3 ms·

Penguin Classics has a great book containing translations of Ibn Fadlan and other similar Arab accounts, and has a great introduction describing the Arab world

by aksss 6y ago

Penguin Classics has a great book containing translations of Ibn Fadlan and other similar Arab accounts, and has a great introduction describing the Arab world view of the time, particularly how the North was regarded. https://www.amazon.com/Ibn-Fadlan-Land-Darkness-Travellers/dp/0140455078 https://www.amazon.com/Ibn-Fadlan-Land-Darkness-Travellers/d... This book really torpedoed any romantic notions I had of those eras. Basically you just had a lot of motorcycle gangs running around in the forest - imagine Negen from TWD and you get an idea —- it would have sucked to have been alive then. Fascinating talk of the slaving “season”, and comparison of prices for buying a blonde-haired girl at various points along the river. Life was very cheap and might made right. No thanks, man. Not to offend anyone, but it also makes me appreciate the gradual changes that Christianity brought to those forests and to European peoples in time.

Mediterraneo10 6y ago
> Basically you just had a lot of motorcycle gangs running around in the forest Luckily however the Norse, as boat travelers, were mainly limited to the Volga and other large rivers. Outsiders were also reluctant to approach indigenous communities due to the risk of being struck with poison arrows. So, the local peoples could simply move a couple of dozen kilometers from the big river and then never encounter a Norse party in their lives. > it also makes me appreciate the gradual changes that Christianity brought Among the indigenous peoples of the Middle Volga, one finds a strong undercurrent of resentment of Christianity. Not only did people not like losing their traditional religion (animism for the Mari and Chuvash, for example), but the Christianity that the Russians brought was not often kind or compassionate, and it went together with serfdom that was hardly different from slavery. Some have even looked back on the era of Muslim Tatar rule as preferable, because the Tatar Khanate did not practice forced conversions of most other peoples. The Tatars were content to let most of them stay non-Muslim and move freely about the forests, because these peoples could then be used as a very lucrative source of fur taxation.
contingencies 6y ago
appreciate the gradual changes that Christianity brought to those forests... To be fair, Christianity's position is that of chance, Europe could all just as well have been founded on Slavic Paganism, Islam (arguably it largely is and this is insufficiently recognized), Mongol pluralism or some similar belief system. Any nominally centralized society capable of a rule of law and literate record keeping would have had the same effect, if capable of gluing together society long enough to create a surplus and decrease the risks of increased specialization. See earlier civilizations, other parts of the world, etc.
- aksss 6y ago
  “What-if” speculation about history is often a fun and interesting. But it is not history.
  - contingencies 6y ago
    All history is supposition, to some extent. Lest men suspect your tale untrue, keep probability in view.
nradov 6y ago
The Norsemen TV series puts a hilarious dark comedy twist on that reality. Basically a workplace comedy where their job is capturing slaves instead of selling paper. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norsemen_(TV_series) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norsemen_(TV_series)

by aksss 6y ago

Mediterraneo10 6y ago

> Basically you just had a lot of motorcycle gangs running around in the forest Luckily however the Norse, as boat travelers, were mainly limited to the Volga and other large rivers. Outsiders were also reluctant to approach indigenous communities due to the risk of being struck with poison arrows. So, the local peoples could simply move a couple of dozen kilometers from the big river and then never encounter a Norse party in their lives. > it also makes me appreciate the gradual changes that Christianity brought Among the indigenous peoples of the Middle Volga, one finds a strong undercurrent of resentment of Christianity. Not only did people not like losing their traditional religion (animism for the Mari and Chuvash, for example), but the Christianity that the Russians brought was not often kind or compassionate, and it went together with serfdom that was hardly different from slavery. Some have even looked back on the era of Muslim Tatar rule as preferable, because the Tatar Khanate did not practice forced conversions of most other peoples. The Tatars were content to let most of them stay non-Muslim and move freely about the forests, because these peoples could then be used as a very lucrative source of fur taxation.

contingencies 6y ago

appreciate the gradual changes that Christianity brought to those forests... To be fair, Christianity's position is that of chance, Europe could all just as well have been founded on Slavic Paganism, Islam (arguably it largely is and this is insufficiently recognized), Mongol pluralism or some similar belief system. Any nominally centralized society capable of a rule of law and literate record keeping would have had the same effect, if capable of gluing together society long enough to create a surplus and decrease the risks of increased specialization. See earlier civilizations, other parts of the world, etc.

aksss 6y ago
“What-if” speculation about history is often a fun and interesting. But it is not history.
- contingencies 6y ago
  All history is supposition, to some extent. Lest men suspect your tale untrue, keep probability in view.

nradov 6y ago

The Norsemen TV series puts a hilarious dark comedy twist on that reality. Basically a workplace comedy where their job is capturing slaves instead of selling paper. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norsemen_(TV_series) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norsemen_(TV_series)