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Nothing unusual and also applicable for other manufacturers and petrol cars. You loose warranty of course, but some people still opt for "chip" tuning right aft

Nothing unusual and also applicable for other manufacturers and petrol cars. You loose warranty of course, but some people still opt for "chip" tuning right after buying. Others might wait the 4 years.

readred 6y ago
Yep, sounds standard. If other companies could verify aftermarket hacks to void warranty, you can bet they would.
- raxxorrax 6y ago
  Oh, they do. I think a lot of smartphones do check if the bootloader was ever overwritten.
  - colejohnson66 6y ago
    Years ago (when the jailbreak scene was still a thing), I heard claims that Apple could detect if a device was jailbroken previously (and wiped/restored since), presumably to deny service claims on the basis of a voided warranty. However, there were also claims that “restoring your device removes all evidence”. I’m partial to the latter being true, but I’ve never seen any evidence of either.
    - joombaga 6y ago
      AirWatch (MDM software) detected my iPhone 6 as jailbroken after it was jailbroken then restored. They had to add my device to an exception list. That could've been an AirWatch bug though.
      - judge2020 6y ago
        Most likely a bug or some jailbreak system files lingering if you did a 'restore from backup' (iCloud or otherwise); nobody has demonstrated being able to detect a JB after doing a full restoring with iTunes and setting up as new.
        colejohnson66 6y ago
        Restoring from a backup absolutely leaves traces. The folders under /var/mobile/Library store configuration files for apps that are under /Applications[a]. As Cydia puts itself and other apps in here, it’s configuration files aren’t stored alongside them.[b] The consequence of this is that a backup backs up roughly the entire /var/mobile folder. So when a restore from backup is done, Cydia’s (and other apps’) config files are put back. In theory, Apple could detect this (previously jailbroken state) when they plug in your device at the store to do diagnostics, but (at least 5 years ago) I’ve brought a few “restored from backup” devices in for service and they don’t say anything. I guess as long as it isn’t currently jailbroken, they don’t care.[c] [a]: /Applications contains apps that come with the device and can’t be removed (such as Settings, etc.); Cydia installs itself and any apps you install through it into this folder. OTOH, apps installed through the App Store go under /var/mobile/Containers. [b]: The reason being: pre-jailbreak, / is mounted read-only, but /var/mobile is read-write. So iOS works on the assumption that any app installed to /Applications can’t keep its config files with it, so they’re put in /var/mobile/Library. [c]: Simply hiding the icons of Cydia and apps wouldn’t be enough to convince them as jailbreaking involves disabling a few daemons (the biggest is the OTA update checker; they don’t work well with a jailbroken device), so Apple’s diagnostics would probably show that some daemons aren’t running (that normally would be).
AmericanChopper 6y ago
Permanently disabling the stop/start is something I’ve done to the last two new cars I brought immediately after purchase. I imagine that’s a pretty popular warranty-jeopardising modification.
- hyperdimension 6y ago
  Are you talking about the engine automatically shutting off when you come to a stop and starting again when you take your foot off the brake pedal? I recently replaced my starter motor ('09 though, so I definitely don't have the feature,) so I'd be wary of that, but don't they fit longer-durability starter motors in those cars? Actually, come to think of it, (please correct me if I'm wrong) they probably keep the fuel pump primed while 'on' but at a stop, but I'd be concerned about the lack of oil at engine start. I always was told to turn the key to on, wait for the ~2 seconds for the fuel pump to prime and after you start the engine, and let it run a bit before starting to drive. My cynical side wants to think the start/stop is a planned obsolescence 'feature,' but obviously I don't really know for sure.
  - jaxx75 6y ago
    Yes, the starters are designed differently. Engine oil really isn't going to have enough time to leave bearing surfaces and the valve train in any significant way. First start of an engine after hours of sitting is where lack of oil is a concern. Priming the fuel pump is for short crank time and start reliability, not reducing engine wear.
    - hyperdimension 6y ago
      That's good to know. You learn so many things by rote; rarely, it seems, do you learn the reasons behind them all. Thanks.
  - userbinator 6y ago
    My cynical side wants to think the start/stop is a planned obsolescence 'feature,' but obviously I don't really know for sure. It's an attempt at squeezing the tiny last bit of fuel mileage out in the standardised tests, and they obviously don't care if it wears things out faster...
slipheen 6y ago
Under US federal law auto makers in particular aren't allowed to deny warranty coverage to a car due to aftermarket modifications unless they can prove that those specific modifications caused the problem. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnuson–Moss_Warranty_Act https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnuson–Moss_Warranty_Act
jaxx75 6y ago
The difference is that tuning an IC engine is pushing components into/past its designed safety/mechanical thresholds. Does 'tuning' a Tesla actually do this? If it is designed to perform at this level after paying Tesla, how could they deny warranty coverage with Magnuson-Moss in mind?
- potatochup 6y ago
  The biggest concern I have with black boxes like this is how its going to interact with updates. Presumably they are intercepting messages on the CAN bus. The CAN bus is fairly easy to crack if you know what you are doing, but it also could change with the software version. The black box has probably hardcoded the message IDs that they are intercepting, but if the messages get reshuffled around in a software update it'll be sending out some data for some random other message which could have safety implications.
- jayd16 6y ago
  Do they bin batteries and parts? Is the price based on a calculation of failure rates and warranty service costs? Or is it just a cash grab? I'm not sure.
- userbinator 6y ago
  The difference is that tuning an IC engine is pushing components into/past its designed safety/mechanical thresholds. It's not uncommon to find models with a wide range of power outputs but the exact same mechanical parts, and the only difference is the program in the ECU. Before electronics, the difference might be in a few small parts[1]. If you spend long enough staring at parts catalogs you can easily spot such things. [1] One of the examples that immediately comes to mind is with diesel engines --- you can change the fuel injectors to tune power over a very wide range, limited only by your acceptance of fuel consumption and emissions. All the load-bearing parts of the engine (block, rotating assembly, etc.) are exactly the same: http://forums.aths.org/Attachment20581.aspx http://forums.aths.org/Attachment20581.aspx
TheRealPomax 6y ago
And these days, the smart ones offer in-house ECU services, which is basically literally this: you pay more, to unlock mot performance. Or you do it outside the dealership's control and your warranty for whatever your mod changes (but not the warranty in general) is void for as long as you use your unofficial modifications.

readred 6y ago

Yep, sounds standard. If other companies could verify aftermarket hacks to void warranty, you can bet they would.

raxxorrax 6y ago
Oh, they do. I think a lot of smartphones do check if the bootloader was ever overwritten.
- colejohnson66 6y ago
  Years ago (when the jailbreak scene was still a thing), I heard claims that Apple could detect if a device was jailbroken previously (and wiped/restored since), presumably to deny service claims on the basis of a voided warranty. However, there were also claims that “restoring your device removes all evidence”. I’m partial to the latter being true, but I’ve never seen any evidence of either.
  - joombaga 6y ago
    AirWatch (MDM software) detected my iPhone 6 as jailbroken after it was jailbroken then restored. They had to add my device to an exception list. That could've been an AirWatch bug though.
    - judge2020 6y ago
      Most likely a bug or some jailbreak system files lingering if you did a 'restore from backup' (iCloud or otherwise); nobody has demonstrated being able to detect a JB after doing a full restoring with iTunes and setting up as new.
      - colejohnson66 6y ago
        Restoring from a backup absolutely leaves traces. The folders under /var/mobile/Library store configuration files for apps that are under /Applications[a]. As Cydia puts itself and other apps in here, it’s configuration files aren’t stored alongside them.[b] The consequence of this is that a backup backs up roughly the entire /var/mobile folder. So when a restore from backup is done, Cydia’s (and other apps’) config files are put back. In theory, Apple could detect this (previously jailbroken state) when they plug in your device at the store to do diagnostics, but (at least 5 years ago) I’ve brought a few “restored from backup” devices in for service and they don’t say anything. I guess as long as it isn’t currently jailbroken, they don’t care.[c] [a]: /Applications contains apps that come with the device and can’t be removed (such as Settings, etc.); Cydia installs itself and any apps you install through it into this folder. OTOH, apps installed through the App Store go under /var/mobile/Containers. [b]: The reason being: pre-jailbreak, / is mounted read-only, but /var/mobile is read-write. So iOS works on the assumption that any app installed to /Applications can’t keep its config files with it, so they’re put in /var/mobile/Library. [c]: Simply hiding the icons of Cydia and apps wouldn’t be enough to convince them as jailbreaking involves disabling a few daemons (the biggest is the OTA update checker; they don’t work well with a jailbroken device), so Apple’s diagnostics would probably show that some daemons aren’t running (that normally would be).

AmericanChopper 6y ago

Permanently disabling the stop/start is something I’ve done to the last two new cars I brought immediately after purchase. I imagine that’s a pretty popular warranty-jeopardising modification.

hyperdimension 6y ago
Are you talking about the engine automatically shutting off when you come to a stop and starting again when you take your foot off the brake pedal? I recently replaced my starter motor ('09 though, so I definitely don't have the feature,) so I'd be wary of that, but don't they fit longer-durability starter motors in those cars? Actually, come to think of it, (please correct me if I'm wrong) they probably keep the fuel pump primed while 'on' but at a stop, but I'd be concerned about the lack of oil at engine start. I always was told to turn the key to on, wait for the ~2 seconds for the fuel pump to prime and after you start the engine, and let it run a bit before starting to drive. My cynical side wants to think the start/stop is a planned obsolescence 'feature,' but obviously I don't really know for sure.
- jaxx75 6y ago
  Yes, the starters are designed differently. Engine oil really isn't going to have enough time to leave bearing surfaces and the valve train in any significant way. First start of an engine after hours of sitting is where lack of oil is a concern. Priming the fuel pump is for short crank time and start reliability, not reducing engine wear.
  - hyperdimension 6y ago
    That's good to know. You learn so many things by rote; rarely, it seems, do you learn the reasons behind them all. Thanks.
- userbinator 6y ago
  My cynical side wants to think the start/stop is a planned obsolescence 'feature,' but obviously I don't really know for sure. It's an attempt at squeezing the tiny last bit of fuel mileage out in the standardised tests, and they obviously don't care if it wears things out faster...

slipheen 6y ago

Under US federal law auto makers in particular aren't allowed to deny warranty coverage to a car due to aftermarket modifications unless they can prove that those specific modifications caused the problem. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnuson–Moss_Warranty_Act https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnuson–Moss_Warranty_Act

jaxx75 6y ago

The difference is that tuning an IC engine is pushing components into/past its designed safety/mechanical thresholds. Does 'tuning' a Tesla actually do this? If it is designed to perform at this level after paying Tesla, how could they deny warranty coverage with Magnuson-Moss in mind?

potatochup 6y ago
The biggest concern I have with black boxes like this is how its going to interact with updates. Presumably they are intercepting messages on the CAN bus. The CAN bus is fairly easy to crack if you know what you are doing, but it also could change with the software version. The black box has probably hardcoded the message IDs that they are intercepting, but if the messages get reshuffled around in a software update it'll be sending out some data for some random other message which could have safety implications.
jayd16 6y ago
Do they bin batteries and parts? Is the price based on a calculation of failure rates and warranty service costs? Or is it just a cash grab? I'm not sure.
userbinator 6y ago
The difference is that tuning an IC engine is pushing components into/past its designed safety/mechanical thresholds. It's not uncommon to find models with a wide range of power outputs but the exact same mechanical parts, and the only difference is the program in the ECU. Before electronics, the difference might be in a few small parts[1]. If you spend long enough staring at parts catalogs you can easily spot such things. [1] One of the examples that immediately comes to mind is with diesel engines --- you can change the fuel injectors to tune power over a very wide range, limited only by your acceptance of fuel consumption and emissions. All the load-bearing parts of the engine (block, rotating assembly, etc.) are exactly the same: http://forums.aths.org/Attachment20581.aspx http://forums.aths.org/Attachment20581.aspx

TheRealPomax 6y ago

And these days, the smart ones offer in-house ECU services, which is basically literally this: you pay more, to unlock mot performance. Or you do it outside the dealership's control and your warranty for whatever your mod changes (but not the warranty in general) is void for as long as you use your unofficial modifications.