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ProtonDrive Security Model
- lxe 6y agoI'm guessing the password is tacked onto the URL as a fragment, which browsers do not send to the server. But this means that it relies on the trust that browsers follow this requirement.
- natcombs 6y agoIt looks like you are correct, but only if you let them generate the password. If you define your own password, then you would have to share it via another channel- >> While the Proton server will know the URL, it will never receive the password. >> When creating a new shareable URL for a file, the web client will first confirm that a share directing to the file exists. The passphrase of this share must then be encrypted with the new password associated with the URL. This new password is either randomly generated by the ProtonDrive client, or is specified by the user. >> In the case of randomly generated passwords, the user can choose whether they want to include it at the end of the URL, equivalent to sharing the content publicly. This section of the URL isn’t shared with Proton servers, making the password and the content inaccessible to Proton. Alternatively, the user can choose to share the password separately. >> In the case of user-defined passwords, this option isn’t available and the password must always be communicated separately.
- imhoguy 6y agoIt is exactly same as mega.nz does now. Unfortunatelly it is prone to leak of full URL by malcious or buggy browser extensions. And does anyone know what is sent with Chrome URL check?
- MisterKent 6y ago>model prevents any attacker who gains access to one of our servers from... If an attacker gains access to your server, they can just inject javascript to gain access to whatever they want on the client's browser. I'm a big fan of Proton* products, and pay for a variety of their services. However, I can't really get behind this method of data storage. But, it is the best option I've seen for centralized file storage. Syncthing is what I currently use for distributed storage, and I share encrypted files over that. Anyone have a better idea?
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- noodlesUK 6y agoKeybase has KBFS, which is incredibly well thought through, but sadly their acquisition by zoom spells bad things for the platform...
- 627467 6y agoI'm already suffering withdrawal even with no shutdown announcement by keybase. There just isn't anything as easy and comprehensive out there. I don't use all keybase features actively (wallet, looking at you) but the small use I make of everything else warrants me saying I wished they had a paying tier before they sold themselves.
- ffpip 6y ago> If an attacker gains access to your server, they can just inject javascript to gain access to whatever they want on the client's browser. That's a little complicated right and out of the threat model of normal users no? They mean to say if someone hacks into server and just copies the data, they will just have random nonsense. For the javascript thing to work, you need to login after the server is compromised. And if they haven't realised their server is compromised by then, you shouldn't use them.
- codezero 6y agoA few things: I think the "average" proton user is super technical and cares about this thing, or they wouldn't use it in the first place. The threat model is likely law enforcement - they can "compromise" a server legally and restrict owners from notifying people, and have done so many times in the past.
- dleslie 6y agoHow many people are going to be using data storage through a web browser and not as a phone app or desktop background service?
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- vertis 6y agoI tried really hard to move to protonmail and detach from a Google ecosystem, but really struggled to import my existing emails (their import/export tool was incredibly prone to breaking). You're also locking yourself into an ecosystem without open apis. If you want mail on your phone you have to use their client, if you want it on the computer you need to install the protonmail bridge (which seems to restart itself and overlay over the top of whatever you're doing) The apps don't seem to behave well on MacOS either, something about how the windows are designed means that they won't show up in the Mac cmd+tab switcher. All this means that their security model is irrelevant to me, if I can't do the basic things that I need to do.
- dleslie 6y agoThe ProtonMail app is open source: https://github.com/ProtonMail/proton-mail-android https://github.com/ProtonMail/proton-mail-android As is the bridge, and others. I moved over ~6gb of emails without issue. I set up the bridge and transferred everything from Google to ProtonMail.
- dgellow 6y agoI don’t have that much emails and faced lots of issues with the import tool, moving from a gmail account. After more than 10 attempts and 3-4 exchange with their support I still have a few emails that haven’t been imported successfully. Other than that I’m a happy user. But I think that they should invest more in the bridge and importer/exporter tool, the user experience really isn’t that great.
- dleslie 6y agoCould be a matter of the client I use. I use Outlook; what are you using?
- lowwave 6y agoyes, very interested in the emails you can't import. I don't work for ProtonMail btw, just have quite bit of experience with smtp and email. Just curious from a tech perspective what kind of email you are having trouble importing.
- johnnyfaehell 6y agoFor me the key feature(s) I want that Proton doesn't have is the docs and spreadsheets. If you're already on Google Suites/apps it's hard to move over without those.
- chromedev 6y agoIf you want secure email on Google you can always use GPG with IMAP or Mailvelope. Additionally, for Drive storage you can use rclone with a crypt overlay.
- johnnyfaehell 6y agoIt's more I don't want to use Google than I want secure email or secure services.
- chromedev 6y agoIt's a much better value than ProtonMail
- johnnyballgame 6y agoUse something like Fastmail. Perfect middle ground.
- aladine 6y agoAnother vote for Fastmail.
- protonmail 6y agoThis is actually the next step for ProtonDrive in the future.
- chromedev 6y agoI simply can't get around Proton's pricing model. A lot of services already work with rclone, which has a crypt backend on top that encrypts everything stored in the cloud. With ProtonMail's current Visionary plan, you get 40GB of storage for $30/mo and with ProtonDrive it looks like you'd get maybe 140GB of storage for $30/mo. G Suite is $12/mo and you get unlimited storage. If you're worried about security, you'd simply use GPG on top of IMAP or Mailvelope.
- manjana 6y agoThe issue people have with Google is privacy - Google have pretty good security I think.
- bradam 6y agoWould your mother understand the "simply use GPG on top of IMAP or Mailvelope" part? These E2EE products are not for the tech savy users, who are willing to go to the extra mile.
- chromedev 6y agoGpg4win and Mailvelope are very easy for the average user.
- barrister 6y agoThe problem I have with ProtonMail or ProtonVPN is that they rely upon Neustar to handle all of their perimeter security, meaning that every single client that accesses their services will be inspected by Neustar, which IMO defeats the purpose. At the moment, I don't trust Neustar, and presume they're a US military contractor (located in Virginia).
- guerby 6y agoprotonmail states they're using Neustar for DDoS protection of their network: https://protonmail.com/support/knowledge-base/email-ddos-protection/ https://protonmail.com/support/knowledge-base/email-ddos-pro... Very few players have the capacity by themselve to handle a large DDoS these days. And I'm not sure when talking about protonmail kind of encryption that Neustar has any special access to keys relative to say Level3, cogent or any transit provider between you and protonmail. But may be I misunderstood your comment?
- barrister 6y agoNot as long as it's understood that I feel Neustar was a poor choice given their line of business.
- imwillofficial 6y agoOr, they are a great choice. Defense contractors have unique defensive insight, and if properly fire-walled off from their other lines of business, can be of a net benefit. I worked for a British defense contractor, as an American working with the U.S. DoD. We were careful to dot our I's and cross our T's, but over all it worked well.
- XMPPwocky 6y agoWould you say the same thing if it was, say, a Chinese defense contractor?
- 6y ago
- Yc4win 6y agoI would _never_ trust anything *proton. They hide behind Swiss law but will cave to any serious American request for info.
- dgellow 6y agoWhat is your threat model?
- KarimDaghari 6y agoPrivacy. /s
- Yc4win 6y agoAnything and everything. I'm serious.
- johnnyballgame 6y agoYou probably shouldn't be posting on HN.
- deathgrips 6y agoYou should probably go hide in your safe room just in case there is a squad of Spetsnaz driving to your location to fake your death.
- manjana 6y agoWhat do you trust, then? You must put your trust some place I suppose?
- waynesonfire 6y agouh huh, still waiting for that calendar.
- hiimtroymclure 6y agoagreed on calendar. Overall I really enjoy protonmail
- dillon 6y agoFrom what I read they weren't setup to host multiple apps and needed a somewhat large refactor to do that. The calendar on beta.protonmail.com is probably what will be released to production. The only thing to smooth over, from my understanding, is the fact that they did a lot of refactoring to become multi-app. Disclaimer: My understanding could be wrong.
- protonmail 6y agoIt is already available in Beta at beta.protonmail.com. We're looking to also put out the mobile apps around the end of this year or beginning of next year.
- tomohawk 6y agoSince the drive can be used to store and share docs related to sensitive topics such as covid, will this prevent it from being used in the Apple store unless they put filters into the app?
- deathgrips 6y agoProtonmail should probably establish an Oversight Board to decide when to delete controversial files.
- or-gate 6y agoWhat? Why should I even trust them vs Google/other big corp?
- hendersoon 6y agoThe killer feature here isn't end-to-end encryption, other services offer that and you can trivially roll your own with rclone, but the flexibility to share files on your filestore with other users without compromising that E2E encryption. I haven't seen anyone else offering that in a usable manner. Pretty neat stuff. I hope they open-source it so I can self-host.
- bradam 6y agoThere is a few end-to-end encrypted storage providers[0][1], where you can share your files externally with other users without breaking the encryption for a long time. Disclaimer: I work for the second one. [0]: Sync.com [1]: Tresorit.com
- imwillofficial 6y agoI went in hard with email security a year or so ago. In the end I decided it was a broken system if security is the goal. I signed up for Hey and have really been enjoying it. I keep any secure comms on more secure platforms like Signal or Telegram.
- icelancer 6y agoYeah this is what I settled on as well. I still use GMail and PGP for those very few who are willing to go the extra route (like 2 people I know), but use it unencrypted 99.9999% of the time, and secure comms go out over Signal.
- triyambakam 6y agoBut PGP doesn't offer forward encryption, does it?
- soziawa 6y agoTelegram shouldn't be considered secure due to the lack of e2e encryption by default.
- theshrike79 6y agoBecause 99% of people will choose the option with better UX instead of E2E. I can grab any device (laptop, phone, tablet) and continue my group chats in Telegram. E2E would require me to use only one device for that specific chat, which is makes it really hard to explain to a layperson.
- dchest 6y agoNope, there are plenty of chats with e2ee and all the conveniences you’re mentioned.
- dgellow 6y agoDo you have examples? A chat application that has E2E and also let you carry your conversations between devices, that doesn't require you to pass through your mobile the way WhatsApp do it?
- DevBih 6y agoNever really had issues with Bridge and have been a professional subscriber for about 8 months. I got the subscription mainly to use my ProtonMail email address with Thunderbird instead of mail client on MacOS. I don’t agree with the “LAZY” way around getting a basic app install on Mac and p.c. Either way, I’m still a satisfied customer and haven’t had any issues with my emails and transfers.
- Vaslo 6y agoI agree here. Literally never have issues with having separate phone app or bridge on PC. Most of these complaints are the typical over engineering stuff that gets built into things and takes up time and resources and less than 1% care about.
- everdrive 6y agoI like protonmail a lot, and I'm a happy paying customer. But, I'm a bit sad they're rolling this out instead of improving their mail product. I don't want a google drive replacement. I suspect other users probably do. But, I don't think people should generally be storing files in the cloud. And, I with Protonmail were finally finishing support for FIDO2 authentication rather than rolling out a cloud storage solution.
- known 6y agoIf password is reset, protonmail says I will lose all my mails; Is it rational ?
- thefrozenone 6y agoI recently reset my password; providing the old password any time you remember it allows you to decrypt old emails (in the case of Proton, your password is the AES decryption password for your PGP RSA key [0]). [0] https://protonmail.com/docs/business-whitepaper.pdf https://protonmail.com/docs/business-whitepaper.pdf