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This article is pretty interesting. - Supposedly Amazon has operated things like AWS at a loss for long periods of time (I highly doubt this - AWS has never be

This article is pretty interesting. - Supposedly Amazon has operated things like AWS at a loss for long periods of time (I highly doubt this - AWS has never been cheap). "And it's through this mass adoption of Alexa devices that consumers (and the army of human beings Amazon hires to listen to consumers) can collectively train Amazon’s voice recognition system, which is then monetized through Amazon’s primary source of profits: Amazon Web Services." There is no way Amazon has echo / alexa out there just so it can develop a language recognition model. They could just record their customer service reps talking to customers, train it on the millions of movies and shows with subtitles on amazon prime or train using audio book narrations. And the profits from their transcription service are not likely very high relative to other services they offer. Whoever becomes the device that people want in their home, the one they turn to to coordinate their heating and cooling, arming their security system, getting the weather and traffic is going to be in an incredible position. Google is also chasing this market, and apple to a degree. Google has an incredible voice recognition model already. They are chasing this market because it is THE most powerful and personal way to have a connection to the consumer. If you don't understand WHY these companies want apple siri, google assistant or amazon alexa everywhere you don't see the future. These companies will OWN consumer loyalty. A child growing up in a amazon echo / alexa integrated house may become a lifelong brand consumer including when they buy their house and setup their home automation etc. The other thing, despite all the claims about "amazon microphones" - people will PAY for these - by the truckload. If I could get a space already pre-integrated with home automation etc? Very appealing. And normal people do call these things echo devices or alexa. These companies are trying to deliver things to consumers that generate high brand loyalty. It seems to be working. I noticed this when browsing for cars - EVERY salesperson emphasizes that their cars supports "apple" carplay etc. My guess - 50%+ of even CAR buyers want to have a connection to their brand loyal assistant.

donmcronald 6y ago
TLDR; Alexa buy batteries.
- PopeDotNinja 6y ago
  I’m never going tie my money to a voice activated anything. The last thing I need is to have a prankster on YouTube say “Alexa buy 1000 rolls of toilet paper” at March 2020 prices.
  - pbronez 6y ago
    Sure, but the people who do buy things via Alexa buy way more stuff from Amazon. Just owning an echo suggests you’re one of Amazon’s most lucrative customers: https://www.fool.com/investing/2018/01/13/look-how-much-amazon-echo-owners-are-spending-on-a.aspx https://www.fool.com/investing/2018/01/13/look-how-much-amaz...
    - whoopdedo 6y ago
      That article only says that Prime members spend more than non-Prime, and that Alexa users are more likely to be Prime members. It then uses the high sales numbers of Alexa-enabled devices to conclude that spending on Amazon is going to increase. The problem is this: > In a press release earlier this month, Amazon revealed the Echo Dot was one of the two "best-selling products purchased by U.S. Prime members from any manufacturer in any category across all of Amazon" (the other was the Fire TV Stick). The month in question was December. All those Echos and Fire Sticks were being bought to give as gifts. How many of those get used a dozen times before the new owner loses interest and it gets left unplugged in a drawer? I'll be generous and say it could be as much as 55% since the sales were for Prime members and holiday gifts are frequently exchanged among family, so the Echo will end up in the same Prime household. But why should I believe that giving an Echo to a non-Prime member will increase their engagement with Amazon at all?
  - ywhjaknskkkw 6y ago
    Imagine: the horror of having to say "Alexa cancel order"
  - rapnie 6y ago
    Well, who knows. Maybe soon it will have voiceprint and the delivery automatically goes to the prankster's home address. /s
jentist_retol 6y ago
>operated things like AWS at a loss for long periods They are spending billions of dollars to expand into new markets and improve existing offerings. They are definitely spending more than they make. Of course, it would be ludicrous to suggest AWS is not insanely lucrative. But, technically correct is the best kind of correct, right? >There is no way Amazon has echo / alexa out there just so it can develop a language recognition model. Google famously did it with goog411, Amazon's claim here is the best kind of lie: it's not technically a lie >These companies will OWN consumer loyalty. Im locked into alexa. and now, i'm digging my way out. I fell into the trap!
- newyorker2 6y ago
  I locked myself in and committed to it. The best time to invest in AMZN was 10 years ago, the next best time is now.
  - TaylorAlexander 6y ago
    You too can profit off mass surveillance.
- Bedon292 6y ago
  The majority of Amazon profit (not revenue) is from AWS. And AWS started because they already had the servers for holiday surge capacity. Was extremely lucrative, so they invested more in it. Maybe in the first years there was a loss there. They didn't start separating the numbers until 2012, and in 2015 their margins were ~25% on AWS [1]. So sure they are spending billions, but they are not spending more than they make on AWS. Perhaps Alexa / Echo are not directly profitable as a device, but they make money from people buying stuff on Amazon.com with it, and gain that brand loyalty from it. Which has definite value. But there are estimates it costs somewhere around ~$30 to produce one [2]. So at ~$60, its very profitable. And when they sell them for $30 for a special or something, its still in the break even area. A couple sales and you are in the black. [1] https://www.wired.com/2015/10/get-used-to-amazon-being-a-profitable-company/ https://www.wired.com/2015/10/get-used-to-amazon-being-a-pro... [2] https://voicebot.ai/2018/02/15/apple-homepod-costs-216-manufacture/ https://voicebot.ai/2018/02/15/apple-homepod-costs-216-manuf...
dalbasal 6y ago
AWS is not a loss leader. It's very profitable. $16.3bn in the last 12 months for AMZN as a whole. Most (if not >100%) of the profit is from AWS. https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/AMZN/financials https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/AMZN/financials
Reason077 6y ago
> ”Supposedly Amazon has operated things like AWS at a loss for long periods of time” The article is implying that devices like the Echo are loss-leaders which drive profits elsewhere at Amazon. As stated in the article, AWS made $11.3 billion profit on $48 billion revenue in the last fiscal year. AWS has been profitable since 2015, and is now the majority of Amazon’s profits.
mola 6y ago
If people are willing to install amazon microphone in their home. Why can't we call them amazon microphones? Why does amazon try to hide that under a meaningless word like "device"?
- fastball 6y ago
  I think it's a reasonable distinction. The Echo is much more than "a microphone". Yes, it has a microphone, and I don't think Amazon is trying to pretend it doesn't. But a smart speaker is obviously not just a passive listening device, as implied by "Amazon microphone".
  - chris5745 6y ago
    When will the truth be palatable? When we normalize it. By calling the device an Amazon microphone, we are telling the truth that this device is a listening device, not just a speaker. This name has less sugar coating, so if it is still too bitter, just call it what you want.
    - recrudesce 6y ago
      By that logic, your phone should be called a "microphone". Ignore all the additional stuff it can do, it has a microphone, therefore it's OBVIOUSLY a passive listening device, ergo "microphone" /s
      - Xelbair 6y ago
        Well it is quite more. It also tracks your position via satellites.
- nulbyte 6y ago
  I don't think they are, and Amazon might not think so either. I think people would be less willing to install these devices if they were more often called Amazon microphones.
- rapnie 6y ago
jonathanlydall 6y ago
> My guess - 50%+ of even CAR buyers want to have a connection to their brand loyal assistant. For me it's that I don't want to be beholden to the car manufacturers schedule of updates or choice of features. The only thing that really dated on my previous car and tempted me to look at buying a new one was things like lack of bluetooth audio and no big screen for maps. As an example, it tends to cost extra (at least it did historically) for maps in cars, I've also heard of having to pay annual fees for updates to those maps and even when the maps are "upto date", their information is still not as good as say Google Maps on your phone. So you land up with these expensive luxury cars, with huge infotainment screens, and then people still using a smart phone with its little screen on the side with its maps app simply because it's substantially more usable than what the car provides. Additionally, each car manafacturer has their own version of media players and capabilities all with varying amount of features. They all insist on figuratively re-inventing the wheel, and landing up with one which is still way worse than my rapidly evolving phone and its apps. Car infotainment systems these days should be little more than a largely dumb interface to my smart phone so that for the 10-20 years I own the car, I get regular updates on its utility as my smart phone and its apps improve.
- patrickk 6y ago
  > Car infotainment systems these days should be little more than a largely dumb interface to my smart phone so that for the 10-20 years I own the car, I get regular updates on its utility as my smart phone and its apps improve. That doesn't align with car makers incentives and business plans. Right now, all the talk is about mobility services (which don't make a profit for anyone currently) and chasing Tesla. They need something to replace spare parts and servicing, which is where all the profit is. With COVID, the EU commission fines on CO2, and the beginnings of EVs taking over (=spare parts and servicing will be reduced to almost nothing), they need a future profit generator. Except that doesn't line up with what consumers want.
  - alistairSH 6y ago
    That doesn't align with car makers incentives If does if lack of CapPlay/Android Auto prevents sales. I won't buy a car that doesn't have them. I don't want to install more apps just for my car. I don't want to learn new systems when the native integration works just fine. I certainly don't want to pay for updated navigation when I get it "free" from Apple or Google. For a while, that meant no Toyota/Lexus (it appears they've since caved and have native phone integration).
me_me_me 6y ago
The only device I would allow in my house is a module that translate language. Locally within the unit. So that it can be bundled with my controller that would make use of the translation/parsed voice command. I do not trust Amazon/Google/CorpXYZ with running a microphone in my house.
- jmnicolas 6y ago
  Yet if you have a smartphone you trust the manufacturer with running a microphone everywhere you go.
  - vetinari 6y ago
    Try putting a lav mic into your pocket or bag, and then listen how much non-muffled audio you get and how much you can understand from it. Phones are in similar position. Assistant devices are not, they are usually in a fixed location with a unobstructed way to the environment.
    - jmnicolas 6y ago
      I agree but to be fair my phone spends a lot of time laying on a table near me.
    - bacondude3 6y ago
      Placing your phone in your pocket to record audio discreetly works great, unless you're moving a lot. When you're sitting or standing still, the audio is almost perfectly clear.
    - kube-system 6y ago
      It is worth noting that human voice is not the only audio you might want to collect from an open mic. Ultrasonic beacons are not uncommon.
  - me_me_me 6y ago
    By that logic I can only live in Faraday's cage or not complain at all?? You can complain about banking system and be proponent of bitcoin while having a bank account and paying for goods with fiat currency.
1vuio0pswjnm7 6y ago
All it takes is one major "trust incident" and accompanying press coverage to destroy "brand loyalty". There are still too many folks who see these for what they are: remotely-controlled microphones. That is why Amazon is asking for the wording of the article to be changed. Otherwise why would they care, if the manifest destiny you describe is true. More likely, no one can be sure yet whose normative behaviour will prevail: those welcoming the microphones or those rejecting them. It is what it is: an internet-connected computer with the mic always on. Eventually the Jetsons novelty wears off. Imagine every product with an embedded computer connecting to the internet without any user intervention and having a built-in mic always listening, purporting to be "voice-operated". One can only speculate as to what sort of incident would threaten brand loyalty; no one knows. All we know is there is some history of opposition to mass surveillance.
- pgrote 6y ago
  >All it takes is one major "trust incident" and accompanying press coverage to destroy "brand loyalty". What event could meet that rise to that level that already hasn't happened?
Xelbair 6y ago
While their end goal is pretty clear(brand loyalty, profiling).. i doubt that it will come to pass with our current tech. Lets face it - IT professionals do not trust such systems, nor use them - they are inferior to any type of input mode at the moment. Most normal people do not care about them, nor use them. There is vocal but relatively niche group of tech enthusiasts who are really into it, but they are already a brand loyalists. On a side note - the whole concept of brand loyalty is completely idiotic from consumer PoV. There is no merit for the customer in it.
- sokoloff 6y ago
  My kitchen Alexa has an excellent user interface for kitchen timers and casual music listening IMO.
  - Spivak 6y ago
    For me the killer app for voice assistants is in the kitchen 100%. Being able to juggle a bunch of timers, control the AC and fans, dictate to multiple lists, play music, control the TV, and respond to texts while my hands are covered in food is easily worth the like $40 the thing cost. I'm not super impressed with any of the assistants "smart" features but in terms of being able to shout canned commands at it in a noisy environment it's top notch.
- Timpy 6y ago
  In this case "brand loyalty" is just the chrysalis of vendor lock. At first you use it because it's convenient, then the model changes and your digital ecosystem is held hostage. Microsoft did this with my generation and Office, Google is capturing the next generation with Docs and Chromebooks in every school. Amazon microphones endeavor to be brand-synonymous with smart homes of the future. The more they can integrate with your Amazon account, phone, tablet, Smart-TV, HVAC, security, grocery list, etc., the more "brand loyal" you will be.
- Loughla 6y ago
  >Most normal people do not care about them, nor use them. >There is vocal but relatively niche group of tech enthusiasts who are really into it, but they are already a brand loyalists. Are you serious? My 97 year old grandpa even asked me to set up an Alexa for him, so he could shout at her to check the weather. My most tech illiterate friends LOVE those devices, because they're so easy to use.
hacym 6y ago
Wasn't AWS the only profitable part of Amazon, and was propping up their retail section so they could spend money on customer acquisition? Pretty sure I remember reading about this strategy -- they basically used it as a way to make it possible to undercut competitors and do things like taking a loss on shipping without basically going broke.
- josefx 6y ago
  Yes and almost exactly what the article claims. Only it goes a step further to imply that Amazon is loosing money on other products to encourage AWS adoption. Not sure how the other comment interprets it as "AWS is loosing money".
kelnage 6y ago
> There is no way Amazon has echo / alexa out there just so it can develop a language recognition model. They could just record their customer service reps talking to customers, train it on the millions of movies and shows with subtitles on amazon prime or train using audio book narrations Training their recognition model on a range of pre-recorded, staged audio sources would likely result in it being very good at generating subtitles - but not much else. As for the telephone, again, it's relatively different (the customer reps will likely be using a script in some cases, and are going to be putting a lot of effort into being comprehensible). And neither would effectively simulate the situations (for example, a noisy family home) an Alexa will likely be used in.
indigochill 6y ago
Satya Nadella made a parallel observation that operating systems have moved off of particular hardware (e.g. running Windows 95 on your PC) and into more of a consistent interface for interacting with all the devices in our lives, thus Microsoft Office's transition to a cloud service (and his general push for Microsoft to become more serious about the cloud). Even though I don't care a bit about brand loyalty, I can definitely see the appeal of every device (PC, phone, car, TV, eReader, watch, whatever) all sharing the same abstract "operating system" interface, sharing your preferences, schedule, etc without the user having to even think about syncing this information. There's obviously a lot of appeal to a corporation to have this data as well, but even those of us who are opposed to the corporate abuse of data have to acknowledge this is the future. I'm optimistic that an open-source self-hosted solution can accomplish the same thing, but I'm not sure one actually exists yet.
- einpoklum 6y ago
  > Satya Nadella made a parallel observation that operating systems have moved off of particular hardware (e.g. running Windows 95 on your PC) and into more of a consistent interface for interacting with all the devices in our lives They haven't. But Microsoft (and perhaps Google?) would like for this to happen - with their kind of OS, user interface and cloud "services". > have to acknowledge this is the future. Well, absolutist monarchy used to be the future, in the middle ages. Never too early to get started on bringing the future after the future.
- RandoHolmes 6y ago
  > Even though I don't care a bit about brand loyalty, I can definitely see the appeal of every device (PC, phone, car, TV, eReader, watch, whatever) all sharing the same abstract "operating system" interface, sharing your preferences, schedule, etc without the user having to even think about syncing this information. Apple has been doing this for something like 10-20 years now.
jkinudsjknds 6y ago
> There is no way Amazon has echo / alexa out there just so it can develop a language recognition model. They could just record their customer service reps talking to customers, train it on the millions of movies and shows with subtitles on amazon prime or train using audio book narrations. And the profits from their transcription service are not likely very high relative to other services they offer. They might reasonably believe that a generic language model isn't as useful as one specifically trained to handle customer requests. They do have an army of people manually listening to the requests and responses and labeling them as good or bad.
Spivak 6y ago
> EVERY salesperson emphasizes that their cars supports "apple" carplay etc. This is a completely different market and there are different motivations for people being so loyal to Android Auto and CarPlay. They're the first infotainment interfaces that do what they should have done from the beginning, just be a nice porcelain / glorified screen to my phone.
photonemitter 6y ago
This reminded me; People seem way too comfortable / in the dark when it comes to voice-cloning, which, with the added data of general speech-patterns, is likely to become a major issue wrt political/legal issues. see: https://github.com/CorentinJ/Real-Time-Voice-Cloning https://github.com/CorentinJ/Real-Time-Voice-Cloning (think it made its rounds here on HN before) Conceptually, even though it currently is a market-strategy where the benefits are as you point out. In the longer term this could be argued as an uncomfortable seat of power to whoever sits on the user-data. (without bringing up too much of that issue here... might be time to generate obfuscation of voice similarly to the obfuscation of google-searching which I've seen on here earlier=)
brian_herman__ 6y ago
On your point where you said "Supposedly Amazon has operated things like AWS at a loss for long periods of time" I agree AWS hasn't been losing money for a long time. https://www.businessinsider.com/amazon-earnings-aws-amazon-web-services-10-billion-quarterly-revenue-2020-4 https://www.businessinsider.com/amazon-earnings-aws-amazon-w... https://www.forbes.com/sites/petercohan/2020/01/06/how-much-of-amazons-73-billion-aws-profit-will-rivals-win/#4206fb735bcd https://www.forbes.com/sites/petercohan/2020/01/06/how-much-... edit:Formatting
at-fates-hands 6y ago
> If I could get a space already pre-integrated with home automation etc? Very appealing. And normal people do call these things echo devices or alexa. I've spoken with several architects and builders who are telling me more people want a "smart house" when they buy/design/build their next house. Builders are now creating model homes with nearly everything connected (alexa, nest, home apps, etc) and leaving some options open to their buyers. This is very much something that is already here.
ska 6y ago
> My guess - 50%+ of even CAR buyers want to have a connection to their brand loyal assistant. I don't think this is what drives it. Most car companies are just bad at (software) interface and inconsistent between makes and models; carplay etc. has the dual improvement of a) isolating you from these changes somewhat and b) usually giving a better UX
sorokod 6y ago
A child growing up in a "amazon echo / alexa integrated house may become a lifelong brand consumer including when they buy their house and setup their home automation etc." Yes, and etc. What a distopian vision, they should make a Black Mirror episode based on this, or perhaps they already did. Edit: there is an interview with Charlie Brooker where he says that ideas that are not good enough for the series they sell to Samsung.

donmcronald 6y ago

TLDR; Alexa buy batteries.

PopeDotNinja 6y ago
I’m never going tie my money to a voice activated anything. The last thing I need is to have a prankster on YouTube say “Alexa buy 1000 rolls of toilet paper” at March 2020 prices.
- pbronez 6y ago
  Sure, but the people who do buy things via Alexa buy way more stuff from Amazon. Just owning an echo suggests you’re one of Amazon’s most lucrative customers: https://www.fool.com/investing/2018/01/13/look-how-much-amazon-echo-owners-are-spending-on-a.aspx https://www.fool.com/investing/2018/01/13/look-how-much-amaz...
  - whoopdedo 6y ago
    That article only says that Prime members spend more than non-Prime, and that Alexa users are more likely to be Prime members. It then uses the high sales numbers of Alexa-enabled devices to conclude that spending on Amazon is going to increase. The problem is this: > In a press release earlier this month, Amazon revealed the Echo Dot was one of the two "best-selling products purchased by U.S. Prime members from any manufacturer in any category across all of Amazon" (the other was the Fire TV Stick). The month in question was December. All those Echos and Fire Sticks were being bought to give as gifts. How many of those get used a dozen times before the new owner loses interest and it gets left unplugged in a drawer? I'll be generous and say it could be as much as 55% since the sales were for Prime members and holiday gifts are frequently exchanged among family, so the Echo will end up in the same Prime household. But why should I believe that giving an Echo to a non-Prime member will increase their engagement with Amazon at all?
- ywhjaknskkkw 6y ago
  Imagine: the horror of having to say "Alexa cancel order"
- rapnie 6y ago
  Well, who knows. Maybe soon it will have voiceprint and the delivery automatically goes to the prankster's home address. /s

jentist_retol 6y ago

>operated things like AWS at a loss for long periods They are spending billions of dollars to expand into new markets and improve existing offerings. They are definitely spending more than they make. Of course, it would be ludicrous to suggest AWS is not insanely lucrative. But, technically correct is the best kind of correct, right? >There is no way Amazon has echo / alexa out there just so it can develop a language recognition model. Google famously did it with goog411, Amazon's claim here is the best kind of lie: it's not technically a lie >These companies will OWN consumer loyalty. Im locked into alexa. and now, i'm digging my way out. I fell into the trap!

newyorker2 6y ago
I locked myself in and committed to it. The best time to invest in AMZN was 10 years ago, the next best time is now.
- TaylorAlexander 6y ago
  You too can profit off mass surveillance.
Bedon292 6y ago
The majority of Amazon profit (not revenue) is from AWS. And AWS started because they already had the servers for holiday surge capacity. Was extremely lucrative, so they invested more in it. Maybe in the first years there was a loss there. They didn't start separating the numbers until 2012, and in 2015 their margins were ~25% on AWS [1]. So sure they are spending billions, but they are not spending more than they make on AWS. Perhaps Alexa / Echo are not directly profitable as a device, but they make money from people buying stuff on Amazon.com with it, and gain that brand loyalty from it. Which has definite value. But there are estimates it costs somewhere around ~$30 to produce one [2]. So at ~$60, its very profitable. And when they sell them for $30 for a special or something, its still in the break even area. A couple sales and you are in the black. [1] https://www.wired.com/2015/10/get-used-to-amazon-being-a-profitable-company/ https://www.wired.com/2015/10/get-used-to-amazon-being-a-pro... [2] https://voicebot.ai/2018/02/15/apple-homepod-costs-216-manufacture/ https://voicebot.ai/2018/02/15/apple-homepod-costs-216-manuf...

dalbasal 6y ago

AWS is not a loss leader. It's very profitable. $16.3bn in the last 12 months for AMZN as a whole. Most (if not >100%) of the profit is from AWS. https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/AMZN/financials https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/AMZN/financials

Reason077 6y ago

> ”Supposedly Amazon has operated things like AWS at a loss for long periods of time” The article is implying that devices like the Echo are loss-leaders which drive profits elsewhere at Amazon. As stated in the article, AWS made $11.3 billion profit on $48 billion revenue in the last fiscal year. AWS has been profitable since 2015, and is now the majority of Amazon’s profits.

mola 6y ago

If people are willing to install amazon microphone in their home. Why can't we call them amazon microphones? Why does amazon try to hide that under a meaningless word like "device"?

fastball 6y ago
I think it's a reasonable distinction. The Echo is much more than "a microphone". Yes, it has a microphone, and I don't think Amazon is trying to pretend it doesn't. But a smart speaker is obviously not just a passive listening device, as implied by "Amazon microphone".
- chris5745 6y ago
  When will the truth be palatable? When we normalize it. By calling the device an Amazon microphone, we are telling the truth that this device is a listening device, not just a speaker. This name has less sugar coating, so if it is still too bitter, just call it what you want.
  - recrudesce 6y ago
    By that logic, your phone should be called a "microphone". Ignore all the additional stuff it can do, it has a microphone, therefore it's OBVIOUSLY a passive listening device, ergo "microphone" /s
    - Xelbair 6y ago
      Well it is quite more. It also tracks your position via satellites.
nulbyte 6y ago
I don't think they are, and Amazon might not think so either. I think people would be less willing to install these devices if they were more often called Amazon microphones.
rapnie 6y ago

jonathanlydall 6y ago

> My guess - 50%+ of even CAR buyers want to have a connection to their brand loyal assistant. For me it's that I don't want to be beholden to the car manufacturers schedule of updates or choice of features. The only thing that really dated on my previous car and tempted me to look at buying a new one was things like lack of bluetooth audio and no big screen for maps. As an example, it tends to cost extra (at least it did historically) for maps in cars, I've also heard of having to pay annual fees for updates to those maps and even when the maps are "upto date", their information is still not as good as say Google Maps on your phone. So you land up with these expensive luxury cars, with huge infotainment screens, and then people still using a smart phone with its little screen on the side with its maps app simply because it's substantially more usable than what the car provides. Additionally, each car manafacturer has their own version of media players and capabilities all with varying amount of features. They all insist on figuratively re-inventing the wheel, and landing up with one which is still way worse than my rapidly evolving phone and its apps. Car infotainment systems these days should be little more than a largely dumb interface to my smart phone so that for the 10-20 years I own the car, I get regular updates on its utility as my smart phone and its apps improve.

patrickk 6y ago
> Car infotainment systems these days should be little more than a largely dumb interface to my smart phone so that for the 10-20 years I own the car, I get regular updates on its utility as my smart phone and its apps improve. That doesn't align with car makers incentives and business plans. Right now, all the talk is about mobility services (which don't make a profit for anyone currently) and chasing Tesla. They need something to replace spare parts and servicing, which is where all the profit is. With COVID, the EU commission fines on CO2, and the beginnings of EVs taking over (=spare parts and servicing will be reduced to almost nothing), they need a future profit generator. Except that doesn't line up with what consumers want.
- alistairSH 6y ago
  That doesn't align with car makers incentives If does if lack of CapPlay/Android Auto prevents sales. I won't buy a car that doesn't have them. I don't want to install more apps just for my car. I don't want to learn new systems when the native integration works just fine. I certainly don't want to pay for updated navigation when I get it "free" from Apple or Google. For a while, that meant no Toyota/Lexus (it appears they've since caved and have native phone integration).

me_me_me 6y ago

The only device I would allow in my house is a module that translate language. Locally within the unit. So that it can be bundled with my controller that would make use of the translation/parsed voice command. I do not trust Amazon/Google/CorpXYZ with running a microphone in my house.

jmnicolas 6y ago
Yet if you have a smartphone you trust the manufacturer with running a microphone everywhere you go.
- vetinari 6y ago
  Try putting a lav mic into your pocket or bag, and then listen how much non-muffled audio you get and how much you can understand from it. Phones are in similar position. Assistant devices are not, they are usually in a fixed location with a unobstructed way to the environment.
  - jmnicolas 6y ago
    I agree but to be fair my phone spends a lot of time laying on a table near me.
  - bacondude3 6y ago
    Placing your phone in your pocket to record audio discreetly works great, unless you're moving a lot. When you're sitting or standing still, the audio is almost perfectly clear.
  - kube-system 6y ago
    It is worth noting that human voice is not the only audio you might want to collect from an open mic. Ultrasonic beacons are not uncommon.
- me_me_me 6y ago
  By that logic I can only live in Faraday's cage or not complain at all?? You can complain about banking system and be proponent of bitcoin while having a bank account and paying for goods with fiat currency.

1vuio0pswjnm7 6y ago

All it takes is one major "trust incident" and accompanying press coverage to destroy "brand loyalty". There are still too many folks who see these for what they are: remotely-controlled microphones. That is why Amazon is asking for the wording of the article to be changed. Otherwise why would they care, if the manifest destiny you describe is true. More likely, no one can be sure yet whose normative behaviour will prevail: those welcoming the microphones or those rejecting them. It is what it is: an internet-connected computer with the mic always on. Eventually the Jetsons novelty wears off. Imagine every product with an embedded computer connecting to the internet without any user intervention and having a built-in mic always listening, purporting to be "voice-operated". One can only speculate as to what sort of incident would threaten brand loyalty; no one knows. All we know is there is some history of opposition to mass surveillance.

pgrote 6y ago
>All it takes is one major "trust incident" and accompanying press coverage to destroy "brand loyalty". What event could meet that rise to that level that already hasn't happened?

Xelbair 6y ago

While their end goal is pretty clear(brand loyalty, profiling).. i doubt that it will come to pass with our current tech. Lets face it - IT professionals do not trust such systems, nor use them - they are inferior to any type of input mode at the moment. Most normal people do not care about them, nor use them. There is vocal but relatively niche group of tech enthusiasts who are really into it, but they are already a brand loyalists. On a side note - the whole concept of brand loyalty is completely idiotic from consumer PoV. There is no merit for the customer in it.

sokoloff 6y ago
My kitchen Alexa has an excellent user interface for kitchen timers and casual music listening IMO.
- Spivak 6y ago
  For me the killer app for voice assistants is in the kitchen 100%. Being able to juggle a bunch of timers, control the AC and fans, dictate to multiple lists, play music, control the TV, and respond to texts while my hands are covered in food is easily worth the like $40 the thing cost. I'm not super impressed with any of the assistants "smart" features but in terms of being able to shout canned commands at it in a noisy environment it's top notch.
Timpy 6y ago
In this case "brand loyalty" is just the chrysalis of vendor lock. At first you use it because it's convenient, then the model changes and your digital ecosystem is held hostage. Microsoft did this with my generation and Office, Google is capturing the next generation with Docs and Chromebooks in every school. Amazon microphones endeavor to be brand-synonymous with smart homes of the future. The more they can integrate with your Amazon account, phone, tablet, Smart-TV, HVAC, security, grocery list, etc., the more "brand loyal" you will be.
Loughla 6y ago
>Most normal people do not care about them, nor use them. >There is vocal but relatively niche group of tech enthusiasts who are really into it, but they are already a brand loyalists. Are you serious? My 97 year old grandpa even asked me to set up an Alexa for him, so he could shout at her to check the weather. My most tech illiterate friends LOVE those devices, because they're so easy to use.

hacym 6y ago

Wasn't AWS the only profitable part of Amazon, and was propping up their retail section so they could spend money on customer acquisition? Pretty sure I remember reading about this strategy -- they basically used it as a way to make it possible to undercut competitors and do things like taking a loss on shipping without basically going broke.

josefx 6y ago
Yes and almost exactly what the article claims. Only it goes a step further to imply that Amazon is loosing money on other products to encourage AWS adoption. Not sure how the other comment interprets it as "AWS is loosing money".

kelnage 6y ago

> There is no way Amazon has echo / alexa out there just so it can develop a language recognition model. They could just record their customer service reps talking to customers, train it on the millions of movies and shows with subtitles on amazon prime or train using audio book narrations Training their recognition model on a range of pre-recorded, staged audio sources would likely result in it being very good at generating subtitles - but not much else. As for the telephone, again, it's relatively different (the customer reps will likely be using a script in some cases, and are going to be putting a lot of effort into being comprehensible). And neither would effectively simulate the situations (for example, a noisy family home) an Alexa will likely be used in.

indigochill 6y ago

Satya Nadella made a parallel observation that operating systems have moved off of particular hardware (e.g. running Windows 95 on your PC) and into more of a consistent interface for interacting with all the devices in our lives, thus Microsoft Office's transition to a cloud service (and his general push for Microsoft to become more serious about the cloud). Even though I don't care a bit about brand loyalty, I can definitely see the appeal of every device (PC, phone, car, TV, eReader, watch, whatever) all sharing the same abstract "operating system" interface, sharing your preferences, schedule, etc without the user having to even think about syncing this information. There's obviously a lot of appeal to a corporation to have this data as well, but even those of us who are opposed to the corporate abuse of data have to acknowledge this is the future. I'm optimistic that an open-source self-hosted solution can accomplish the same thing, but I'm not sure one actually exists yet.

einpoklum 6y ago
> Satya Nadella made a parallel observation that operating systems have moved off of particular hardware (e.g. running Windows 95 on your PC) and into more of a consistent interface for interacting with all the devices in our lives They haven't. But Microsoft (and perhaps Google?) would like for this to happen - with their kind of OS, user interface and cloud "services". > have to acknowledge this is the future. Well, absolutist monarchy used to be the future, in the middle ages. Never too early to get started on bringing the future after the future.
RandoHolmes 6y ago
> Even though I don't care a bit about brand loyalty, I can definitely see the appeal of every device (PC, phone, car, TV, eReader, watch, whatever) all sharing the same abstract "operating system" interface, sharing your preferences, schedule, etc without the user having to even think about syncing this information. Apple has been doing this for something like 10-20 years now.

jkinudsjknds 6y ago

> There is no way Amazon has echo / alexa out there just so it can develop a language recognition model. They could just record their customer service reps talking to customers, train it on the millions of movies and shows with subtitles on amazon prime or train using audio book narrations. And the profits from their transcription service are not likely very high relative to other services they offer. They might reasonably believe that a generic language model isn't as useful as one specifically trained to handle customer requests. They do have an army of people manually listening to the requests and responses and labeling them as good or bad.

Spivak 6y ago

> EVERY salesperson emphasizes that their cars supports "apple" carplay etc. This is a completely different market and there are different motivations for people being so loyal to Android Auto and CarPlay. They're the first infotainment interfaces that do what they should have done from the beginning, just be a nice porcelain / glorified screen to my phone.

photonemitter 6y ago

This reminded me; People seem way too comfortable / in the dark when it comes to voice-cloning, which, with the added data of general speech-patterns, is likely to become a major issue wrt political/legal issues. see: https://github.com/CorentinJ/Real-Time-Voice-Cloning https://github.com/CorentinJ/Real-Time-Voice-Cloning (think it made its rounds here on HN before) Conceptually, even though it currently is a market-strategy where the benefits are as you point out. In the longer term this could be argued as an uncomfortable seat of power to whoever sits on the user-data. (without bringing up too much of that issue here... might be time to generate obfuscation of voice similarly to the obfuscation of google-searching which I've seen on here earlier=)

brian_herman__ 6y ago

On your point where you said "Supposedly Amazon has operated things like AWS at a loss for long periods of time" I agree AWS hasn't been losing money for a long time. https://www.businessinsider.com/amazon-earnings-aws-amazon-web-services-10-billion-quarterly-revenue-2020-4 https://www.businessinsider.com/amazon-earnings-aws-amazon-w... https://www.forbes.com/sites/petercohan/2020/01/06/how-much-of-amazons-73-billion-aws-profit-will-rivals-win/#4206fb735bcd https://www.forbes.com/sites/petercohan/2020/01/06/how-much-... edit:Formatting

at-fates-hands 6y ago

> If I could get a space already pre-integrated with home automation etc? Very appealing. And normal people do call these things echo devices or alexa. I've spoken with several architects and builders who are telling me more people want a "smart house" when they buy/design/build their next house. Builders are now creating model homes with nearly everything connected (alexa, nest, home apps, etc) and leaving some options open to their buyers. This is very much something that is already here.

ska 6y ago

> My guess - 50%+ of even CAR buyers want to have a connection to their brand loyal assistant. I don't think this is what drives it. Most car companies are just bad at (software) interface and inconsistent between makes and models; carplay etc. has the dual improvement of a) isolating you from these changes somewhat and b) usually giving a better UX

sorokod 6y ago

A child growing up in a "amazon echo / alexa integrated house may become a lifelong brand consumer including when they buy their house and setup their home automation etc." Yes, and etc. What a distopian vision, they should make a Black Mirror episode based on this, or perhaps they already did. Edit: there is an interview with Charlie Brooker where he says that ideas that are not good enough for the series they sell to Samsung.