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Alright, so Apple are forcing all developers to add Sign-in with Apple (if they have other third-party login services), privacy benefits aside. But if you Appl

Alright, so Apple are forcing all developers to add Sign-in with Apple (if they have other third-party login services), privacy benefits aside. But if you Apple decide that they don't like you anymore, they'll not only cut you off the App Store, they'll also bury all (or a subset of) your users. Apple is starting to act more and more like a bully. [1] https://developer.apple.com/app-store/review/guidelines/#sign-in-with-apple https://developer.apple.com/app-store/review/guidelines/#sig...

RL_Quine 6y ago
Intentionally breaking the rules and filing a lawsuit against them with a marketing campaign isn't as if apple just decided they "didn't like" Epic.
- basch 6y ago
  But my identity is my identity. Unless my account is compromised, dont stop ME, the customer, from using MY identity. Right now the major identity providers are all black holes of support, if something goes wrong, you have no recourse to get yourself back. I'd be more ok with Apple not allowing new accounts, but existing accounts should not be removed from people without them agreeing to a transition process to a non sso, local epic account.
- aboringusername 6y ago
  No company should be immune to valid criticism. Microsoft was forced to add a browser pop-up on their OS, because it was considered they were abusing their market position. Of course, retaliation is expected, but Apple has been so inconsistent in their application of the rules that every decision they've ever made is going to be called into question. And you can be sure if there is even a hint at favouritism or revelations they've given certain partners special deals (that perhaps Epic wasn't allowed but Amazon was), then they are well and truly fucked. The EU is not going to mess around. They are going to question every single decision Apple has made, and will make a substantial report into their conduct especially the effects on EU business and the economy. If the EU announces they are investigating you, you should be very, very afraid, they do NOT mess around and will absolutely be at the least issuing a rather substantial financial penalty and changes you will be forced to make within the business (and the OS). Just look at what they've done to Google in the past few years, this is going to be no different. I expect huge changes are coming for Apple in 2021 and I think we'll all be better off for it. So sure, take the actions/steps you want, but be prepared to really defend them, and hope you actually have a case that is applied equally and fairly to all.
  - tehwebguy 6y ago
    What exactly, and please be specific, do you think Apple is doing that is wrong? It is not clear from your comments.
    - supernovae 6y ago
      In the case of Microsoft, they denied the Xbox gaming app on the store after it had already been going through wide beta use on ios. They denied it on the grounds that they need to review every xbox game. Which is nonsense. They don't review every netflix movie, they don't review every spotify song, they don't review other content. The app that was denied doesn't actually download the games either, its a remote/online streaming player so it is exactly like "netflix for games". Rumor is, Amazon was cut a deal and others have had a deal so the rules don't seem applied in a fair way. Amazon isn't forced to use Apple Pay for example. (which i think is the part specific with this specific case)
      - Spivak 6y ago
        But that doesn't make a lot of sense. Say this case was actually about Nintendo and the Switch. Nintendo doesn't allow any X rated games anywhere ever on their platform. And then this game comes along that, to the user, just plays other games. Why shouldn't they be reviewed like everything else on the platform? To the user the implementation doesn't matter.
        supernovae 6y ago
        Xbox doesn't allow "X rated" games and the all games have an ESRB rating that could be enforced as native app controls just like music streaming, tv & video streaming. in fact, it's safer than Youtube if safety is a concern...
        Spivak 6y ago
        I'm not saying Xbox does allow that kind of content. Just that "we're an app that runs arbitrary other apps and the discretion for what is available and the rules they follow is ours instead of Apple's despite the fact that to the user they might as well be running locally on the phone."
- modeless 6y ago
  Epic alleges that Apple is breaking the law, and breaking the App Store rules was a pretty much required step to establish standing to sue. Is Apple above the legal system, such that they should be able to destroy businesses that dare to challenge them in court, regardless of the merits of their claims and before they are even heard?
  - RL_Quine 6y ago
    Where does the marketing campaign fit into your story?
    - modeless 6y ago
      Epic has a customer base that won't understand the nuances of the case. If they didn't tell their story to their customers in a way they can understand, they would suffer a lot of damage to their reputation, regardless of whether they are right or wrong, because customers are being cut off from a product they enjoyed. They will suffer reputation damage anyway, but they at least stand a chance of convincing some of their customers that they have a good reason for taking these actions.
    - ksk 6y ago
      There was also a marketing campaign for Net Neutrality by pretty much every single tech company. It's perfectly fine that anyone at anytime can raise awareness for their cause. And in this case, the cause is in everyones interest who is losing 30% of their sales to Apple in an immoral tax.
  - minhazm 6y ago
    Your comment makes it sound it sound like Apple is breaking the law. Epic could have brought on this lawsuit while still complying with the App Store rules, in fact the judge suggested they do that so their users aren't impacted. They wouldn't be getting kicked off right now and the Sign-in with Apple button wouldn't be getting disabled. They chose to break the app store rules, which they did agreed to, AND they also decided to sue Apple. They could revert their app right now and Apple would restore their account and they could still continue their lawsuit. Epic is just weaponizing their user base in their fight against Apple.
- staticman2 6y ago
  Epic's legal position as I understand it is that Apple is behaving illegally and they likely had to break the illegal rule for standing to sue.
  - ogre_codes 6y ago
    The judge in this case have suggested that the case can proceed if Epic reverts their contract breaking changes. Apple has made it clear in court that if Epic reverts their changes they can restore their standing in the App Store. > they likely had to break the illegal rule for standing to sue. I'm not sure if this was ever true, but it's quite clear at this point that they can make their app comply with App Store policies and and continue their lawsuit at this point.
    - staticman2 6y ago
      Litigation had just begun and you believe the judge has already made a ruling on standing? Sorry I don't know where you got this idea but that's now how the legal system works. Do feel free to quote a written ruling from the judge if you think I am off base. A binding ruling on standing which Apple has had the chance to appeal to the Supreme Court. You do know the trial judge isn't even the final judge that would decide on an issue of standing, correct? Not only is your claim implausible, but a lower court judge doesn't have the final say on standing even if your claim was true.
      - ogre_codes 6y ago
        “[t]he sensible way to proceed is for [Epic to comply with the agreements and guidelines] and continue to operate while it builds a record.” Id. “Any injury that [Epic Games] incurs by following a different course is of its own choosing.” Id. Page 5 https://www.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.cand.364265/gov.uscourts.cand.364265.48.0.pdf https://www.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.cand.364265...
  - nodamage 6y ago
    Epic already had standing to sue from the $300 million in Fortnite IAP fees Apple has collected.
aclelland 6y ago
It also shows that Apple really don't care about their customers and would rather stick it to Epic than continue to support the people who choose to use their login system. If Apple wanted to show some goodwill towards the end users who were caught up in this mess they'd continue to allow them to log in or provide a migration path. I wonder if this will be used against Apple in the future since it's clearly hurting people of they lose access to their game, progress and purchases.
- moksly 6y ago
  I think you’re vastly underrating the seriousness in which a company like Apple would treat this matter. They aren’t a petty child or a bully. They’re a company, and their market research likely show them that the key advantage they have over Android is their closed, easy to use and secure ecosystem. If Epic succeeds in breaking that, they’ll lose a lot more than 30% of the 20 ish millions a month that Epic is currently losing on this ordeal.
  - mantap 6y ago
    Apple prevents people who paid $10000s for their top-of-the-line computer, from using an equally top-of-the-line GPU from Nvidia, because ~10 years ago some Nvidia laptop GPUs had problems and Apple is obsessive about punishing them. Apple does act like a petty child, and a rather obnoxious one at that. They are the worst kind of company, one that considers it is doing you a favour by allowing you to be their customer. Sent from my iPhone.
    - fomine3 6y ago
      I suspect that why Apple prevents using NVidia is because they won't support Metal and force support CUDA.
- cmbailey 6y ago
  > If Apple wanted to show some goodwill towards the end users who were caught up in this mess they'd continue to allow them to log in or provide a migration path. From the original article: Customers will be able to "update to a standard email address and password" and, even after the deadline to do that, "those who did not transition from Sign in with Apple may be able to contact Epic Games to have their accounts recovered manually."
smnrchrds 6y ago
It appears that Apple deeply believes all iOS users are, fundamentally, Apple's customers, not the customers of any apps or services they use n their Apple device. It is consistent with their belief to take away Apple users from companies they no longer want to do business with.
chasing 6y ago
> But if Apple decide that they don't like you anymore... Epic intentionally broke the rules. Maybe Apple's actions are right, maybe wrong. But don't pretend Apple just out-of-the-blue decided to do this to Epic for no reason.
- FreeFull 6y ago
  Epic did intentionally break the rules here, but I definitely have seen stories on HN before where Apple would refuse to let an app pass review without providing a proper reason why, and some more shadier things. If they do decide they don't like a developer, that developer really has little recourse.
animex 6y ago
And don't forget if you offer sign-in with G or F, and you don't add Sign in with A, you'll be in violation as well.
m3kw9 6y ago
How childish is saying Apple doesn’t like Epic. They violated the terms, they wanted all this to happen and expected it. No one should be surprised they planned this months ahead

RL_Quine 6y ago

Intentionally breaking the rules and filing a lawsuit against them with a marketing campaign isn't as if apple just decided they "didn't like" Epic.

basch 6y ago
But my identity is my identity. Unless my account is compromised, dont stop ME, the customer, from using MY identity. Right now the major identity providers are all black holes of support, if something goes wrong, you have no recourse to get yourself back. I'd be more ok with Apple not allowing new accounts, but existing accounts should not be removed from people without them agreeing to a transition process to a non sso, local epic account.
aboringusername 6y ago
No company should be immune to valid criticism. Microsoft was forced to add a browser pop-up on their OS, because it was considered they were abusing their market position. Of course, retaliation is expected, but Apple has been so inconsistent in their application of the rules that every decision they've ever made is going to be called into question. And you can be sure if there is even a hint at favouritism or revelations they've given certain partners special deals (that perhaps Epic wasn't allowed but Amazon was), then they are well and truly fucked. The EU is not going to mess around. They are going to question every single decision Apple has made, and will make a substantial report into their conduct especially the effects on EU business and the economy. If the EU announces they are investigating you, you should be very, very afraid, they do NOT mess around and will absolutely be at the least issuing a rather substantial financial penalty and changes you will be forced to make within the business (and the OS). Just look at what they've done to Google in the past few years, this is going to be no different. I expect huge changes are coming for Apple in 2021 and I think we'll all be better off for it. So sure, take the actions/steps you want, but be prepared to really defend them, and hope you actually have a case that is applied equally and fairly to all.
- tehwebguy 6y ago
  What exactly, and please be specific, do you think Apple is doing that is wrong? It is not clear from your comments.
  - supernovae 6y ago
    In the case of Microsoft, they denied the Xbox gaming app on the store after it had already been going through wide beta use on ios. They denied it on the grounds that they need to review every xbox game. Which is nonsense. They don't review every netflix movie, they don't review every spotify song, they don't review other content. The app that was denied doesn't actually download the games either, its a remote/online streaming player so it is exactly like "netflix for games". Rumor is, Amazon was cut a deal and others have had a deal so the rules don't seem applied in a fair way. Amazon isn't forced to use Apple Pay for example. (which i think is the part specific with this specific case)
    - Spivak 6y ago
      But that doesn't make a lot of sense. Say this case was actually about Nintendo and the Switch. Nintendo doesn't allow any X rated games anywhere ever on their platform. And then this game comes along that, to the user, just plays other games. Why shouldn't they be reviewed like everything else on the platform? To the user the implementation doesn't matter.
      - supernovae 6y ago
        Xbox doesn't allow "X rated" games and the all games have an ESRB rating that could be enforced as native app controls just like music streaming, tv & video streaming. in fact, it's safer than Youtube if safety is a concern...
        Spivak 6y ago
        I'm not saying Xbox does allow that kind of content. Just that "we're an app that runs arbitrary other apps and the discretion for what is available and the rules they follow is ours instead of Apple's despite the fact that to the user they might as well be running locally on the phone."
modeless 6y ago
Epic alleges that Apple is breaking the law, and breaking the App Store rules was a pretty much required step to establish standing to sue. Is Apple above the legal system, such that they should be able to destroy businesses that dare to challenge them in court, regardless of the merits of their claims and before they are even heard?
- RL_Quine 6y ago
  Where does the marketing campaign fit into your story?
  - modeless 6y ago
    Epic has a customer base that won't understand the nuances of the case. If they didn't tell their story to their customers in a way they can understand, they would suffer a lot of damage to their reputation, regardless of whether they are right or wrong, because customers are being cut off from a product they enjoyed. They will suffer reputation damage anyway, but they at least stand a chance of convincing some of their customers that they have a good reason for taking these actions.
  - ksk 6y ago
    There was also a marketing campaign for Net Neutrality by pretty much every single tech company. It's perfectly fine that anyone at anytime can raise awareness for their cause. And in this case, the cause is in everyones interest who is losing 30% of their sales to Apple in an immoral tax.
- minhazm 6y ago
  Your comment makes it sound it sound like Apple is breaking the law. Epic could have brought on this lawsuit while still complying with the App Store rules, in fact the judge suggested they do that so their users aren't impacted. They wouldn't be getting kicked off right now and the Sign-in with Apple button wouldn't be getting disabled. They chose to break the app store rules, which they did agreed to, AND they also decided to sue Apple. They could revert their app right now and Apple would restore their account and they could still continue their lawsuit. Epic is just weaponizing their user base in their fight against Apple.
staticman2 6y ago
Epic's legal position as I understand it is that Apple is behaving illegally and they likely had to break the illegal rule for standing to sue.
- ogre_codes 6y ago
  The judge in this case have suggested that the case can proceed if Epic reverts their contract breaking changes. Apple has made it clear in court that if Epic reverts their changes they can restore their standing in the App Store. > they likely had to break the illegal rule for standing to sue. I'm not sure if this was ever true, but it's quite clear at this point that they can make their app comply with App Store policies and and continue their lawsuit at this point.
  - staticman2 6y ago
    Litigation had just begun and you believe the judge has already made a ruling on standing? Sorry I don't know where you got this idea but that's now how the legal system works. Do feel free to quote a written ruling from the judge if you think I am off base. A binding ruling on standing which Apple has had the chance to appeal to the Supreme Court. You do know the trial judge isn't even the final judge that would decide on an issue of standing, correct? Not only is your claim implausible, but a lower court judge doesn't have the final say on standing even if your claim was true.
    - ogre_codes 6y ago
      “[t]he sensible way to proceed is for [Epic to comply with the agreements and guidelines] and continue to operate while it builds a record.” Id. “Any injury that [Epic Games] incurs by following a different course is of its own choosing.” Id. Page 5 https://www.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.cand.364265/gov.uscourts.cand.364265.48.0.pdf https://www.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.cand.364265...
- nodamage 6y ago
  Epic already had standing to sue from the $300 million in Fortnite IAP fees Apple has collected.

aclelland 6y ago

It also shows that Apple really don't care about their customers and would rather stick it to Epic than continue to support the people who choose to use their login system. If Apple wanted to show some goodwill towards the end users who were caught up in this mess they'd continue to allow them to log in or provide a migration path. I wonder if this will be used against Apple in the future since it's clearly hurting people of they lose access to their game, progress and purchases.

moksly 6y ago
I think you’re vastly underrating the seriousness in which a company like Apple would treat this matter. They aren’t a petty child or a bully. They’re a company, and their market research likely show them that the key advantage they have over Android is their closed, easy to use and secure ecosystem. If Epic succeeds in breaking that, they’ll lose a lot more than 30% of the 20 ish millions a month that Epic is currently losing on this ordeal.
- mantap 6y ago
  Apple prevents people who paid $10000s for their top-of-the-line computer, from using an equally top-of-the-line GPU from Nvidia, because ~10 years ago some Nvidia laptop GPUs had problems and Apple is obsessive about punishing them. Apple does act like a petty child, and a rather obnoxious one at that. They are the worst kind of company, one that considers it is doing you a favour by allowing you to be their customer. Sent from my iPhone.
  - fomine3 6y ago
    I suspect that why Apple prevents using NVidia is because they won't support Metal and force support CUDA.
cmbailey 6y ago
> If Apple wanted to show some goodwill towards the end users who were caught up in this mess they'd continue to allow them to log in or provide a migration path. From the original article: Customers will be able to "update to a standard email address and password" and, even after the deadline to do that, "those who did not transition from Sign in with Apple may be able to contact Epic Games to have their accounts recovered manually."

smnrchrds 6y ago

It appears that Apple deeply believes all iOS users are, fundamentally, Apple's customers, not the customers of any apps or services they use n their Apple device. It is consistent with their belief to take away Apple users from companies they no longer want to do business with.

chasing 6y ago

> But if Apple decide that they don't like you anymore... Epic intentionally broke the rules. Maybe Apple's actions are right, maybe wrong. But don't pretend Apple just out-of-the-blue decided to do this to Epic for no reason.

FreeFull 6y ago
Epic did intentionally break the rules here, but I definitely have seen stories on HN before where Apple would refuse to let an app pass review without providing a proper reason why, and some more shadier things. If they do decide they don't like a developer, that developer really has little recourse.

animex 6y ago

And don't forget if you offer sign-in with G or F, and you don't add Sign in with A, you'll be in violation as well.

m3kw9 6y ago

How childish is saying Apple doesn’t like Epic. They violated the terms, they wanted all this to happen and expected it. No one should be surprised they planned this months ahead