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I think Epic absolutely needs other major game studios, and major software companies, to join in their protest to effect the desired change. Interesting point

I think Epic absolutely needs other major game studios, and major software companies, to join in their protest to effect the desired change. Interesting point about the looming iOS14 update. Makes you wonder whether Apple will ultimately fall at their privacy sword, similar to how Google fell at its own "Don't do evil" motto. E.g. it's meaningless bravado when not applied to universally to all countries, aka China.

schmichael 6y ago
I wish Mozilla would join them by publishing a Firefox for iOS with their own renderer and Javascript (which they have been prevented from doing). Get booted and join the lawsuit. That's the activist Mozilla I can get behind.
- tomp 6y ago
  How is Mozilla to do that? AFAIK Epic did their move by pushing "legal" iOS code, then doing an over-the-air update of adding non-Apple payment system. Mozilla can't just push a rendering & JavaScript engine "over the air".
  - schmichael 6y ago
    Ah, fair.
  - dilap 6y ago
    Can't they? Is app review actually disassembling the code to see what capabilities it has? Just include both native renderer and webkit, and over the air switch which you use.
    - dimmke 6y ago
      It’d get picked up by binary scanning tools. “Why did your ipa triple in size?” Plus I doubt Mozilla is in the mode to burn months of programmers time on a stunt right now.
  - nodamage 6y ago
    > AFAIK Epic did their move by pushing "legal" iOS code, then doing an over-the-air update of adding non-Apple payment system. No, the code was hidden in the app itself, just disabled via server-side flag. After the app was approved they then flipped the flag to enable it. Source: Epic admits this in their legal filings.
  - basch 6y ago
    compile firefox to javascript, render to canvas, stream the browser on app open.
- procombo 6y ago
  You think Mozilla still has it in them? As a long time Apple user, and open software advocate I'd literally cry tears of joy. I'd also have to throw Zuck a bone if FB joined. I really just want Apple to separate their code signing (Developer) service with their advertising and distribution service (App Store).
  - Razengan 6y ago
    > I'd also have to throw Zuck a bone if FB joined. As a user, it’s appalling to see developers taking the side of user-hostile companies in order to take down a company trying to protect users. It makes me want to avoid any products from such companies and developers.
- jsjohnst 6y ago
  > I wish Mozilla would join them by publishing a Firefox for iOS with their own renderer and Javascript It would likely be unusably slow if they did. Apple doesn’t allow apps in the store with the required entitlements to make an optimized JavaScript engine of entirely Mozilla’s design.
dmitriid 6y ago
> I think Epic absolutely needs other major game studios, and major software companies, to join in their protest to effect the desired change. Would Epic be willing to lead the fight against consoles as well (they charge 30%, too)? Oh, right...
- DennisAleynikov 6y ago
  oh man people assume they aren't fighting the consoles clearly have not read the lawsuits themselves epic is proposing a 12% rate to all the stores and asked Google for it as well, they have fought playstation policies against crossplay and won in the past.
  - dmitriid 6y ago
    > epic is proposing a 12% rate to all the stores and asked Google for it as well "All stores" as in "actually all stores" or "Apple Store and Google Play Store only"? Their entire "fight" is very much targeted, and consoles (which are Epic's key partners) are not really targeted. Moreover, Epic goes out of its way to define consoles as something else.
    - dmitriid 6y ago
      To those who are downvoting, here's Epic's CEO on consoles: --- start quotes --- “The 30 per cent store tax is a high cost in a world where game developers’ 70 per cent must cover all the cost of developing, operating, and supporting their games,” he explains. “There’s a rationale for this on console where there’s enormous investment in hardware, often sold below cost, and marketing campaigns in broad partnership with publishers. But on open platforms, 30 per cent is disproportionate to the cost of the services these stores perform, such as payment processing, download bandwidth, and customer service.” [1] "Consoles are unique in that the hardware is sold at or below the cost of manufacturing, and is subsidized by software sales, whereas iOS and Android are insanely profitable for Apple and Google from just hardware sales and ads." [2] --- end quotes --- Regardless of your opinion on 30% cuts in AppStore and Play Store, these are some really shoddy arguments. [1] 2018, https://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2018-07-31-30-percent-store-tax-is-a-high-cost-says-sweeney-as-fortnite-skips-google-play https://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2018-07-31-30-percent... [2] 2020, https://twitter.com/TimSweeneyEpic/status/1273276548569841667 https://twitter.com/TimSweeneyEpic/status/127327654856984166...
jariel 6y ago
They need more than gaming studios. The top 100 apps on iOS need to do a 'blackout' and pull their apps from iOS for a week. That will make front page international headlines globally and involve the entire planet. That's the kind of scale necessary. Legislators from around the world will take notice whereas right now, probably very few know or care. Don't discount how little the public knows or cares about these kinds of things, most people are busy with their lives they are not paying attention. Few even know or understand the terms of the iOS store let alone what it means. So a focused PR campaign and 'major action' by a lot of players is what is needed. FB, Wikipedia, Netflix, CNN etc. etc..
- cafed00d 6y ago
  Do the top 100 apps on iOS feel the same way though? Does every developer out there think 30% commission on paid apps is tyranny? I feel like it's a reasonable trade-off. Free apps don't cost you much (yes, $99 for dev tools is not much honestly. It keeps away spurious bots and spammy accounts). Paid apps cost 30% -- if the dev decides to charge outrageous prices then well, Apple will take an outrageous cut). Most apps cost $1-$5 which is cheap. Of course, at a billion users it's hefty. But if you're grumpy about that then it just means you're grumpy about a shrewd for-profit company.
  - jariel 6y ago
    "Does every developer out there think 30% commission on paid apps is tyranny?" Combined with the ambiguity, lack of choice, threats to business - absolutely yes, iOS is basically universally reviled by developers. Nobody on this planet accepts that the 30% is necessary for anything ergo, it's a massive chunk out of profits. Most companies are not hugely profitable. In many cases, Apple is making considerable more profit off of apps than developers themselves. For a $1 spent, about 25 cents to Apple mostly profit, then 70 cents to the dev which will mostly be dev., ad. and op. costs. It wouldn't surprise met that Apple makes more surplus from Fornite than Fortnite makes off the platform.
    - throwawaynothx 6y ago

schmichael 6y ago

I wish Mozilla would join them by publishing a Firefox for iOS with their own renderer and Javascript (which they have been prevented from doing). Get booted and join the lawsuit. That's the activist Mozilla I can get behind.

tomp 6y ago
How is Mozilla to do that? AFAIK Epic did their move by pushing "legal" iOS code, then doing an over-the-air update of adding non-Apple payment system. Mozilla can't just push a rendering & JavaScript engine "over the air".
- schmichael 6y ago
  Ah, fair.
- dilap 6y ago
  Can't they? Is app review actually disassembling the code to see what capabilities it has? Just include both native renderer and webkit, and over the air switch which you use.
  - dimmke 6y ago
    It’d get picked up by binary scanning tools. “Why did your ipa triple in size?” Plus I doubt Mozilla is in the mode to burn months of programmers time on a stunt right now.
- nodamage 6y ago
  > AFAIK Epic did their move by pushing "legal" iOS code, then doing an over-the-air update of adding non-Apple payment system. No, the code was hidden in the app itself, just disabled via server-side flag. After the app was approved they then flipped the flag to enable it. Source: Epic admits this in their legal filings.
- basch 6y ago
  compile firefox to javascript, render to canvas, stream the browser on app open.
procombo 6y ago
You think Mozilla still has it in them? As a long time Apple user, and open software advocate I'd literally cry tears of joy. I'd also have to throw Zuck a bone if FB joined. I really just want Apple to separate their code signing (Developer) service with their advertising and distribution service (App Store).
- Razengan 6y ago
  > I'd also have to throw Zuck a bone if FB joined. As a user, it’s appalling to see developers taking the side of user-hostile companies in order to take down a company trying to protect users. It makes me want to avoid any products from such companies and developers.
jsjohnst 6y ago
> I wish Mozilla would join them by publishing a Firefox for iOS with their own renderer and Javascript It would likely be unusably slow if they did. Apple doesn’t allow apps in the store with the required entitlements to make an optimized JavaScript engine of entirely Mozilla’s design.

dmitriid 6y ago

> I think Epic absolutely needs other major game studios, and major software companies, to join in their protest to effect the desired change. Would Epic be willing to lead the fight against consoles as well (they charge 30%, too)? Oh, right...

DennisAleynikov 6y ago
oh man people assume they aren't fighting the consoles clearly have not read the lawsuits themselves epic is proposing a 12% rate to all the stores and asked Google for it as well, they have fought playstation policies against crossplay and won in the past.
- dmitriid 6y ago
  > epic is proposing a 12% rate to all the stores and asked Google for it as well "All stores" as in "actually all stores" or "Apple Store and Google Play Store only"? Their entire "fight" is very much targeted, and consoles (which are Epic's key partners) are not really targeted. Moreover, Epic goes out of its way to define consoles as something else.
  - dmitriid 6y ago
    To those who are downvoting, here's Epic's CEO on consoles: --- start quotes --- “The 30 per cent store tax is a high cost in a world where game developers’ 70 per cent must cover all the cost of developing, operating, and supporting their games,” he explains. “There’s a rationale for this on console where there’s enormous investment in hardware, often sold below cost, and marketing campaigns in broad partnership with publishers. But on open platforms, 30 per cent is disproportionate to the cost of the services these stores perform, such as payment processing, download bandwidth, and customer service.” [1] "Consoles are unique in that the hardware is sold at or below the cost of manufacturing, and is subsidized by software sales, whereas iOS and Android are insanely profitable for Apple and Google from just hardware sales and ads." [2] --- end quotes --- Regardless of your opinion on 30% cuts in AppStore and Play Store, these are some really shoddy arguments. [1] 2018, https://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2018-07-31-30-percent-store-tax-is-a-high-cost-says-sweeney-as-fortnite-skips-google-play https://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2018-07-31-30-percent... [2] 2020, https://twitter.com/TimSweeneyEpic/status/1273276548569841667 https://twitter.com/TimSweeneyEpic/status/127327654856984166...

jariel 6y ago

They need more than gaming studios. The top 100 apps on iOS need to do a 'blackout' and pull their apps from iOS for a week. That will make front page international headlines globally and involve the entire planet. That's the kind of scale necessary. Legislators from around the world will take notice whereas right now, probably very few know or care. Don't discount how little the public knows or cares about these kinds of things, most people are busy with their lives they are not paying attention. Few even know or understand the terms of the iOS store let alone what it means. So a focused PR campaign and 'major action' by a lot of players is what is needed. FB, Wikipedia, Netflix, CNN etc. etc..

cafed00d 6y ago
Do the top 100 apps on iOS feel the same way though? Does every developer out there think 30% commission on paid apps is tyranny? I feel like it's a reasonable trade-off. Free apps don't cost you much (yes, $99 for dev tools is not much honestly. It keeps away spurious bots and spammy accounts). Paid apps cost 30% -- if the dev decides to charge outrageous prices then well, Apple will take an outrageous cut). Most apps cost $1-$5 which is cheap. Of course, at a billion users it's hefty. But if you're grumpy about that then it just means you're grumpy about a shrewd for-profit company.
- jariel 6y ago
  "Does every developer out there think 30% commission on paid apps is tyranny?" Combined with the ambiguity, lack of choice, threats to business - absolutely yes, iOS is basically universally reviled by developers. Nobody on this planet accepts that the 30% is necessary for anything ergo, it's a massive chunk out of profits. Most companies are not hugely profitable. In many cases, Apple is making considerable more profit off of apps than developers themselves. For a $1 spent, about 25 cents to Apple mostly profit, then 70 cents to the dev which will mostly be dev., ad. and op. costs. It wouldn't surprise met that Apple makes more surplus from Fornite than Fortnite makes off the platform.
  - throwawaynothx 6y ago