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Not sure I understand the hate for TurboTax. Literally not a single person is forced to use it. I do use it and it's a very good product for the most part. Per

Not sure I understand the hate for TurboTax. Literally not a single person is forced to use it. I do use it and it's a very good product for the most part. Perhaps energy should be directed at the actual tax code complexity rather than software built to help navigate filing. Ted Cruz's tax plan would have practically eliminated the need for TurboTax-type software. https://taxfoundation.org/details-and-analysis-senator-ted-cruz-s-tax-plan/ https://taxfoundation.org/details-and-analysis-senator-ted-c... But, let's not forget what Milton Friedman had to say about tax reform: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TruCIPy79w8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TruCIPy79w8

tekknolagi 6y ago
People hate TurboTax because Intuit spends obscene amounts of money lobbying to keep the tax code complicated so they have a market.
- masklinn 6y ago
  They also spend obscene amounts of money killing online filing being provided by either state or fed. They spent more than 1.2 million in direct lobbying against California's online tax preparation & declaration system pilot (ReadyReturn) between 2001 and 2010.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
save_ferris 6y ago
> Perhaps energy should be directed at the actual tax code complexity rather than software built to help navigate filing. It's hard to tackle the complexity of the tax code when the company you're defending here has spent millions to keep it complex and out of the hands of the government.[0] The "tax complexity" argument is a red herring when talking about tax prep. The US government could absolutely offer free tax filing services to taxpayers without the help of private industry and also without needing to simplify the tax code. I'm not saying that the complexity of the tax code isn't a problem, but it's out of scope here. The idea that the complexity of the US tax code standing in the way of better filing options for taxpayers has absolutely no merit when companies are spending millions to fight legislation that gives the government the ability to offer its own tax prep software. This is rent-seeking behavior on the part of private industry, plain and simple. 0: https://www.propublica.org/article/filing-taxes-could-be-free-simple-hr-block-intuit-lobbying-against-it https://www.propublica.org/article/filing-taxes-could-be-fre...
- StillBored 6y ago
  And just to add to this, the IRS software could be significantly easier to use than the commercial offerings. That is because they could pre-populate much of the W2/1099/stock sales/etc data since its all being reported to the IRS from other organizations. For the vast majority of people it could be as simple as logging into a web site and clicking "no" to a bunch of questions like "did you have more than 20k of medical bills last year", and then "I accept" at the bottom where it prints your final tax. As I understand it, that is how some other countries handle their taxes..
  - syshum 6y ago
    >>>And just to add to this, the IRS software could be significantly easier to use than the commercial offerings. Someone has never worked in government contracting or developing Software from Government Committee a IRS Tax Software would look more than the universally hated Unemployment Systems, or the government healthcare markets Not a easy to use streamline system If you want something to be inefficient, have the government do it
    - colejohnson66 6y ago
      Here’s the thing though: the IRS already has all the information they need for a majority of the population. Why does everyone need to fill out forms themselves only for the government a few years later to say you did it wrong?
      - toomuchtodo 6y ago
        Because some people are irrationally biased against government providing services or collecting taxes in general. These are ingrained belief systems being challenged.
        jaywalk 6y ago
        Ridiculous thing to say. I am a small government person, and I believe taxation is theft. However, I am a realist and so I recognize that taxes are part of our reality. I am 100% in favor of the IRS making it as easy as possible for people to do their taxes, because they already have 99% of the info needed.
save_ferris 6y ago
Even better, the think tank attached to the article you linked to has an article explicitly rejecting the idea of pre-filled tax returns for taxpayers.[0] So how exactly does Ted's plan to simplify the tax code have anything to do with filing in the first place if the organization you're backing up your argument with doesn't even support doing away with private tax prep? You think the tax code is gonna be simplified to the point that Intuit just lays down and says "welp, no more money to be made here, the market solved itself out of a revenue stream"? 0: https://taxfoundation.org/pre-filled-forms-solution-tax-compliance-costs/ https://taxfoundation.org/pre-filled-forms-solution-tax-comp...
fyz 6y ago
2017 story on how Intuit killed the ReadyReturn program for pre-calculated returns for California. https://priceonomics.com/the-stanford-professor-who-fought-the-tax-lobby/ https://priceonomics.com/the-stanford-professor-who-fought-t... https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2017/03/22/521132960/episode-760-tax-hero https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2017/03/22/521132960/epis...
shados 6y ago
There would be no problem with TurboTax if it was a product that solved a real problem. If the complexity of the tax code and the process to file your taxes were 100% a problem created by the federal government and the states. It works pretty well, it's not too expensive, it has free options, not what's to like? It isn't like that though. The IRS has nearly all the pieces it needs, if not all the pieces, to create a system like the UK, where they just send you your return and you sign it unless you think there's a mistake. But that system doesn't exist because of companies like Intuit who lobby hard to prevent it from existing. In essence, Turbotax is solving a problem that Intuit is creating (or at least lobby to prevent anyone from fixing it).
- jeffbee 6y ago
  > The IRS has nearly all the pieces it needs Some things would need to change to make this statement true. Stock brokers and portfolio managers would have to be forced to stop reporting gains without basis. Without the basis the IRS has no idea what your gains were.
  - scott_s 6y ago
    Only about half of Americans have any investment in the stock market - and yes, that includes 401ks. That means more than half the population can file taxes without information from brokers or portfolio managers, which means not having that information is not a good reason to not do this.
    - jeffbee 6y ago
      For people with simple tax returns, aren't they already using the 1040 EZ? Doesn't seem like you'd use TurboTax unless you were itemizing or had a Sched. D to fill out.
      - scott_s 6y ago
        For many years, I filled out a 1040 EZ, and I used TurboTax to do it. For me, it wasn't about ease of filling out my taxes, as they were trivial. It was about ease of filing my taxes, as it was all online and I didn't have to physically mail anything. So, yes, such people are already using the simplest possible form, but ease of filing is a big deal, and I suspect many people are like me and use online filing software for that just as much as ease of filling out the forms.
syshum 6y ago
I 100% agree, to bad all you will get in response to your comment is how it is evil companies that prevent the noble and universally good government from helping the people. Unfortunately very few people seem to understand that government, intrinsically, is inefficient and bad at everything it does. This can not be avoided or changed it is the natural state of a monopoly. They seem to be able to recognize that when a large corporation that has become monopoly that is bad for people, however they fail to recognize that government is the worst kind of monopoly as unlike a corporation, they have the legal authority to put you in a cage if you refuse them, and kill you if you resit the governments attempt to put you in that cage.
- save_ferris 6y ago
  > Unfortunately very few people seem to understand that government, intrinsically, is inefficient and bad at everything it does. This is a laughably false statement. It's easy to find stories of government projects that came in ahead of schedule and under budget, but you have to look for them because those stories don't get nearly as much attention as the inverse. Take the Hoover Dam, for example. That was one of the most ambitious infrastructure projects in American history, and came in years ahead of schedule, and millions under budget.[0] Google around infrastructure publications and you'll find dozens more stories like this. To say that every thing a government does is bad is to fundamentally ignore reality, which is that no, not everything the government does is bad. You can never be taken seriously making sweeping generalizations like that. 0: https://www.marketplace.org/2010/05/28/why-we-might-not-have-built-hoover-dam-today/ https://www.marketplace.org/2010/05/28/why-we-might-not-have...
  - syshum 6y ago
    What is laughable if the fact you picked a make work jobs program like the Hover Damn to highlight government efficiency... The entire purpose of project was because the government needed to find something for thousands of unemployed men to do. It was literally the definition of "busy work" Further the budget was massively reduced because they did not have to concern themselves with minor things like environmental impact, or worker safety... I hope that is not your only shinning example of government as it is very much tarnished by the stain of blood
milofeynman 6y ago
The hate comes from anyone who understands intuit lobbying against the interest of the US taxpayer. Instead of the US government acting like every other 1st world government and giving us a pre-calculated tax bill since they already know what we owe we're forced to spend hours tracking down documents and hoping we didn't mess up and get audited. https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/14/opinion/filing-taxes-in-japan-is-a-breeze-why-not-here.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/14/opinion/filing-taxes-in-j...
- vonmoltke 6y ago
  > Instead of the US government acting like every other 1st world government and giving us a pre-calculated tax bill since they already know what we owe They don't know what a given taxpayer owes. They can estimate based on various filings, but there is some stuff that is only reported by the taxpayer when filing. That said, it isn't an excuse to push all the work onto the taxpayer when almost all of what a typical taxpayer needs to fill out could be pre-populated. > we're forced to spend hours tracking down documents and hoping we didn't mess up and get audited That the IRS audits taxpayers is evidence that it doesn't ever conclusively know what some people were supposed to pay in a given year, let alone by 15APR of the following year.
prepend 6y ago
In addition to the lobbying activities that, naturally, garner hate, I dislike them for just being a crappy marketing-driven company that is constantly trying to up sell. I’ve used them for about 20 years and every year it’s a hassle to find a reasonable price, figure out what they call the product I need each year. I spend as much time trying to figure out what to buy and clicking “no” as I do filing my taxes. This is as a customer that uses them once a year and that’s it. If they just sold a clean product, then it would be fine. But they are asshole marketing / rent seeking quite a bit. Lots of non-savvy friends buy the $200 version instead of the free or $50 version because of the way intuit markets within their product about buying audit protection and what not. It also infuriates me that their boxes software costs less than the web site. I think companies that sell physical copies of software for less than the website version are jerks. Obviously, they can do this, it’s legal, and people fall for it. But I would feel bad doing this and I think anyone who does this is a bad person. Therefore, I hate intuit and will switch in an instant when I can.
Izkata 6y ago
> Perhaps energy should be directed at the actual tax code complexity rather than software built to help navigate filing. Two years ago the paper form for standard federal 1040 was cut to about 1/4th its previous length. It's happening, just slowly. (Yes, I still use the paper forms yearly for both federal and state. I've never seen any software as necessary for filing taxes...)

tekknolagi 6y ago

People hate TurboTax because Intuit spends obscene amounts of money lobbying to keep the tax code complicated so they have a market.

masklinn 6y ago
They also spend obscene amounts of money killing online filing being provided by either state or fed. They spent more than 1.2 million in direct lobbying against California's online tax preparation & declaration system pilot (ReadyReturn) between 2001 and 2010.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

save_ferris 6y ago

> Perhaps energy should be directed at the actual tax code complexity rather than software built to help navigate filing. It's hard to tackle the complexity of the tax code when the company you're defending here has spent millions to keep it complex and out of the hands of the government.[0] The "tax complexity" argument is a red herring when talking about tax prep. The US government could absolutely offer free tax filing services to taxpayers without the help of private industry and also without needing to simplify the tax code. I'm not saying that the complexity of the tax code isn't a problem, but it's out of scope here. The idea that the complexity of the US tax code standing in the way of better filing options for taxpayers has absolutely no merit when companies are spending millions to fight legislation that gives the government the ability to offer its own tax prep software. This is rent-seeking behavior on the part of private industry, plain and simple. 0: https://www.propublica.org/article/filing-taxes-could-be-free-simple-hr-block-intuit-lobbying-against-it https://www.propublica.org/article/filing-taxes-could-be-fre...

StillBored 6y ago
And just to add to this, the IRS software could be significantly easier to use than the commercial offerings. That is because they could pre-populate much of the W2/1099/stock sales/etc data since its all being reported to the IRS from other organizations. For the vast majority of people it could be as simple as logging into a web site and clicking "no" to a bunch of questions like "did you have more than 20k of medical bills last year", and then "I accept" at the bottom where it prints your final tax. As I understand it, that is how some other countries handle their taxes..
- syshum 6y ago
  >>>And just to add to this, the IRS software could be significantly easier to use than the commercial offerings. Someone has never worked in government contracting or developing Software from Government Committee a IRS Tax Software would look more than the universally hated Unemployment Systems, or the government healthcare markets Not a easy to use streamline system If you want something to be inefficient, have the government do it
  - colejohnson66 6y ago
    Here’s the thing though: the IRS already has all the information they need for a majority of the population. Why does everyone need to fill out forms themselves only for the government a few years later to say you did it wrong?
    - toomuchtodo 6y ago
      Because some people are irrationally biased against government providing services or collecting taxes in general. These are ingrained belief systems being challenged.
      - jaywalk 6y ago
        Ridiculous thing to say. I am a small government person, and I believe taxation is theft. However, I am a realist and so I recognize that taxes are part of our reality. I am 100% in favor of the IRS making it as easy as possible for people to do their taxes, because they already have 99% of the info needed.

save_ferris 6y ago

Even better, the think tank attached to the article you linked to has an article explicitly rejecting the idea of pre-filled tax returns for taxpayers.[0] So how exactly does Ted's plan to simplify the tax code have anything to do with filing in the first place if the organization you're backing up your argument with doesn't even support doing away with private tax prep? You think the tax code is gonna be simplified to the point that Intuit just lays down and says "welp, no more money to be made here, the market solved itself out of a revenue stream"? 0: https://taxfoundation.org/pre-filled-forms-solution-tax-compliance-costs/ https://taxfoundation.org/pre-filled-forms-solution-tax-comp...

fyz 6y ago

2017 story on how Intuit killed the ReadyReturn program for pre-calculated returns for California. https://priceonomics.com/the-stanford-professor-who-fought-the-tax-lobby/ https://priceonomics.com/the-stanford-professor-who-fought-t... https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2017/03/22/521132960/episode-760-tax-hero https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2017/03/22/521132960/epis...

shados 6y ago

There would be no problem with TurboTax if it was a product that solved a real problem. If the complexity of the tax code and the process to file your taxes were 100% a problem created by the federal government and the states. It works pretty well, it's not too expensive, it has free options, not what's to like? It isn't like that though. The IRS has nearly all the pieces it needs, if not all the pieces, to create a system like the UK, where they just send you your return and you sign it unless you think there's a mistake. But that system doesn't exist because of companies like Intuit who lobby hard to prevent it from existing. In essence, Turbotax is solving a problem that Intuit is creating (or at least lobby to prevent anyone from fixing it).

jeffbee 6y ago
> The IRS has nearly all the pieces it needs Some things would need to change to make this statement true. Stock brokers and portfolio managers would have to be forced to stop reporting gains without basis. Without the basis the IRS has no idea what your gains were.
- scott_s 6y ago
  Only about half of Americans have any investment in the stock market - and yes, that includes 401ks. That means more than half the population can file taxes without information from brokers or portfolio managers, which means not having that information is not a good reason to not do this.
  - jeffbee 6y ago
    For people with simple tax returns, aren't they already using the 1040 EZ? Doesn't seem like you'd use TurboTax unless you were itemizing or had a Sched. D to fill out.
    - scott_s 6y ago
      For many years, I filled out a 1040 EZ, and I used TurboTax to do it. For me, it wasn't about ease of filling out my taxes, as they were trivial. It was about ease of filing my taxes, as it was all online and I didn't have to physically mail anything. So, yes, such people are already using the simplest possible form, but ease of filing is a big deal, and I suspect many people are like me and use online filing software for that just as much as ease of filling out the forms.

syshum 6y ago

I 100% agree, to bad all you will get in response to your comment is how it is evil companies that prevent the noble and universally good government from helping the people. Unfortunately very few people seem to understand that government, intrinsically, is inefficient and bad at everything it does. This can not be avoided or changed it is the natural state of a monopoly. They seem to be able to recognize that when a large corporation that has become monopoly that is bad for people, however they fail to recognize that government is the worst kind of monopoly as unlike a corporation, they have the legal authority to put you in a cage if you refuse them, and kill you if you resit the governments attempt to put you in that cage.

save_ferris 6y ago
> Unfortunately very few people seem to understand that government, intrinsically, is inefficient and bad at everything it does. This is a laughably false statement. It's easy to find stories of government projects that came in ahead of schedule and under budget, but you have to look for them because those stories don't get nearly as much attention as the inverse. Take the Hoover Dam, for example. That was one of the most ambitious infrastructure projects in American history, and came in years ahead of schedule, and millions under budget.[0] Google around infrastructure publications and you'll find dozens more stories like this. To say that every thing a government does is bad is to fundamentally ignore reality, which is that no, not everything the government does is bad. You can never be taken seriously making sweeping generalizations like that. 0: https://www.marketplace.org/2010/05/28/why-we-might-not-have-built-hoover-dam-today/ https://www.marketplace.org/2010/05/28/why-we-might-not-have...
- syshum 6y ago
  What is laughable if the fact you picked a make work jobs program like the Hover Damn to highlight government efficiency... The entire purpose of project was because the government needed to find something for thousands of unemployed men to do. It was literally the definition of "busy work" Further the budget was massively reduced because they did not have to concern themselves with minor things like environmental impact, or worker safety... I hope that is not your only shinning example of government as it is very much tarnished by the stain of blood

milofeynman 6y ago

The hate comes from anyone who understands intuit lobbying against the interest of the US taxpayer. Instead of the US government acting like every other 1st world government and giving us a pre-calculated tax bill since they already know what we owe we're forced to spend hours tracking down documents and hoping we didn't mess up and get audited. https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/14/opinion/filing-taxes-in-japan-is-a-breeze-why-not-here.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/14/opinion/filing-taxes-in-j...

vonmoltke 6y ago
> Instead of the US government acting like every other 1st world government and giving us a pre-calculated tax bill since they already know what we owe They don't know what a given taxpayer owes. They can estimate based on various filings, but there is some stuff that is only reported by the taxpayer when filing. That said, it isn't an excuse to push all the work onto the taxpayer when almost all of what a typical taxpayer needs to fill out could be pre-populated. > we're forced to spend hours tracking down documents and hoping we didn't mess up and get audited That the IRS audits taxpayers is evidence that it doesn't ever conclusively know what some people were supposed to pay in a given year, let alone by 15APR of the following year.

prepend 6y ago

In addition to the lobbying activities that, naturally, garner hate, I dislike them for just being a crappy marketing-driven company that is constantly trying to up sell. I’ve used them for about 20 years and every year it’s a hassle to find a reasonable price, figure out what they call the product I need each year. I spend as much time trying to figure out what to buy and clicking “no” as I do filing my taxes. This is as a customer that uses them once a year and that’s it. If they just sold a clean product, then it would be fine. But they are asshole marketing / rent seeking quite a bit. Lots of non-savvy friends buy the $200 version instead of the free or $50 version because of the way intuit markets within their product about buying audit protection and what not. It also infuriates me that their boxes software costs less than the web site. I think companies that sell physical copies of software for less than the website version are jerks. Obviously, they can do this, it’s legal, and people fall for it. But I would feel bad doing this and I think anyone who does this is a bad person. Therefore, I hate intuit and will switch in an instant when I can.

Izkata 6y ago

> Perhaps energy should be directed at the actual tax code complexity rather than software built to help navigate filing. Two years ago the paper form for standard federal 1040 was cut to about 1/4th its previous length. It's happening, just slowly. (Yes, I still use the paper forms yearly for both federal and state. I've never seen any software as necessary for filing taxes...)