6 ms·

If right to repair takes off, it will make room for a Stack Exchange-like site dedicated to debugging and fixing hardware. That in turn will accelerate repair j

If right to repair takes off, it will make room for a Stack Exchange-like site dedicated to debugging and fixing hardware. That in turn will accelerate repair just like SO and github accelerate SW development.

TaylorAlexander 6y ago
This is also true if we convince more people to start open source hardware companies. I do strongly support right to repair to make illegal some of the most egregious things companies do, but I think that should exist alongside more open source hardware for the things we use in our daily lives.
- franga2000 6y ago
  Any open hardware like that would be extremely to "EEE" (Embrace, Extend, Extinguish). Just look at how Android (AOSP) went from a nice, open ecosystem, to a "technically still open source" pile of mandatory proprietary garbage (Gapps, Play Services, SafetyNet and whatever key attestation-based lock-in is coming next...). There's no way a small open hardware company can compete with industry giants that are backed by armies of patent lawyers and overseas child labor. This is simply not something capitalism is designed to sustain and therefore requires (admittedly tasteless) things like mandatory standardisation and certain user freedoms (to modify, repair, resell...). Sadly, this issue is not technical, but entirely political.
  - imtringued 6y ago
    That's true. Unless the user assembles the device himself there is no way for a small company dedicated to opensource to survive. Unfortunately I absolutely dislike assembling manufacturer provided kits. You can't really review a kit because any potential problems could be caused by incorrect assembly. Scummy manufacturers have an easier time to get away because they don't have to promise a final product. If you get stuck halfway because of bad instructions that's on you to figure out.
    - TaylorAlexander 6y ago
      I’m replying to everyone individually so I apologize for repeating myself, but wouldn’t Prusa 3D printers prove your point wrong? The company has grown quite a lot year over year. They acquired a company that designed SLA printers and open sourced it. They directly compete with clones. And then there’s all the open source software projects which survive despite zero sales revenue.
  - TaylorAlexander 6y ago
    Prusa 3D printers are open source and they are able to directly compete on the market with clones. In fact Josef Prusa is quite happy with the clones. And then there’s a wealth of examples in open source software on how the engineering can be sustained. Blender is a great example - they accept donations from industry and users and they pull in $2m a year. The raspberry pi foundation is supported by industry players and hardware sales. It seems to me there’s ways to make it work.
    - franga2000 6y ago
      All of the examples are things aimed at technically skilled users, which is a pattern you see very often with successful ope source projects. RasPi is obviously aimed at developers, Blender also covers the more techy part of the 3D world and 3D printing as a whole are a very "techy" hobby. We are willing to accept certain shortcomings (price, UX, stability...) in exchange for other things we value (openness, repairability, being able to hack on it...) - the average person doesn't care about any of the latter. Free software can at least win some people over on price, but hardware can't be free. I am yet to see a successful open hardware project aimed at the average consumer. System76 is as close as anyone and even they mostly target developers, with maybe Fairphone being second, but neither are even close to the market share of even the smallest of their competitors. To be clear: I love all of those projects, do what I can to support them and really hope they keep going, I just don't see them competing with industry giants any time soon - and maybe that's a good thing.
- imtringued 6y ago
  ODrive started as an opensource project. Then they started getting customers and knockoffs on Aliexpress appeared. They learned from that "mistake" and the latest version is now proprietary.
  - TaylorAlexander 6y ago
    Yep I use Odrive daily. The counter example is the Prusa 3D printer, which successfully competes with clones. Perhaps the complexity of assembly and resulting quality differences are more significant for 3D printers versus PCBs. Also Prusa has stated that he is quite proud of the clones. It seems that Odrive did not find success in the fully open source realm, but of course this is new territory. I’m trying to start an open source hardware project and we’re going to try to form a non profit and seek philanthropic donations to fund engineering. That’s how lots of open source software projects work.
rasz 6y ago
like https://www.eevblog.com/forum/repair/ https://www.eevblog.com/forum/repair/ or https://www.badcaps.net/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=28 https://www.badcaps.net/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=28 ? :)
- GrantZvolsky 6y ago
  Thanks for the links, I may find these communities useful in the future, but it isn't what I had in mind. Apart from a SE-like platform, I can imagine a site where repair engineers collaboratively build an akinator-like problem classification algorithm.
  - rasz 6y ago
    What you describe is called Please-Bro in repair circles. I dont want to learn, just tel me what to replace people. Afaik ZXW has something like that build in. No brain engaging required mode - shows you measuring points and list of possible defects.
    - GrantZvolsky 6y ago
      I would argue that it just makes learning easier. But that's not the point. The point is to make the repair process more efficient for everyone, including those sharing their knowledge.
      - rasz 6y ago
        Soldering is not like writing code, its literally welding metal. You cant take stackexchange copy pasting snippets until compiler stops throwing errors model and translate it into physical world. Pretty much never works out, typical example of an outcome: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/repair/lcd-monitor-has-rough-screen-with-ripples/msg2724686/#msg2724686 https://www.eevblog.com/forum/repair/lcd-monitor-has-rough-s... You end up with people unable/unwilling to understand what they are doing trying to solder things blindly for the first time. Its a bad car mechanic plugging in diagnostic computer and ordering $1000 of parts to swap because LCD screen said Error 45 and internet says "replace xxx bro" only to learn the fault didnt go away and he just stripped few bolts on the engine block in the process. You never learn anything by blindly following 'if x replace y' instructions, you learn by absorbing the 'what could happen if x, what caused x, what does that mean to the rest of the device' knowledge.

TaylorAlexander 6y ago

This is also true if we convince more people to start open source hardware companies. I do strongly support right to repair to make illegal some of the most egregious things companies do, but I think that should exist alongside more open source hardware for the things we use in our daily lives.

franga2000 6y ago
Any open hardware like that would be extremely to "EEE" (Embrace, Extend, Extinguish). Just look at how Android (AOSP) went from a nice, open ecosystem, to a "technically still open source" pile of mandatory proprietary garbage (Gapps, Play Services, SafetyNet and whatever key attestation-based lock-in is coming next...). There's no way a small open hardware company can compete with industry giants that are backed by armies of patent lawyers and overseas child labor. This is simply not something capitalism is designed to sustain and therefore requires (admittedly tasteless) things like mandatory standardisation and certain user freedoms (to modify, repair, resell...). Sadly, this issue is not technical, but entirely political.
- imtringued 6y ago
  That's true. Unless the user assembles the device himself there is no way for a small company dedicated to opensource to survive. Unfortunately I absolutely dislike assembling manufacturer provided kits. You can't really review a kit because any potential problems could be caused by incorrect assembly. Scummy manufacturers have an easier time to get away because they don't have to promise a final product. If you get stuck halfway because of bad instructions that's on you to figure out.
  - TaylorAlexander 6y ago
    I’m replying to everyone individually so I apologize for repeating myself, but wouldn’t Prusa 3D printers prove your point wrong? The company has grown quite a lot year over year. They acquired a company that designed SLA printers and open sourced it. They directly compete with clones. And then there’s all the open source software projects which survive despite zero sales revenue.
- TaylorAlexander 6y ago
  Prusa 3D printers are open source and they are able to directly compete on the market with clones. In fact Josef Prusa is quite happy with the clones. And then there’s a wealth of examples in open source software on how the engineering can be sustained. Blender is a great example - they accept donations from industry and users and they pull in $2m a year. The raspberry pi foundation is supported by industry players and hardware sales. It seems to me there’s ways to make it work.
  - franga2000 6y ago
    All of the examples are things aimed at technically skilled users, which is a pattern you see very often with successful ope source projects. RasPi is obviously aimed at developers, Blender also covers the more techy part of the 3D world and 3D printing as a whole are a very "techy" hobby. We are willing to accept certain shortcomings (price, UX, stability...) in exchange for other things we value (openness, repairability, being able to hack on it...) - the average person doesn't care about any of the latter. Free software can at least win some people over on price, but hardware can't be free. I am yet to see a successful open hardware project aimed at the average consumer. System76 is as close as anyone and even they mostly target developers, with maybe Fairphone being second, but neither are even close to the market share of even the smallest of their competitors. To be clear: I love all of those projects, do what I can to support them and really hope they keep going, I just don't see them competing with industry giants any time soon - and maybe that's a good thing.
imtringued 6y ago
ODrive started as an opensource project. Then they started getting customers and knockoffs on Aliexpress appeared. They learned from that "mistake" and the latest version is now proprietary.
- TaylorAlexander 6y ago
  Yep I use Odrive daily. The counter example is the Prusa 3D printer, which successfully competes with clones. Perhaps the complexity of assembly and resulting quality differences are more significant for 3D printers versus PCBs. Also Prusa has stated that he is quite proud of the clones. It seems that Odrive did not find success in the fully open source realm, but of course this is new territory. I’m trying to start an open source hardware project and we’re going to try to form a non profit and seek philanthropic donations to fund engineering. That’s how lots of open source software projects work.

rasz 6y ago

like https://www.eevblog.com/forum/repair/ https://www.eevblog.com/forum/repair/ or https://www.badcaps.net/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=28 https://www.badcaps.net/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=28 ? :)

GrantZvolsky 6y ago
Thanks for the links, I may find these communities useful in the future, but it isn't what I had in mind. Apart from a SE-like platform, I can imagine a site where repair engineers collaboratively build an akinator-like problem classification algorithm.
- rasz 6y ago
  What you describe is called Please-Bro in repair circles. I dont want to learn, just tel me what to replace people. Afaik ZXW has something like that build in. No brain engaging required mode - shows you measuring points and list of possible defects.
  - GrantZvolsky 6y ago
    I would argue that it just makes learning easier. But that's not the point. The point is to make the repair process more efficient for everyone, including those sharing their knowledge.
    - rasz 6y ago
      Soldering is not like writing code, its literally welding metal. You cant take stackexchange copy pasting snippets until compiler stops throwing errors model and translate it into physical world. Pretty much never works out, typical example of an outcome: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/repair/lcd-monitor-has-rough-screen-with-ripples/msg2724686/#msg2724686 https://www.eevblog.com/forum/repair/lcd-monitor-has-rough-s... You end up with people unable/unwilling to understand what they are doing trying to solder things blindly for the first time. Its a bad car mechanic plugging in diagnostic computer and ordering $1000 of parts to swap because LCD screen said Error 45 and internet says "replace xxx bro" only to learn the fault didnt go away and he just stripped few bolts on the engine block in the process. You never learn anything by blindly following 'if x replace y' instructions, you learn by absorbing the 'what could happen if x, what caused x, what does that mean to the rest of the device' knowledge.