4 ms·

Ridiculous thing to say. I am a small government person, and I believe taxation is theft. However, I am a realist and so I recognize that taxes are part of our

Ridiculous thing to say. I am a small government person, and I believe taxation is theft. However, I am a realist and so I recognize that taxes are part of our reality. I am 100% in favor of the IRS making it as easy as possible for people to do their taxes, because they already have 99% of the info needed.

Octoth0rpe 6y ago
> I believe taxation is theft > However, I am a realist Choose one.
- jaywalk 6y ago
  I have no idea how you see those two things as mutually exclusive.
  - Ericson2314 6y ago
    If taxation is theft, so are the vast majority of jobs.
    - jaywalk 6y ago
      I have a choice of jobs, including working for myself. I have no choice in paying taxes.
      - ardy42 6y ago
        > I have a choice of jobs, including working for myself. I have no choice in paying taxes. You totally do have choice to not pay your taxes, just like you have a choice to not pay your rent or mortgage or renege on other kinds of private contracts. The making those choices may lead to outcomes that aren't good for you, but it doesn't mean you have no choice.
      - Ericson2314 6y ago
        You can move to a place with no income tax. Now, you might argue that is impractical, but so getting a non-shit job for many people. I happen to think the government should impose taxes, and tax evasion is a moral failing, but I also recognized people were born into a contract with the government, and I'm not going to argue that's fair.
- syshum 6y ago
  The fact is that the government, like a thief, says to a man: Your money, or your life. And many, if not most, taxes are paid under the compulsion of that threat. The government does not, indeed, waylay a man in a lonely place, spring upon him from the road side, and, holding a pistol to his head, proceed to rifle his pockets. But the robbery is none the less a robbery on that account; and it is far more dastardly and shameful. --Lysander Spooner
  - krapp 6y ago
    > The fact is that the government, like a thief, says to a man: Your money, or your life. And many, if not most, taxes are paid under the compulsion of that threat. Yes, but I like civil society, infrastructure, paved roads and what little social safety net we have in this country, so...
    - jaywalk 6y ago
      So you see taxes as necessary. That's fine. It doesn't invalidate the point being made.
      - krapp 6y ago
        But are taxes really theft if I'm willing to pay them and I'm getting something of value back in return? Maybe it's extortionate, but the entire premise of government and the social contract is extortionate to a degree.
    - syshum 6y ago
      Ahh yes, the running joke of "But who will pave the roads", this has be debunked so many times it is now a meme in libertarian circles yet people still bring it up anyone some mentions that income based taxation is theft. Sad reality is most private roads are better maintained than the public roads which driving to my home everyday is like a obstacle course. Then there is the fact the vast majority of Roads (in the US) are paid for not with Income taxes but with User Fee's such as Gas Taxes, Car Registration, Wheel Taxes, Tire Fee's, Sales Taxes on Cars, and many other sources But hey let keep up with the narrative that with out income taxes we would all be driving on mud paths
kevin_thibedeau 6y ago
> I believe taxation is theft Then please stop using the things we fund with them. Roads, GPS, etc.
- jaywalk 6y ago
  I'm funding them too, so no.
scott_s 6y ago
You may think it's a ridiculous thing to say, and I also think it's a ridiculous thing to say. But Grover Norquist uses this exact line of reasoning when arguing against the IRS pre-populating taxes - and Grover Norquist has enormous influence on what policy positions many Republicans take regarding taxes. edit: transcript from an NPR interview where Norquist takes this position: https://www.npr.org/transcripts/521132960 https://www.npr.org/transcripts/521132960
ardy42 6y ago
> and I believe taxation is theft Money, taxes, and the crime of theft are all creatures of the law. Taxes aren't theft because that would be a literal contradiction. Taxes are just part of the rules about how money operates. I should also note that 1) the law isn't just what some individual or other feels is natural, 2) I'd imagine that primitive law that defines theft also defines obligations to the community (which are analogous to taxes).
karlp 6y ago
What's the point of your belief if you know it can't happen?

Octoth0rpe 6y ago

> I believe taxation is theft > However, I am a realist Choose one.

jaywalk 6y ago
I have no idea how you see those two things as mutually exclusive.
- Ericson2314 6y ago
  If taxation is theft, so are the vast majority of jobs.
  - jaywalk 6y ago
    I have a choice of jobs, including working for myself. I have no choice in paying taxes.
    - ardy42 6y ago
      > I have a choice of jobs, including working for myself. I have no choice in paying taxes. You totally do have choice to not pay your taxes, just like you have a choice to not pay your rent or mortgage or renege on other kinds of private contracts. The making those choices may lead to outcomes that aren't good for you, but it doesn't mean you have no choice.
    - Ericson2314 6y ago
      You can move to a place with no income tax. Now, you might argue that is impractical, but so getting a non-shit job for many people. I happen to think the government should impose taxes, and tax evasion is a moral failing, but I also recognized people were born into a contract with the government, and I'm not going to argue that's fair.
syshum 6y ago
The fact is that the government, like a thief, says to a man: Your money, or your life. And many, if not most, taxes are paid under the compulsion of that threat. The government does not, indeed, waylay a man in a lonely place, spring upon him from the road side, and, holding a pistol to his head, proceed to rifle his pockets. But the robbery is none the less a robbery on that account; and it is far more dastardly and shameful. --Lysander Spooner
- krapp 6y ago
  > The fact is that the government, like a thief, says to a man: Your money, or your life. And many, if not most, taxes are paid under the compulsion of that threat. Yes, but I like civil society, infrastructure, paved roads and what little social safety net we have in this country, so...
  - jaywalk 6y ago
    So you see taxes as necessary. That's fine. It doesn't invalidate the point being made.
    - krapp 6y ago
      But are taxes really theft if I'm willing to pay them and I'm getting something of value back in return? Maybe it's extortionate, but the entire premise of government and the social contract is extortionate to a degree.
  - syshum 6y ago
    Ahh yes, the running joke of "But who will pave the roads", this has be debunked so many times it is now a meme in libertarian circles yet people still bring it up anyone some mentions that income based taxation is theft. Sad reality is most private roads are better maintained than the public roads which driving to my home everyday is like a obstacle course. Then there is the fact the vast majority of Roads (in the US) are paid for not with Income taxes but with User Fee's such as Gas Taxes, Car Registration, Wheel Taxes, Tire Fee's, Sales Taxes on Cars, and many other sources But hey let keep up with the narrative that with out income taxes we would all be driving on mud paths

kevin_thibedeau 6y ago

> I believe taxation is theft Then please stop using the things we fund with them. Roads, GPS, etc.

jaywalk 6y ago
I'm funding them too, so no.

scott_s 6y ago

You may think it's a ridiculous thing to say, and I also think it's a ridiculous thing to say. But Grover Norquist uses this exact line of reasoning when arguing against the IRS pre-populating taxes - and Grover Norquist has enormous influence on what policy positions many Republicans take regarding taxes. edit: transcript from an NPR interview where Norquist takes this position: https://www.npr.org/transcripts/521132960 https://www.npr.org/transcripts/521132960

ardy42 6y ago

> and I believe taxation is theft Money, taxes, and the crime of theft are all creatures of the law. Taxes aren't theft because that would be a literal contradiction. Taxes are just part of the rules about how money operates. I should also note that 1) the law isn't just what some individual or other feels is natural, 2) I'd imagine that primitive law that defines theft also defines obligations to the community (which are analogous to taxes).

karlp 6y ago

What's the point of your belief if you know it can't happen?