron voters affects me. As long as democracy exists, the crap poured into other people's brains is my responsibility.
ComodoHacker 6y ago
Honest question: Does Facebook app on iOS need IDFA that much? A user is logged in and identified anyway, Facebook can deliver personalized ads. Facebook loses data about user activity outside Facebook, but is it so important? Isn't in-platform data not enough to personalize ads?
- sbuk 6y ago
  For Facebook at least, it's not about 'ads'. Personalised ads are a distraction. Not being able to track outside of their platform takes away the ability to extend the profile they are building around the user. Their customers are interested in this profile because they can use that information to manipulate the user. And we're not talking about choosing Bosch over Whirlpool for a new dishwasher...
  - srtjstjsj 6y ago
    You're weirdly obliquely referring to political ads. Those are ads.
    - braythwayt 6y ago
      Not just ads, but yes ads. If I friend/follow a lot of people, and I have a simple timeline, I see what they're thinking about. But if there's an algorithm selecting which posts I see from my social circle, and it happens to shade one way versus another, there are no ads, no synthetic content, but I have still been manipulated. FB experimented with this quite famously a while back, they used sentiment analysis to see if they could manipulate people into being more or less depressed. Without informing users, obtaining their consent, or following any of the other rigorous requirements for doing psychological research that we demand from medical proactitioners.
    - sbuk 6y ago
      Yes and no. Yes, in the literal sence. Political ads like "Vote for John Doe; the law and order candidate" when you profile as a conservative is fine. Pushing "We send the EU £350 million a week, let's fund our NHS instead" when you profile as conservative isn't, because it's a lie designed to provoke a reaction and rile supporters. Or filling your feed not with just ads, but "news". Yes, that's paid for too. Edit: braythwayt said it far more eloquently than I...
dr_zoidberg 6y ago
> Mosseri said Instagram’s advertising business requires certain data to show users relevant ads and to provide value for its advertisers, the majority of which are small and medium-sized businesses. And they're always showing me utterly irrelevant ads and content ^_^ Not that I complain, I like that they haven't managed to track me well so far. But then again, I do wonder if they'd ever share that info (or if it was leaked), which companies/people would believe about me: whatever I say, or the flawed model that they've built.
davidtranjs 6y ago
This article is not correct. Does Apple track user information? Yes, they just don't sell those data to adverisers but keep those information for themeselves and use it as advantage to sell their services and devices. The number of Facebook users doesn't mean anything because Facebook and Instagram are free services, there are a lot of inactive accounts and bot accounts. In order to publish their apps to app store they have to get approval from Apple and Google. So Apple is still the ultimate gatekeeper.
moooo99 6y ago
Personally, I find basically everything about Instagram bad. The only reason I use it is because a lot of my friends share their pictures there. Their app is full of bugs, at least on my regular Android phone, dark mode always messes up, ghost notifications, random crashes, etc. The platform is full of bots. My profile is set to private, so everybody who wants to follow me needs to request first. On some days, I get requests from 10+ profiles trying to sell porn. And that's without following any big influencers, just friends. The bots also invade basically every public comment section, trying to sell porn or NSFW snapchat. I don't get why they are successful, but I assume they are, given the scale they operate. Their TikTok clone feature that basically completely spams my discover/search tab is full of content taken from TikTok or barely dressed girls trying to push their OnlyFans. Maybe that was the plan, I find it just annoying. And now to their ads, easily one of the most annoying parts. Given how much data Facebook/Instagram is collecting, you'd assume they'd somehow manage to show interesting and relevant advertisings. At least for me and some friends I talked to, that is absolutely not the case. While it feels like every third post is an ad, there is nothing relevant at all. Basically all ads I get on instagram are trying to sell me 100k passive income online courses, cheap Chinese drop shipping products, knockoff products or trading apps (something I was never remotely interested in either).
- lostgame 6y ago
  I was an early adopter of both Instagram and the iPad. (As an iOS developer, even at the time; I have to keep up with the ecosystem as it evolves.) I waited for years for them to create an iPad-compatible version. It is literally one of the only apps I use that still uses iPhone mode on an iPad. 'According to Mosseri (Instagram CEO), the reason for Instagram’s iPhone-only app is that the company doesn’t have the resources to develop for both platforms.'[1] Eye. Roll. If little indie shops can have this out of the gate, I'm sure you could figure out a way to allocate some of your resources to a tablet version. It's been ten years since both the iPad and Instagram. I get that Instagram is a photo-taking app; and typically you'd use a phone for that. Many of my friends are iPad-only on the Apple ecosystem; and they enjoy taking and editing photos, especially with the Apple Pencil, on the device. The new iPad Pros have excellent cameras for the hardware - not nearly as great as; say, the iPhone 11, but worthy of taking pictures and it happens all the time. [1]https://9to5mac.com/2020/02/16/instagram-ipad-app-excuse/ https://9to5mac.com/2020/02/16/instagram-ipad-app-excuse/
return1 6y ago
Apple seems to be on a PR offensive after a few weeks of bad press and it seems they are employing their usual bloggers to entertain the developer audience. I dunno why devs participate in this PR circus. And btw the author is wrong about comparing to facebook’s platform, which is still the most open, free to use large platform out there.
- BlueTemplar 6y ago
  That's a bit like saying "the most open, free" jail...
  - return1 6y ago
    Yes if course. Developers need to treat all commercial platforms with cynicism and realize that they re honeytraps. You are always allowed to eat at first but then you gotta run out asap
spirographer 6y ago
The reason Instagram's founders are no longer there is because they could not stomach being forced by facebook to publicly make these kinds of statements.
SergeAx 6y ago
> but if their ads are less effective without privacy invasive user-tracking, then so be it, they’re less effective For end advertisers IDFA is not about effectiveness, it's about measuring: we've spent $N on ads at platform X and got Y installs/purchases. Then they can tag those customers with source X and track lifetime value per source. Without analytics like that we are back to times of TV and newspaper and billboard ads, and small business just may not afford that. I think that's the point of original quote. I am not a big fan of Facebook and Instagram, but their ad targeting is indeed best on the market. I understand Apple just want to redirect that cash stream into it's own pocket (see "Apple own search engine" leak couple of weeks ago).
residentfoam 6y ago
I stand with Apple! I deleted my FB account years ago, never used Instagram. Unfortunately I am forced to use WhatsUp because of my family :( . I think it is time to put a stop at this selling user data business. Selling user data and ads is not an Apple business, so I trust Apple vs Google, where the majority of their revenue comes from ads.
- higerordermap 6y ago
  Apple has to share your data with advertising partners whereas your data doesn't leave Google. Apple patents trivial programming language features and curved phone corners. Apple deceptive marketing is well known. Google has actually contributed lot more than Apple to open source. There is a FOSS app store for android, because it is not a walled garden like iOS. There is privacy, as in Linux culture, and there is "Privacy!!" as in apple marketing. I am not affiliated to Google. But the hate they get here is undeserved.
sizzle 6y ago
Developers working on building adtech are just as unscrupulous and complicit in undermining our privacy as Zuckerberg and Mosseri are in defending their money-printing social media spyware platforms. Change my view if you disagree.

308 points by davidbarker 6y ago

How many users Facebook or Instagram has is beside the point which is that Apple is most definitely abusing its market position.

deadwing0 6y ago
Could you share your reasoning as to why this is Apple abusing its market position? To me it appears that Apple is simply giving users control and transparency in what data is being used. I understand your point to be that because Apple is so large and controls a large market, they can't make changes like this? Correct me if I'm wrong, but if that is your point, then I would have to disagree. By this reasoning, what could Apple do that wouldn't count as accusing I its market position?
- braythwayt 6y ago
  You're 100% right. Everything Apple does can be construed as "abuse" if someone is willing to argue in bad faith. iOS now tells you when one app pastes content from the clipboard, if the contents of the clipboard came from another app. e.g., You copy a zip code from Messages, and then switch to the "HN-Maps" app. If HN-Maps sniffs the clipboard in order to suggest that zip code as a destination, you see a notification that "HN-Maps pasted from Messages." That sounds like a good feature for me as a user, but a terrible feature for app developers that want to constantly and silently scan your clipboard for keywords they can add to the data they sell on their shady data exchanges. They can and will complain that Apple is "abusing" its monopoly power, but this isn't abuse at all. Next, I expect them to complain that Apple's feature that shows you which apps are draining your battery is also abusing their power to make users uninstall apps that are greedy for battery. iOS is a shopping mall, and when you write apps for the platform, you're renting a space in the mall and must able by all the regulations in the lease that were put in there for the benefit of the landlord. Part of the landlord's interest is their pocketbook immediately--see the app store's 30% haircut--and part of the landlord's interests are the long-term viability of the mall. The landlord--Apple--has to care about things like user satisfaction, because the tenants--facebook, et al.--would happily burn down the entire platform for a buck or two.
  - luckylion 6y ago
    > iOS now tells you when one app pastes content from the clipboard, if the contents of the clipboard came from another app. Does it do that for all apps, or only non-Apple-apps?
    - braythwayt 6y ago
      Just tried it on iPadOS 14, and yes, "Messages pasted from Safari."
    - dan1234 6y ago
      Definitely also includes Apple’s apps, I’ve just tested copying in Safari and pasting into Notes.
    - sbuk 6y ago
      All, including Apples built-in apps. It tells you where the data was copied from and which app it was pasted to.
    - soneil 6y ago
      You'd expect first-party apps to handle this properly. The intention is that you probe the clipboard metadata (which doesn't display this warning) to see if the clipboard looks like it might be useful to you - and then act (or offer to act) if it does. So first-party apps should have bought into the data-detectors stuff wholesale. An example of this would be the url bar in Safari. If you try to paste into the address bar, you'll be offered "Paste and go" if the clipboard offers a url-like object, and "Paste and search" if it's a non-url stringy object. You'll get the "Safari has pasted from Mail" warning after you select one of these, because the contents were not exposed during the metadata operations. This is the expected behaviour.
  - soneil 6y ago
    Maps actually make a perfect example of why this needs to exist, even without malicious actors. Your zipcode example starts off as a perfectly well-meaning example of clipboard-sniffing, but after a very short meeting with "reality", quickly turns into passing strings to a geo API because there's a lot more addresses than just zipcodes we'd like to detect. And it just so happens that the most significant provider of such an API, is also one of the most significant providers of adtech going .. You can see how quickly it goes from "providing seamless UX" to "the road to hell is paved with good intentions".
growt 6y ago
No. If Apple would be using the data and deny others access to it, then it would be abuse. I don't think that is happening. Apple is just improving their product.
cpach 6y ago
Maybe. But I would say this is a case where the consumers’ interests aligns with Apple’s.
laumars 6y ago
Neither Apple nor Facebook own my privacy. The fact that some people are turning this into an argument about Apples walled garden is a very convenient way to side step the real issue which is that some organisations feel entitled to my data when in fact that should be up to me if I want to share it or not.
mola 6y ago
By offering knowledge to their clients? I wouldn't call it abuse, I would call it a service.

m90 6y ago

I'd be way more interested in actually reading this if the headline didn't contain pointless profanities. Like this, I tag it Fanboi-ism and move on.

lol768 6y ago
Eh, it's a reasonable post if you look past the headline. The profanity likely comes about from frustration with facebook (particularly for playing the pandemic card) which I don't think is particularly unjustified or from a place of fanboy-ism.
- srtjstjsj 6y ago
  Frustration is fine. But a professional with an audience of millions should proofread their work. Content that isn't allowed in HN comments shouldn't be in HN posts either.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
dunce2020 6y ago
That's how you know the author is cool and irreverent. An iconoclast!
- jacknews 6y ago
  lol
cpach 6y ago
I agree that the headline is in poor taste. (And I say that as a frequent DF reader.) Still a good article though.
RL_Quine 6y ago
It's completely justified in context. Nobody could be mislead into thinking that "Vitamin Water" is a healthy drink. Same level of idiotic justification for the detriment of the consumer.

rospaya 6y ago

I hate being in a position to defend Facebook or Instagram, but independent of the size of any of the platforms, Apple is a gatekeeper for them, not the other way around.

trollied 6y ago
Are you of the opinion that Apple increasing security and anonymity for the end user is a bad thing?
- nickthemagicman 6y ago
  Is it that simple?
winterismute 6y ago
However, hasn't this happened just because they themselves wanted to be mobile first - mostly due to the fact that it was (and partially still is) a "virgin territory" in which abusing users privacy is easer? Sounds like they should only blame themselves...
- throw0101a 6y ago
  > However, hasn't this happened just because they themselves wanted to be mobile first Not just "mobile first", but they were iPhone-only for the first eighteen months: * https://techland.time.com/2012/04/03/no-joke-instagram-is-finally-available-for-android/ https://techland.time.com/2012/04/03/no-joke-instagram-is-fi... * https://www.cnn.com/2012/04/03/tech/mobile/instagram-android/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2012/04/03/tech/mobile/instagram-android...
nobody9999 6y ago
>Apple is a gatekeeper for them, not the other way around. Given that Android has a 75% share[0] of the mobile OS market, that isn't really true. Apple is a gatekeeper for the 23% or so of mobile devices. I think that giving end users control over what data about them is exfiltrated from their devices is a good thing. And assuming that applies to Apple apps as well, it sounds like a win for IOS users. N.B.: I do not currently, nor have I ever owned an Apple device. Even the Apple ][ I built from a kit in high school was a clone and not Apple hardware. [0] https://www.statista.com/statistics/272698/global-market-share-held-by-mobile-operating-systems-since-2009/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/272698/global-market-sha...

ptest1 6y ago

I might be one of the few, but I like the ads I see on Instagram and have purchased lots of things via IG ads. I can’t think of any other app/site where the ads have sucked me in. I realize this is besides the point, but I thought it was worth sharing in terms of how they might be doing personalization. For me, it’s so good that it actually works.

dannyr 6y ago
Are the ads that good for you to be tracked by these companies everywhere you go and sacrifice your privacy?
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
thrwn_frthr_awy 6y ago
But can't you still have that same experience? Isn't Apple simply requiring Instagram to ask you if would like to be tracked?
- soneil 6y ago
  It does annoy me that this isn't mentioned more often. Apple aren't taking this away, they're enabling the user to opt-out. That these are almost constantly being stated as the same thing, only shows that the vast majority of users do not want to be tracked, and the vast majority of adtech has no respect for the user's wishes. If neither of these were true, having the option would not be an issue.
- ptest1 6y ago
  I added “beside the point” because I believe so, yeah.
roenxi 6y ago
Sure, but the ideal framing here is that Apple is not going to assume that on your behalf. It is very welcome to have someone in the space who is willing to say that my phone isn't necessarily a platform built for advertisers.

Jedd 6y ago

Having just finished watching The Social Dilemma about fifteen minutes ago -- then hopping onto HN to satisfy the itch before bedtime (the irony is not lost) to read some commentary about Apple, Instagram, and Facebook. "There are millions of [small businesses] out there that rely on us to target customers and to reach those customers." (quote from Instagram CEO) I'm not an Instagram user / customer / product -- but it seems disingenuous for the CEO of Instagram to claim the company's primary concern is these myriad tiny companies, other than in the context of them indirectly buoying up Instagram's business.

parsimoniousplb 6y ago
Edit: accidentially replied to wrong post
srtjstjsj 6y ago
There's nothing wrong with getting paid to help people. That's the whole moral justification for capitalism.
- XCSme 6y ago
  But there is something wrong in harming billions of people just to help a few businesses.
treis 6y ago
I doubt that anyone at Facebook cares about small businesses beyond making money off them, but they do have a point here. Instagram & Facebook are at the center of a lot of small businesses/side hustles. Those depend pretty heavily on advertising to generate sales or to monetize their posts. I'm dubious that all this tracking really is that effective for ads. But linking a purchase to an ad is undeniably important. If you can't do that then the current system breaks down. Hard to know if what replaces it will be better or worse.

syllable_studio 6y ago

I CAN'T WAIT for decentralized infrastructure to finally become robust enough that clones of instagram and facebook can all share a network -- they'll all become portals to the same social graph data. When that happens, there will no longer be any reason to put up with this abuse of privacy garbage.

sascha_sl 6y ago
Mastodon and Pixelfed already exist and are very functional, the issue is that all instances of the above are run with a hobby-grade SLA and mixed moderation policies and users that do not understand federated services. Even domains on emails get defaulted to gmail.com when in doubt now.
mola 6y ago
If these will be as popular, we'll still be left with mass disinformation campaigns and culture wars though.
ryanmarsh 6y ago
all become portals to the same social graph data...privacy How will we have privacy when the graph is open?
- syllable_studio 6y ago
  same as now, encryption and permissions. We'll just have more options and less lock-in.
iforgotpassword 6y ago
Never going to happen. Ever. Decentralized means it's inevitably more cumbersome to use. If you make it easier you're taking shortcuts somewhere, especially if you want a platform that's resistant to censorship and is supposed to provide anonymity. And if you actually do succeed in this you'll inevitably end up with a platform where highly immoral content is just a wrong click away. It'll be this cycle of a new platform being fresh and trendy, then they become bigger, care about being taken seriously by traditional media, for getting ad deals with the big players, then a new platform pops up, cycle repeats.

johnnyAghands 6y ago

All cylinders firing on this one. Couldn't agree more.

ape4 6y ago

Also Instagram has lots of other ways to get info on you. eg if you follow or like photos in CityX then they can assume you are interested in that city and show you ads about it. And so on, about any subject.

orev 6y ago

Watch “The Social Dilemma” on Netflix, see how far off the rails the industry has gone, then come back and tell me that Apple is the bad guy here. Someone needs to start standing up for what’s right, and Apple is probably the only one with the size and cash reserves to be able to do it. For all the free market cheerleaders, remember this: we already have laws in place preventing or regulating businesses from engaging in certain activities, like exploitation, gambling, addictive drugs, etc. And these companies fighting Apple want to do exactly that: Epic wants to sell digital gambling (loot) boxes to children. Facebook and Instagram want to track everything you do every second of the day, for the dubious goal of making advertising “more relevant to you” (and just happens to have the small side effect of being a tool currently in use to topple democracies around the world). Social networks are hooking into addiction centers of the brain to keep people hooked on misinformation that is actually killing people. Is Apple perfect? No. Is this one thing going to stop all that I mentioned? No. But you have to start somewhere.

frosted-flakes 6y ago
You can support a company for some of its actions while also condemning it for others. It's totally legitimate to be on Epic's side in the Apple vs Epic lawsuit while also supporting Apple's privacy measures.
- nogabebop23 6y ago
  I agree with this belief, as well as not letting perfect be the enemy of better, as in this case: I can choose Apple over FB while still not liking Apple. The problem is it's really hard to hold these apparently contradictory positions in your head at the same time. We love binary distinctions on single dimension axes because our brains are more efficiently with this paradigm. In truth the world at any degree of scale does not work this way and we've got to do a better job developing more nuanced personal positions.
- samzer 6y ago
  Yep. Totally agree. I appreciate apple's attempt in the privacy space as well as loathe their 30% mandatory in app purchase integration which EPIC is fighting against. You need someone who is big like Epic to stand against apple as they the resource to battle it out legally. One of my clients is a small player and they have stripe integration for their service. The android platform uses the stripe integration where as the apple platform has forced in app purchases down their throat. In app purchases should be an option and it should be upto the customer if they want to use it or not.

beaner 6y ago

> And give me a fucking break with bringing the pandemic into this. It’s especially infuriating coming from Facebook, of all companies. Maybe if they weren’t the main vector for the disinformation and anti-science nonsense that has prolonged the pandemic by turning it into a needless culture war, their “concern” would ring more true. If companies are responsible for the content posted on their platforms, wouldn't that make iPhone the main vector? Especially since they take the most active filtering stance for any app onto their device.

jeromegv 6y ago
Nope Companies like Facebook not only show you content, they use algos to show you more of certain content. They provide an editorial choice over what content you should see. Sure Apple could ban Facebook, but I know you’re just making a stupid argument for sport, not that you actually believe that makes sense and that they should.
- srtjstjsj 6y ago
  Gruber believes Apple should regulate iOS content, which they do all day every day. Apple has banned Gab because of user content. The question is why they make an exception for Facebook but not for Gab.
- beaner 6y ago
  I don't see what's different about it. Apple quality control is also just a type of algorithm. They have an algorithm that filters apps with algorithms. It is an editorial choice as well. Stopping after Facebook but before Apple is arbitrary.

beaner 6y ago

I find this article stupid for the primary reason that everyone has been absolutely bending over backwards to justify Apple's stance vs Epic, where everyone's argument in favor of Apple comes down to a pro-capitalist, dog-eat-dog, "if you don't like it, don't buy it" type of thing. But for other apps actually powering the iPhone's popularity, this argument is completely absent, and by behaving the same way, these companies are "dickheads." The hypocrisy is unbelievable.

dylan604 6y ago

> But Facebook has 2.5 billion users and Instagram 1 billion — and they’re the sole gatekeepers of their own massive platforms. What's good for the goose, not the gander type of mentality at play here. However, using these numbers 2.5 BILLION users for FB and 1 BILLION users for Insta. Even if these platforms have to go with non-targeted ads, that's still a huge pool of potential eyeballs for an advertiser. If you we placed in front of 1% of that pool, that's 10 MILLION viewers. You'd be hard pressed to get those numbers for a national TV ad. So even 0.5% brings it down to 5 MILLION people. These are very large numbers.

srtjstjsj 6y ago
This is a minor variation of the "spammers fallacy" of believing 1% is the smallest number. What it it's 0.1%? Or 0.00001%?
- dylan604 6y ago
  You're missing the larger point. I'm very well aware that numbers are smaller than 1%. I just used 1% as easy number to do math with larger numbers. The FB/Insta platforms are such a large market for an advertiser. As with all advertising, you can spend as much as you want to hit your numbers.

superkuh 6y ago

There's a pretty simple solution to both sides of the problem people are complaining about in here. Make a personal choice to stop using Apple, Facebook, Instagram, and Epic products. It's pretty easy and there's no cloudiness ethically to this solution. Take personal responsibility and vote with your $currency and attention.

syllable_studio 6y ago
I hope this will be much easier for people to do when there are decentralized options. (other thread here discussing that.) And then the big players can't just buy the competitors and keep locking us into the same problem.
srtjstjsj 6y ago
I can't take personal responsibility for how the behavior of a million moron voters affects me. As long as democracy exists, the crap poured into other people's brains is my responsibility.

ComodoHacker 6y ago

Honest question: Does Facebook app on iOS need IDFA that much? A user is logged in and identified anyway, Facebook can deliver personalized ads. Facebook loses data about user activity outside Facebook, but is it so important? Isn't in-platform data not enough to personalize ads?

sbuk 6y ago
For Facebook at least, it's not about 'ads'. Personalised ads are a distraction. Not being able to track outside of their platform takes away the ability to extend the profile they are building around the user. Their customers are interested in this profile because they can use that information to manipulate the user. And we're not talking about choosing Bosch over Whirlpool for a new dishwasher...
- srtjstjsj 6y ago
  You're weirdly obliquely referring to political ads. Those are ads.
  - braythwayt 6y ago
    Not just ads, but yes ads. If I friend/follow a lot of people, and I have a simple timeline, I see what they're thinking about. But if there's an algorithm selecting which posts I see from my social circle, and it happens to shade one way versus another, there are no ads, no synthetic content, but I have still been manipulated. FB experimented with this quite famously a while back, they used sentiment analysis to see if they could manipulate people into being more or less depressed. Without informing users, obtaining their consent, or following any of the other rigorous requirements for doing psychological research that we demand from medical proactitioners.
  - sbuk 6y ago
    Yes and no. Yes, in the literal sence. Political ads like "Vote for John Doe; the law and order candidate" when you profile as a conservative is fine. Pushing "We send the EU £350 million a week, let's fund our NHS instead" when you profile as conservative isn't, because it's a lie designed to provoke a reaction and rile supporters. Or filling your feed not with just ads, but "news". Yes, that's paid for too. Edit: braythwayt said it far more eloquently than I...

dr_zoidberg 6y ago

> Mosseri said Instagram’s advertising business requires certain data to show users relevant ads and to provide value for its advertisers, the majority of which are small and medium-sized businesses. And they're always showing me utterly irrelevant ads and content ^_^ Not that I complain, I like that they haven't managed to track me well so far. But then again, I do wonder if they'd ever share that info (or if it was leaked), which companies/people would believe about me: whatever I say, or the flawed model that they've built.

davidtranjs 6y ago

This article is not correct. Does Apple track user information? Yes, they just don't sell those data to adverisers but keep those information for themeselves and use it as advantage to sell their services and devices. The number of Facebook users doesn't mean anything because Facebook and Instagram are free services, there are a lot of inactive accounts and bot accounts. In order to publish their apps to app store they have to get approval from Apple and Google. So Apple is still the ultimate gatekeeper.

moooo99 6y ago

Personally, I find basically everything about Instagram bad. The only reason I use it is because a lot of my friends share their pictures there. Their app is full of bugs, at least on my regular Android phone, dark mode always messes up, ghost notifications, random crashes, etc. The platform is full of bots. My profile is set to private, so everybody who wants to follow me needs to request first. On some days, I get requests from 10+ profiles trying to sell porn. And that's without following any big influencers, just friends. The bots also invade basically every public comment section, trying to sell porn or NSFW snapchat. I don't get why they are successful, but I assume they are, given the scale they operate. Their TikTok clone feature that basically completely spams my discover/search tab is full of content taken from TikTok or barely dressed girls trying to push their OnlyFans. Maybe that was the plan, I find it just annoying. And now to their ads, easily one of the most annoying parts. Given how much data Facebook/Instagram is collecting, you'd assume they'd somehow manage to show interesting and relevant advertisings. At least for me and some friends I talked to, that is absolutely not the case. While it feels like every third post is an ad, there is nothing relevant at all. Basically all ads I get on instagram are trying to sell me 100k passive income online courses, cheap Chinese drop shipping products, knockoff products or trading apps (something I was never remotely interested in either).

lostgame 6y ago
I was an early adopter of both Instagram and the iPad. (As an iOS developer, even at the time; I have to keep up with the ecosystem as it evolves.) I waited for years for them to create an iPad-compatible version. It is literally one of the only apps I use that still uses iPhone mode on an iPad. 'According to Mosseri (Instagram CEO), the reason for Instagram’s iPhone-only app is that the company doesn’t have the resources to develop for both platforms.'[1] Eye. Roll. If little indie shops can have this out of the gate, I'm sure you could figure out a way to allocate some of your resources to a tablet version. It's been ten years since both the iPad and Instagram. I get that Instagram is a photo-taking app; and typically you'd use a phone for that. Many of my friends are iPad-only on the Apple ecosystem; and they enjoy taking and editing photos, especially with the Apple Pencil, on the device. The new iPad Pros have excellent cameras for the hardware - not nearly as great as; say, the iPhone 11, but worthy of taking pictures and it happens all the time. [1]https://9to5mac.com/2020/02/16/instagram-ipad-app-excuse/ https://9to5mac.com/2020/02/16/instagram-ipad-app-excuse/

return1 6y ago

Apple seems to be on a PR offensive after a few weeks of bad press and it seems they are employing their usual bloggers to entertain the developer audience. I dunno why devs participate in this PR circus. And btw the author is wrong about comparing to facebook’s platform, which is still the most open, free to use large platform out there.

BlueTemplar 6y ago
That's a bit like saying "the most open, free" jail...
- return1 6y ago
  Yes if course. Developers need to treat all commercial platforms with cynicism and realize that they re honeytraps. You are always allowed to eat at first but then you gotta run out asap

spirographer 6y ago

The reason Instagram's founders are no longer there is because they could not stomach being forced by facebook to publicly make these kinds of statements.

SergeAx 6y ago

> but if their ads are less effective without privacy invasive user-tracking, then so be it, they’re less effective For end advertisers IDFA is not about effectiveness, it's about measuring: we've spent $N on ads at platform X and got Y installs/purchases. Then they can tag those customers with source X and track lifetime value per source. Without analytics like that we are back to times of TV and newspaper and billboard ads, and small business just may not afford that. I think that's the point of original quote. I am not a big fan of Facebook and Instagram, but their ad targeting is indeed best on the market. I understand Apple just want to redirect that cash stream into it's own pocket (see "Apple own search engine" leak couple of weeks ago).

residentfoam 6y ago

I stand with Apple! I deleted my FB account years ago, never used Instagram. Unfortunately I am forced to use WhatsUp because of my family :( . I think it is time to put a stop at this selling user data business. Selling user data and ads is not an Apple business, so I trust Apple vs Google, where the majority of their revenue comes from ads.

higerordermap 6y ago
Apple has to share your data with advertising partners whereas your data doesn't leave Google. Apple patents trivial programming language features and curved phone corners. Apple deceptive marketing is well known. Google has actually contributed lot more than Apple to open source. There is a FOSS app store for android, because it is not a walled garden like iOS. There is privacy, as in Linux culture, and there is "Privacy!!" as in apple marketing. I am not affiliated to Google. But the hate they get here is undeserved.

sizzle 6y ago

Developers working on building adtech are just as unscrupulous and complicit in undermining our privacy as Zuckerberg and Mosseri are in defending their money-printing social media spyware platforms. Change my view if you disagree.