5 ms·

> The right to repair won't help the school computer shortage. There aren't enough broken computers, nor enough people able to repair them, to make a difference

by franga2000 6y ago

> The right to repair won't help the school computer shortage. There aren't enough broken computers, nor enough people able to repair them, to make a difference. I don't know what you're basing your prediction on, but we've managed to provide computers to over half the students that didn't have one here in Slovenia since the pandemic started, by taking broken or outdated computers from companies and individuals that were going to throw them away, repairing them and putting a lightweight Linux on them. The only reason that was possible is that desktop PC parts are very well understood and available to everyone. On the other hand, we also have several shelves stacked with various brands of laptops and tablets that we get from people in hopes we can repair and donate them, but even with access to an electronics lab with serious equipment, we have not been able to repair a single one as the process for that is currently: 1. Inspect the board for obviously broken parts 2. Find the board number and search a bunch of fishy Russian and Polish sites for a schematic 3. Buy the schematic (illegal, btw) 4. Read through it to find the correct replacement components 5. If they aren't passive or something ubiquitous like a 555, you basically can't get them - cry 6. If there are non-obvious defects, spend a week studying the schematics to be able to start probing the board 7. If you find a bad part, goto 5., else cry The vast majority of laptop defects are small things that require very little effort to fix with decent equipment, but access to the knowledge and parts required is intentionally made difficult by the manufacturers. With access to both, more than half of the laptops on those shelves would be in the hands of students already.

rasz 6y ago
> spend a week studying the schematics to be able to start probing the board Sounds like you lack people with particular skills, no amount of documentation is going to solve that for you. I emailed you a present, feel free to ask for more detailed help if you need it.
- GrantZvolsky 6y ago
  If right to repair takes off, it will make room for a Stack Exchange-like site dedicated to debugging and fixing hardware. That in turn will accelerate repair just like SO and github accelerate SW development.
  - TaylorAlexander 6y ago
    This is also true if we convince more people to start open source hardware companies. I do strongly support right to repair to make illegal some of the most egregious things companies do, but I think that should exist alongside more open source hardware for the things we use in our daily lives.
    - franga2000 6y ago
      Any open hardware like that would be extremely to "EEE" (Embrace, Extend, Extinguish). Just look at how Android (AOSP) went from a nice, open ecosystem, to a "technically still open source" pile of mandatory proprietary garbage (Gapps, Play Services, SafetyNet and whatever key attestation-based lock-in is coming next...). There's no way a small open hardware company can compete with industry giants that are backed by armies of patent lawyers and overseas child labor. This is simply not something capitalism is designed to sustain and therefore requires (admittedly tasteless) things like mandatory standardisation and certain user freedoms (to modify, repair, resell...). Sadly, this issue is not technical, but entirely political.
      - imtringued 6y ago
        That's true. Unless the user assembles the device himself there is no way for a small company dedicated to opensource to survive. Unfortunately I absolutely dislike assembling manufacturer provided kits. You can't really review a kit because any potential problems could be caused by incorrect assembly. Scummy manufacturers have an easier time to get away because they don't have to promise a final product. If you get stuck halfway because of bad instructions that's on you to figure out.
        TaylorAlexander 6y ago
        I’m replying to everyone individually so I apologize for repeating myself, but wouldn’t Prusa 3D printers prove your point wrong? The company has grown quite a lot year over year. They acquired a company that designed SLA printers and open sourced it. They directly compete with clones. And then there’s all the open source software projects which survive despite zero sales revenue.
- franga2000 6y ago
  That is true, but it's even more a problem of experience, which is hard to get outside of a niche (like Louis Rossman woth Apple). I understand pretty much everything in a schematic and have replaced some passives and small ICs in the past, but as each schematic is formatted differently, with different amounts of Chinese and redaction, often in poorly-searchable pdf form, even finding the value of an obviously blown cap can take a fair amount of time. Being able to download a brd file straight from the manufacturer, along with a list of probe points and Mouser links for ICs would surely make it much easier. P.S.: thanks for the link, it'll certainly come in handy!
  - tekknik 6y ago
    > Being able to download a brd file straight from the manufacturer, along with a list of probe points and Mouser links for ICs would surely make it much easier. Don’t you think you’re asking for a bit much here? You’re asking for board layout in an easily digestible and copyable format. This is most definitely IP for the company and they should just give it away? This would be detrimental to the industry. Apple makes laptop, releases schematic, cheap chinese clones would be available within a few hours. I get that people want to repair their stuff, there’s nothing wrong with that, but when the path forward requires dismantling the entire IP protection system do we really want to push forward so Johnny Brokenwatch doesn’t have to buy a new Apple Watch?
    - franga2000 6y ago
      Apple brds are already available if you know where to look and Chinese clone manufacturers have serious connections, so this would've happened already if it were feasible.
      - tekknik 6y ago
        Not at all, it remains illegal which is why you don’t see it happening already.
        franga2000 6y ago

rasz 6y ago

> spend a week studying the schematics to be able to start probing the board Sounds like you lack people with particular skills, no amount of documentation is going to solve that for you. I emailed you a present, feel free to ask for more detailed help if you need it.

GrantZvolsky 6y ago
If right to repair takes off, it will make room for a Stack Exchange-like site dedicated to debugging and fixing hardware. That in turn will accelerate repair just like SO and github accelerate SW development.
- TaylorAlexander 6y ago
  This is also true if we convince more people to start open source hardware companies. I do strongly support right to repair to make illegal some of the most egregious things companies do, but I think that should exist alongside more open source hardware for the things we use in our daily lives.
  - franga2000 6y ago
    Any open hardware like that would be extremely to "EEE" (Embrace, Extend, Extinguish). Just look at how Android (AOSP) went from a nice, open ecosystem, to a "technically still open source" pile of mandatory proprietary garbage (Gapps, Play Services, SafetyNet and whatever key attestation-based lock-in is coming next...). There's no way a small open hardware company can compete with industry giants that are backed by armies of patent lawyers and overseas child labor. This is simply not something capitalism is designed to sustain and therefore requires (admittedly tasteless) things like mandatory standardisation and certain user freedoms (to modify, repair, resell...). Sadly, this issue is not technical, but entirely political.
    - imtringued 6y ago
      That's true. Unless the user assembles the device himself there is no way for a small company dedicated to opensource to survive. Unfortunately I absolutely dislike assembling manufacturer provided kits. You can't really review a kit because any potential problems could be caused by incorrect assembly. Scummy manufacturers have an easier time to get away because they don't have to promise a final product. If you get stuck halfway because of bad instructions that's on you to figure out.
      - TaylorAlexander 6y ago
        I’m replying to everyone individually so I apologize for repeating myself, but wouldn’t Prusa 3D printers prove your point wrong? The company has grown quite a lot year over year. They acquired a company that designed SLA printers and open sourced it. They directly compete with clones. And then there’s all the open source software projects which survive despite zero sales revenue.
franga2000 6y ago
That is true, but it's even more a problem of experience, which is hard to get outside of a niche (like Louis Rossman woth Apple). I understand pretty much everything in a schematic and have replaced some passives and small ICs in the past, but as each schematic is formatted differently, with different amounts of Chinese and redaction, often in poorly-searchable pdf form, even finding the value of an obviously blown cap can take a fair amount of time. Being able to download a brd file straight from the manufacturer, along with a list of probe points and Mouser links for ICs would surely make it much easier. P.S.: thanks for the link, it'll certainly come in handy!
- tekknik 6y ago
  > Being able to download a brd file straight from the manufacturer, along with a list of probe points and Mouser links for ICs would surely make it much easier. Don’t you think you’re asking for a bit much here? You’re asking for board layout in an easily digestible and copyable format. This is most definitely IP for the company and they should just give it away? This would be detrimental to the industry. Apple makes laptop, releases schematic, cheap chinese clones would be available within a few hours. I get that people want to repair their stuff, there’s nothing wrong with that, but when the path forward requires dismantling the entire IP protection system do we really want to push forward so Johnny Brokenwatch doesn’t have to buy a new Apple Watch?
  - franga2000 6y ago
    Apple brds are already available if you know where to look and Chinese clone manufacturers have serious connections, so this would've happened already if it were feasible.
    - tekknik 6y ago
      Not at all, it remains illegal which is why you don’t see it happening already.
      - franga2000 6y ago