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The Assange saga is clearly very polarising. Different people have extremely strong views on both sides. Trying hard to steer a neutral course in this comment,

The Assange saga is clearly very polarising. Different people have extremely strong views on both sides. Trying hard to steer a neutral course in this comment, there are a few things that stand out to me in and about this article, and the case: 1. The author is clearly on one of those sides 2. The author, along with like-minded others, want and expect the court hearings around the extradition to consider the case(s) in some detail. 3. The state and, I'd guess other individuals with different views to the author, want the court hearings to focus narrowly on the technical aspects of the extradition process itself. Personally I'm unconvinced by at least some of the arguments that the author puts forwards, and I would like to see further, more neutral reporting around the case. The partisanship of the author (whether justified or not) on at least some points makes it hard for me to have confidence in the rest of the post.

raxxorrax 6y ago
Which arguments convince you and which don't?
implements 6y ago
My understanding is that a journalist can receive and publish unlawfully obtained material, but they can’t incite or assist someone to obtain it. Does sufficient evidence exist that Assange broke US law? If so it would seem that he’s extraditable - and I’m not sure how the ‘bigger picture’ (‘Whistleblower’ public interest, ‘time served’ in the Embassy) overrides UK’s legal obligations here.
- dalbasal 6y ago
  >"* Does sufficient evidence exist that Assange broke US law*" I don't believe this is the full extent of extradition conditions.
- hutzlibu 6y ago
  "Does sufficient evidence exist that Assange broke US law?" It used to be, that you only can break a state law, if you are within that state. (with rare exceptions). That seems to be history.
  - type0 6y ago
    > It used to be, that you only can break a state law, if you are within that state. (with rare exceptions). US is that rare exception today, who knows, tomorrow it might be China. The chilling effect is enough to freeze your brains.
    - pieno 6y ago
      This reminds me of a huge diplomatic dispute between Belgium and the United States when a complaint was filed in Belgium against a US Army General for war crimes alleged to have been committed by US troops in Iraq. Belgium has long had a very broad international scope for its crimes against humanity criminal laws, requiring almost no connection with Belgium for such crimes to be punishable there. This law has for example been used in connection with the genocide in Rwanda, torture ordered by Pinochet in Chile, etc. Following diplomatic pressure by the US, the law was first amended to allow the Belgian Government to “refer” the case to another country that would be “more appropriate” to pursue the matter. This mechanism was put to work right away: the case at hand was referred to the US and nothing really came out of it thereafter. But this was not enough for the US: they further pressured (some say “bullied”) Belgium to abolish the international scope of their crimes against humanity laws altogether. The US threatened to use their diplomatic influence to move the NATO headquarters out of Belgium if they would not comply. Belgium complied and now only accepts jurisdiction if a victim is a Belgian citizen or has lived there for at least three years (and in cases where the suspect is a Belgian citizen/resident or the alleged crime took place in Belgium, obviously). The EU Observer has a pretty good short summary here: https://euobserver.com/justice/11820 https://euobserver.com/justice/11820
      - pjc50 6y ago
        The US is very particular in defending its right to commit war crimes, yes.
        monocasa 6y ago
        Yep. See also the "Hague Invasion Act". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Service-Members%27_Protection_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Service-Members%27_Pr...
- sneak 6y ago
  Free countries are morally obligated to prevent extradition to places where human beings will not receive a fair trial, or end up being tortured.
  - dane-pgp 6y ago
    If people don't believe the UN report that "Bradley Manning's treatment was cruel and inhuman"[0] then they should at least be aware of this: "He was also credited with serving 112 days of his sentence after Judge Lind ruled that he was improperly treated during his detainment at a facility in Quantico, Virginia."[1] [0] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/mar/12/bradley-manning-cruel-inhuman-treatment-un https://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/mar/12/bradley-mannin... [1] https://www.forbes.com/sites/andygreenberg/2013/08/21/sentenced-to-35-years-bradley-manning-faces-longest-ever-u-s-prison-term-for-leak-to-media/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/andygreenberg/2013/08/21/senten...
- severine 6y ago
  You can read a different take here: https://www.emptywheel.net/2020/09/07/the-us-government-formed-a-new-understanding-of-wikileaks-after-2016/ https://www.emptywheel.net/2020/09/07/the-us-government-form... (edited to remove editorializing)
  - DiogenesKynikos 6y ago
    That "nuanced take" takes some really outrageous positions, such as agreeing with Pompeo's description of WikiLeaks as a hostile, non-state intelligence agency. Intelligence agencies aren't in the business of publishing documents for the public. They're in the business of collecting documents for their own governments.
    - peu4000 6y ago
      Russia, almost certainly, used Wikileaks to dump hacked documents in order to influence the 2016 election. The CIA is also accused of hack and dump operations more recently -- welcome to the 21st century.
      - DiogenesKynikos 6y ago
        If what you're claiming is true, how is that even a problem? The documents were of interest to the public, so WikiLeaks was right to publish them. They showed that the DNC was trying to kneecap Bernie Sanders' campaign. Should WikiLeaks have helped cover that up? News influences elections. There's nothing wrong with that.
  - raxxorrax 6y ago
    It isn't a nuanced take at all. The supposed intelligence infrastructure targeting the US is not supported by evidence. Even mentioning Trump and hinting to alleged hypocrisy is pretty laughable and betray the author. > in addition, the allegations of involvement in Russia in all this are well-founded. The folks involved in the LulzSec chatrooms now incorporated into Assange’s CFAA charge acknowledge there were Russians there as well, though explain that the whole thing was so chaotic [...] Unsensible. We may find law and you can nail him on intricacies of it and extradite him, but I doubt it leads to justice for showing evidence of an illegal war of aggression. He basically just released info to the public. If that is a crime, the judiciary might be in deep trouble indeed.
- zaarn 6y ago
  That's not how extradition works. It doesn't matter to the court in this hearing if Assange did it or if there is good evidence. No extradition court cares if there is good evidence. The only thing they care about is A) is the crime a crime in both local and foreign law and B) will the extraditee receive a fair trial or is there an ulterior motive. Section B is what you will have to prove to the court if section A is true.
- jonathanstrange 6y ago
  His actions don't even fall under US jurisdiction. It's a farce, as is the potential punishment with which they threaten him. They (secretely) charged a non-US citizen who acted outside the US for alleged acts of espionage he committed outside the US, and now want to put him into solitary confinement and get him condemned by a some kangaroo court to 175 years in prison. All of that after having illegally spied on him and his lawyer within the embassy of another sovereign nation to find better angles to indict him. It's ridiculous that UK courts haven't dismissed this case right from the start.
  - DanBC 6y ago
    > It's ridiculous that UK courts haven't dismissed this case right from the start. That's not how courts work here.
    - jonathanstrange 6y ago
      Of course, they could dismiss the extradition request as being unfounded. That's definitely how courts work in the UK and they have all the power to do so. Even the government could block extradition, if they wanted to.
      - Cthulhu_ 6y ago
        "If they wanted to" being the key here; handing over Assange would give them a lot of goodwill and political credit, and with Brexit about to end badly when it comes to UK / Europe relationships, they're looking towards the US for trade deals. They're already pretty far along in selling / privatizing the NHS [1] and getting rid of European food standards so they can import the US' bleached chicken and eggs [2], etc. note: did not check if The Guardian is an unbiased source in this case. It's not owned by News Corp / Murdoch at least. [1] https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/dec/11/nhs-us-health-care-trade-deal-uk-election https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/dec/11/nhs-us... [2] https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/feb/25/why-chlorinated-chicken-is-centre-of-the-table-in-uk-eu-talks https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/feb/25/why-chlorin...
geekpowa 6y ago
The authors writing is quite moving, certainly moved me. But taking a step back, my read is that the author wants the allegations to be essentially tried in detail here and now. To what extent is this appropriate in such a hearing? Other link you shared is useful here. Still I have no real insight into what to ordinarily expect. More neutral reporting source would be valuable. From the article, Assange's very limited access to his legal team, of itself, seems appalling and very unfair on its face. Surely access is an easy thing to accommodate.
- goodcanadian 6y ago
  Basically, the point of an extradition hearing is to determine whether what he is charged with is a crime under both US and UK law. If yes, he can be extradited unless it can be shown that there is an ulterior motive in requesting the extradition or that he won't receive a fair trial. The actual trial would occur in the US, so at this point, there is very limited scope to argue the merits of the charges themselves. As for ulterior motives, it seems pretty clear to me that the motivation is political, but proving that is difficult. Likewise, proving that he won't get a fair trial in the U.S. will be an up hill battle even if I am somewhat skeptical, myself.
- Cthulhu_ 6y ago
  I think (personal opinion, not a lawyer, biased, etc) that it is very much appropriate to consider the allegations before extradition; the US is pissed off at him and it's probable he won't be getting a fair treatment, or he may even "disappear" entirely. Wouldn't be the first time, plenty of people branded "terrorist" have vanished off the face of the earth, or been incarcerated and tortured without fair trial in Guantanamo Bay.
- vidarh 6y ago
  Determing aspects such as whether or not the allegations actually amount to a crime both in the US and UK is a pre-requisite for justifying extradition, and as such essential.
vidarh 6y ago
Well, the UK press is demonstrating quite clearly it is not particularly interested in this case despite the repeatedly shocking behaviour of the judge. So you won't get much other reporting.

raxxorrax 6y ago

Which arguments convince you and which don't?

implements 6y ago

My understanding is that a journalist can receive and publish unlawfully obtained material, but they can’t incite or assist someone to obtain it. Does sufficient evidence exist that Assange broke US law? If so it would seem that he’s extraditable - and I’m not sure how the ‘bigger picture’ (‘Whistleblower’ public interest, ‘time served’ in the Embassy) overrides UK’s legal obligations here.

dalbasal 6y ago
>"* Does sufficient evidence exist that Assange broke US law*" I don't believe this is the full extent of extradition conditions.
hutzlibu 6y ago
"Does sufficient evidence exist that Assange broke US law?" It used to be, that you only can break a state law, if you are within that state. (with rare exceptions). That seems to be history.
- type0 6y ago
  > It used to be, that you only can break a state law, if you are within that state. (with rare exceptions). US is that rare exception today, who knows, tomorrow it might be China. The chilling effect is enough to freeze your brains.
  - pieno 6y ago
    This reminds me of a huge diplomatic dispute between Belgium and the United States when a complaint was filed in Belgium against a US Army General for war crimes alleged to have been committed by US troops in Iraq. Belgium has long had a very broad international scope for its crimes against humanity criminal laws, requiring almost no connection with Belgium for such crimes to be punishable there. This law has for example been used in connection with the genocide in Rwanda, torture ordered by Pinochet in Chile, etc. Following diplomatic pressure by the US, the law was first amended to allow the Belgian Government to “refer” the case to another country that would be “more appropriate” to pursue the matter. This mechanism was put to work right away: the case at hand was referred to the US and nothing really came out of it thereafter. But this was not enough for the US: they further pressured (some say “bullied”) Belgium to abolish the international scope of their crimes against humanity laws altogether. The US threatened to use their diplomatic influence to move the NATO headquarters out of Belgium if they would not comply. Belgium complied and now only accepts jurisdiction if a victim is a Belgian citizen or has lived there for at least three years (and in cases where the suspect is a Belgian citizen/resident or the alleged crime took place in Belgium, obviously). The EU Observer has a pretty good short summary here: https://euobserver.com/justice/11820 https://euobserver.com/justice/11820
    - pjc50 6y ago
      The US is very particular in defending its right to commit war crimes, yes.
      - monocasa 6y ago
        Yep. See also the "Hague Invasion Act". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Service-Members%27_Protection_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Service-Members%27_Pr...
sneak 6y ago
Free countries are morally obligated to prevent extradition to places where human beings will not receive a fair trial, or end up being tortured.
- dane-pgp 6y ago
  If people don't believe the UN report that "Bradley Manning's treatment was cruel and inhuman"[0] then they should at least be aware of this: "He was also credited with serving 112 days of his sentence after Judge Lind ruled that he was improperly treated during his detainment at a facility in Quantico, Virginia."[1] [0] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/mar/12/bradley-manning-cruel-inhuman-treatment-un https://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/mar/12/bradley-mannin... [1] https://www.forbes.com/sites/andygreenberg/2013/08/21/sentenced-to-35-years-bradley-manning-faces-longest-ever-u-s-prison-term-for-leak-to-media/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/andygreenberg/2013/08/21/senten...
severine 6y ago
You can read a different take here: https://www.emptywheel.net/2020/09/07/the-us-government-formed-a-new-understanding-of-wikileaks-after-2016/ https://www.emptywheel.net/2020/09/07/the-us-government-form... (edited to remove editorializing)
- DiogenesKynikos 6y ago
  That "nuanced take" takes some really outrageous positions, such as agreeing with Pompeo's description of WikiLeaks as a hostile, non-state intelligence agency. Intelligence agencies aren't in the business of publishing documents for the public. They're in the business of collecting documents for their own governments.
  - peu4000 6y ago
    Russia, almost certainly, used Wikileaks to dump hacked documents in order to influence the 2016 election. The CIA is also accused of hack and dump operations more recently -- welcome to the 21st century.
    - DiogenesKynikos 6y ago
      If what you're claiming is true, how is that even a problem? The documents were of interest to the public, so WikiLeaks was right to publish them. They showed that the DNC was trying to kneecap Bernie Sanders' campaign. Should WikiLeaks have helped cover that up? News influences elections. There's nothing wrong with that.
- raxxorrax 6y ago
  It isn't a nuanced take at all. The supposed intelligence infrastructure targeting the US is not supported by evidence. Even mentioning Trump and hinting to alleged hypocrisy is pretty laughable and betray the author. > in addition, the allegations of involvement in Russia in all this are well-founded. The folks involved in the LulzSec chatrooms now incorporated into Assange’s CFAA charge acknowledge there were Russians there as well, though explain that the whole thing was so chaotic [...] Unsensible. We may find law and you can nail him on intricacies of it and extradite him, but I doubt it leads to justice for showing evidence of an illegal war of aggression. He basically just released info to the public. If that is a crime, the judiciary might be in deep trouble indeed.
zaarn 6y ago
That's not how extradition works. It doesn't matter to the court in this hearing if Assange did it or if there is good evidence. No extradition court cares if there is good evidence. The only thing they care about is A) is the crime a crime in both local and foreign law and B) will the extraditee receive a fair trial or is there an ulterior motive. Section B is what you will have to prove to the court if section A is true.
jonathanstrange 6y ago
His actions don't even fall under US jurisdiction. It's a farce, as is the potential punishment with which they threaten him. They (secretely) charged a non-US citizen who acted outside the US for alleged acts of espionage he committed outside the US, and now want to put him into solitary confinement and get him condemned by a some kangaroo court to 175 years in prison. All of that after having illegally spied on him and his lawyer within the embassy of another sovereign nation to find better angles to indict him. It's ridiculous that UK courts haven't dismissed this case right from the start.
- DanBC 6y ago
  > It's ridiculous that UK courts haven't dismissed this case right from the start. That's not how courts work here.
  - jonathanstrange 6y ago
    Of course, they could dismiss the extradition request as being unfounded. That's definitely how courts work in the UK and they have all the power to do so. Even the government could block extradition, if they wanted to.
    - Cthulhu_ 6y ago
      "If they wanted to" being the key here; handing over Assange would give them a lot of goodwill and political credit, and with Brexit about to end badly when it comes to UK / Europe relationships, they're looking towards the US for trade deals. They're already pretty far along in selling / privatizing the NHS [1] and getting rid of European food standards so they can import the US' bleached chicken and eggs [2], etc. note: did not check if The Guardian is an unbiased source in this case. It's not owned by News Corp / Murdoch at least. [1] https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/dec/11/nhs-us-health-care-trade-deal-uk-election https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/dec/11/nhs-us... [2] https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/feb/25/why-chlorinated-chicken-is-centre-of-the-table-in-uk-eu-talks https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/feb/25/why-chlorin...

geekpowa 6y ago

The authors writing is quite moving, certainly moved me. But taking a step back, my read is that the author wants the allegations to be essentially tried in detail here and now. To what extent is this appropriate in such a hearing? Other link you shared is useful here. Still I have no real insight into what to ordinarily expect. More neutral reporting source would be valuable. From the article, Assange's very limited access to his legal team, of itself, seems appalling and very unfair on its face. Surely access is an easy thing to accommodate.

goodcanadian 6y ago
Basically, the point of an extradition hearing is to determine whether what he is charged with is a crime under both US and UK law. If yes, he can be extradited unless it can be shown that there is an ulterior motive in requesting the extradition or that he won't receive a fair trial. The actual trial would occur in the US, so at this point, there is very limited scope to argue the merits of the charges themselves. As for ulterior motives, it seems pretty clear to me that the motivation is political, but proving that is difficult. Likewise, proving that he won't get a fair trial in the U.S. will be an up hill battle even if I am somewhat skeptical, myself.
Cthulhu_ 6y ago
I think (personal opinion, not a lawyer, biased, etc) that it is very much appropriate to consider the allegations before extradition; the US is pissed off at him and it's probable he won't be getting a fair treatment, or he may even "disappear" entirely. Wouldn't be the first time, plenty of people branded "terrorist" have vanished off the face of the earth, or been incarcerated and tortured without fair trial in Guantanamo Bay.
vidarh 6y ago
Determing aspects such as whether or not the allegations actually amount to a crime both in the US and UK is a pre-requisite for justifying extradition, and as such essential.

vidarh 6y ago

Well, the UK press is demonstrating quite clearly it is not particularly interested in this case despite the repeatedly shocking behaviour of the judge. So you won't get much other reporting.