8 ms·

“There’s no borders at all for IT engineers. They can find a job anywhere.” Uhm yeah, but they also have parents, siblings, girlfriends. Probably they might ha

by ozim 6y ago

“There’s no borders at all for IT engineers. They can find a job anywhere.” Uhm yeah, but they also have parents, siblings, girlfriends. Probably they might have some properties bought already. So as it may seem really advantageous to be in IT, one might not be able to move to another country just like that...

arez 6y ago
not all of them, but many engineers are willing to move if they don't have kids and can make it work
- ozim 6y ago
  If this BS going on will end up in couple of months they might be able to move back soon. If not, living somewhere abroad without close ones is going to hurt them in the long run. I moved out from my home country and in the place I live now people are nice, but I am never going to be one of them (so there are also not nice people, but it is easier to deal with not nice people from your own country). Some people have it even worse, because I can go back to my own country and have my friends from school and family quite close by. There are people who are children of migrants that are still treated on the streets like they are not part of that society even though they grew up in that country. It gets even worse for them when they go to visit their parents country because they look familiar to people but when they speak they use English or broken local language which makes them foreign there as well. In the end they are not welcome in the place they grew up, they are not welcome in the place where they fit in by looks. They don't have a place in the entire world they can go and feel like home.
  - morelisp 6y ago
    The term for this in English is "third-culture kid." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_culture_kid https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_culture_kid
  - joelbluminator 6y ago
    You have quite a negative view of immigration. It works well for many people (while for others it doesn't). Children are quite adaptable. The West is long ago not 100% white and it's only gonna become more pronounced the coming decades. It's mixed. Whites will become the minority in U.S and the UK in the coming decades. It's not that different in West Europe, Canada, Australia, etc. Overall it's a good trend for immigrants. Those children you describe may have a few rough episodes in their upbringing, but won't they have more rough episodes growing up in Belarus? Some proportion is needed.
    - throwaway5398 6y ago
      >Whites will become the minority in U.S and the UK in the coming decades. It's not that different in West Europe, Canada, Australia, etc. Overall it's a good trend for immigrants. 1. The US may become a white-minority country. Europe, not really. Whites are still the majority, and are going to remain so in the distant future. The "Great Replacement" isn't real. 2. Most immigrants to EU countries are from other countries within the EU and white themselves. 3. Many people from outside the EU, even though they're not considered "white" by Westerners, look white from the outside (think of e.g. Arabs) and the differences are purely cultural. Within a few generations you wouldn't be able to tell the difference between them and "white" people. 4. One's ability to integrate and be welcomed depends far more on cultural differences than "looking" different. This is why people from former colonies immigrate to the country that colonized them - lasting vestigial ties and a common language help far more than sticking to people who share one's skin color.
      - skissane 6y ago
        > 3. Many people from outside the EU, even though they're not considered "white" by Westerners, look white from the outside (think of e.g. Arabs) and the differences are purely cultural. Within a few generations you wouldn't be able to tell the difference between them and "white" people. The US government officially considers Arab people to be "white". [1] Some Arab Americans disagree with this and believe they are not "white", other Arab Americans identify with the "white" label and want to keep it. The former group have been lobbying the US government to create a separate category, e.g. "Middle Eastern and North African", thus far non-successfully. Unlike the US, I don't believe most EU countries have a formally adopted definition of "white" (the EU as a whole certainly doesn't.) But, just like in the US, it would be wrong to think there would be a single viewpoint. So the statement that Arab people are "not considered 'white' by Westerners" is a bit dubious – some Westerners no doubt think that, other Westerners actually do think Arab people are "white", yet other Westerners just don't think about the concept "white" or its definition that much at all, or think that "white" is an arbitrary category which should not be used [1] https://www.census.gov/topics/population/race/about.html https://www.census.gov/topics/population/race/about.html
  - pawelmurias 6y ago
    People in Belarous are white and their children can very easily blend in most places in the EU.
    - throwaway5398 6y ago
      As if one's ability to blend depended on one's skin color alone, and that wasn't trumped by culture and language.
      - bonoboTP 6y ago
        The next gen can blend in very easily, if they go to kindergarten and school there. They will grow up bilingual and only use the original language at home, and may not even pass on the language to the 3rd generation (because it's seen as a useless extra burden and the 3rd gen can talk to their grandparents - the 1st gen - in the new language). Happens all the time in Europe.
    - isbvhodnvemrwvn 6y ago
      That's an extremely american response. I guarantee you someone from Belarus would pretty much never be seen as a native Pole unless they spoke flawless Polish (no accent at all).
nomadrat 6y ago
And it's naive to say that there's no borders. You have to be qualified for the visa requirements. You also have to renew this visa every year or so. You have to start all over. Of course everything is possible with some effort and money, but i'm tired of seeing this term "no borders for it engineers".
- ozim 6y ago
  Agree, it is no borders for "digital nomads" from first world countries having nice passports. Take into account COVID-19 pandemic and it is not as easy to move somewhere just now.
  - sam_lowry_ 6y ago
    Neighboring Lithuania and Ukraine already eased visa regimes for Belarusians in hope to attrack highly skilled workers fleeing Lukashenka.
    - useyourforce 6y ago
      Yet Lithuania requires all of moving staff to apply for the Blue Card. Minority of programmers are eligible for it.
  - nomadrat 6y ago
    yeah i'm from Belarus, so i know everything about borders and also pandemic-related visiting troubles. currently in Vilnius on almost expired residence permit
- akira2501 6y ago
  Yea, whoever wrote that never heard of a "language barrier." IT is not some universal language.
  - sam_lowry_ 6y ago
    Language is not that much of a problem. They all speak Russian. Lithuania has a sizable minority of Russian speakers, and has historical ties to Belarus. Latvia is predominantly Russian-speaking. Ukraine as well. Knowing Belarusian, they can pick up Polish rather quickly. As a last resort, Russia is still freer than Belarus politically and better off economically. Smolensk is half an hour drive from the Belarusian border.
nathanvanfleet 6y ago
Yeah that is incredible. Minsk has been having the government shut down their internet and there are numerous other countries blocking people from contacting the outside world. Not to mention constraints around getting VISAs and also everything you are mentioning as well. There is a very real border around it. Even smaller issues would be language and time zone.
slezyr 6y ago
Not sure if he actually said this. There is no source and I can't find it in russian as well.
dheera 6y ago
> but they also have parents, siblings, girlfriends + boyfriends, romantic partners I agree with the motivation of your statement, just wanted to complete it to reduce the (likely unintentional on your part but implicit) hetero-male stereotype of software engineers.
- sam_lowry_ 6y ago
  Computer Programmers are almost all male in Belarus, but QA, Graphics Designers, Data Science, etc roles are very often female, which makes for a rather decent 70/30 gender distribution in headcount (2020 PVT numbers).
  - dheera 6y ago
    Sure, they may be almost all male now, but (a) there are still females and non-hetero people in the mix (b) I still think it is worth not propagating stereotypes in language. The first step toward positive change is to change the way people think about these roles, and remove the automatic mental picture of a hetero male when people say "software engineer". That feeds back into the hiring loop and worsens the problem. I have no intention to start a fuss, but I just think that it would be a nice gesture to make sure our language is as inclusive as possible, and so made a suggestion on a small change that would do that. (Also, I'm surprised at all the downvotes, I thought HN was a better crowd of people than that. I mean if you don't want to upvote it that's fine, but I'm really surprised that many people actively downvoted my comment. How would it hurt you for the language to be more inclusive? By downvoting it, did you want to maintain that we only mention "girlfriends"? By downvoting, you are part of the problem in tech today.)
    - imtringued 6y ago
      Honestly it's a matter of motivation and dedication. Boys like videos games so they end up using either consoles or computers a lot. Some of them want to make their own game and learn programming. Anyone who reads injustice into this doesn't understand anything about humans. People may think that career choice is something special and magical when it is not. Let's say you have become a successful developer. Now you want to work on a side project. There are so many choices and possibilities. Most of them are equally good. You choose something. Then you get stuck, bored or the rest of your life gets in the way. You scrap the old thing and do something new. Rinse and repeat. After 5 unfinished side projects you feel like you have accomplished nothing. The reality is that you didn't actually care about any of the side projects. If you cared about them you would have stuck with them until completion. Making a choice and staying with it is difficult at any stage in your life. Unless... it is extremely obvious and necessary. Suddenly there is no question about it. You you know very little about electronics but think you absolutely need to design a custom PCB for this important project and you're not going to compromise on this at all. You read up on electronics theory for 3 whole weeks without even thinking a single thought about your final design, pick some components and feel lost reading the datasheet. Start up your EDA suite get mad and feel like everything is hopeless the first few days. Two weeks later you have finally designed a good enough schematic and then suddenly everything is easy in hindsight. You didn't have the qualifications to finish this project but did so anyway, all you needed was a little motivation and dedication. If there is a need, it will be met. If you think someone should do X, then give them a reason to do X. This applies to "software engineers" and all other professions equally. The overlap between talented and motivated students exists for a reason. Talent is just motivation in disguise.
bergstromm466 6y ago
> Probably they might have some properties bought already. Are you talking about properties bought as investments?
baybal2 6y ago
> Uhm yeah, but they also have parents, siblings, girlfriends. Probably they might have some properties bought already. So as it may seem really advantageous to be in IT, one might not be able to move to another country just like that... > And it's naive to say that there's no borders. You have to be qualified for the visa requirements. You also have to renew this visa every year or so. You have to start all over. Of course everything is possible with some effort and money, but i'm tired of seeing this term "no borders for it engineers". 1. Qualification: 1.1 University degree, usually means a Western university degree, or a few top tier ones in your own country. Lots of people from the East choose Western education not because they think so highly of it, but because a Western degree contributes to their visa eligibility. 1.2 Even if you have a Western degree, your troubles don't end there. Eligibility criteria often cover the most trendy topics as usual, but may stumble at something dumb as a requirement for a verbatim match of the degree title: i.e. the most dumb on my memory was "Electronics Engineering" getting a pass, but "Microelectronics Engineering" not, while this very much being the originaly intended criteria. The inviting countries are obviously more than content with the amount of people they can cherry pick with the utmost capriciousness. 1.3 Your usual age, health, crime check, marriage status check, security check (telling them you are not a spy, and not alkayeda) 1.3.1 The last few former may involve waiting for completely idiotic paper on your side of your border. A fake crime check note costs 1000 roubles cash ($20) to get from every cop, but may take few months if you want to get it legally, especially if you are from a far away province. 1.3.1.1 A completely innocent note on the former, like being a witness in a court case, or a traffic ticket will subject you to months of pain, and if some countries 100% denial rate, after being flagged in every international rogue person database. 1.4 Regulatory capture works in immigration too. This is they way Microsoft handwrote much of non-public selection criteria for professional evaluation in BC, Canada to unfairly gain advantage attracting foreign labour who are using MS stack. 2. Life situations: 2.1 Lots of Western countries outright deny family applicants, some on other hand given huge bonus. 2.2 Lots of Western countries use immigration programs to repopulate their dying, depopulating regions. Canada will happily settle any amount of Chinese, Indians, and Africans if they agree to live somewhere in New Brunswick 2.3 Lots of Western countries will never allow you to settle down, or pretend to say they will, but then repeatedly change the goalpost in their immigration programs: Canada, Australia. 2.4 Lots of Western countries will outright deny applicants older than forties to mid thirties 2.5 Lots of Western countries will outright deny applicants who are women 2.6 Lots of Western countries will outright deny applicants who are women with children 2.7 Lots of Western countries will outright deny applicants who are women who are single 2.8 Lots of Western countries will outright deny applicants who are women who are not single 2.9 Lots of Western countries will outright deny applicants with just any health condition 3. Incentives: 3.1 Prime majority of countries don't want any more of their own people, let alone strangers. In such, immigration programs are ran as a token sign to say "hey, we are so International, we are not bigots at all!" 3.2 The minority of countries who are actively soliciting immigration are not much better, and some times worse. They obviously have their own agendas. Very often have an interest to crush their own labour into submission, or serve a political agenda. Less frequently, outright exploitation: Gulf, much of East Asia. 3.3 Incentives often are a carrot on a stick, with this stick being constantly moved forward: you a just 1 month away from a permanent residency, a month passes... wham! now qualify for 1 more year for something else 3.4 Countries providing incentives often do so, when their industries don't do well. You will be moving to a country with an already present oversupply of professionals after a downturn. Some times problems will be structural, i.e. Singapore (negative selection, where best leave, and create more openings for cheaper helloworld webdevs to move it.) 3.4 Accordingly, countries that already do well, rarely invite. 3.5 Wages today vary much in between top employers, not so much localities. Earning post tax $10k USD a month somewhere in China, India, or Vietnam is INCOMPARABLY better deal than in the West. 3.6 Accordingly, top companies in the West are no longer eager to employ foreigners in hopes to get top talent anymore. Why hire them for $10k in USA with its unions, labour rights, sjw storm, when you can hire the same guy in your captive outsourcing centre in every major 3rd world country? 3.7 Moving internationally is still freaking expensive, for a person with an already established life, a move from the depth of a third world country to USA can take anywhere up to $40k. This alone may be one years' profit of that man/woman. 3.8 Following 3.7, top tier professionals have much better odds of further progression at home. I knew like 10 guys in China who worked on $10k+ USD jobs in Googles, Amazons, and others who managed to start their business after a single year savings from such jobs. Now, try opening a business yourself as an immigrant abroad. 3.9 A lot of immigration programs outright state that you are being prohibited from running any enterprise. 3.10 A lot of immigration programs for higher calibre talents wanting to setup their businesses in the country are an outright robbery, like a requirement for 51% local capital, waving your patents to inviting research institution, or specifically waving some of your shareholder rights.

by ozim 6y ago

arez 6y ago

not all of them, but many engineers are willing to move if they don't have kids and can make it work

ozim 6y ago
If this BS going on will end up in couple of months they might be able to move back soon. If not, living somewhere abroad without close ones is going to hurt them in the long run. I moved out from my home country and in the place I live now people are nice, but I am never going to be one of them (so there are also not nice people, but it is easier to deal with not nice people from your own country). Some people have it even worse, because I can go back to my own country and have my friends from school and family quite close by. There are people who are children of migrants that are still treated on the streets like they are not part of that society even though they grew up in that country. It gets even worse for them when they go to visit their parents country because they look familiar to people but when they speak they use English or broken local language which makes them foreign there as well. In the end they are not welcome in the place they grew up, they are not welcome in the place where they fit in by looks. They don't have a place in the entire world they can go and feel like home.
- morelisp 6y ago
  The term for this in English is "third-culture kid." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_culture_kid https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_culture_kid
- joelbluminator 6y ago
  You have quite a negative view of immigration. It works well for many people (while for others it doesn't). Children are quite adaptable. The West is long ago not 100% white and it's only gonna become more pronounced the coming decades. It's mixed. Whites will become the minority in U.S and the UK in the coming decades. It's not that different in West Europe, Canada, Australia, etc. Overall it's a good trend for immigrants. Those children you describe may have a few rough episodes in their upbringing, but won't they have more rough episodes growing up in Belarus? Some proportion is needed.
  - throwaway5398 6y ago
    >Whites will become the minority in U.S and the UK in the coming decades. It's not that different in West Europe, Canada, Australia, etc. Overall it's a good trend for immigrants. 1. The US may become a white-minority country. Europe, not really. Whites are still the majority, and are going to remain so in the distant future. The "Great Replacement" isn't real. 2. Most immigrants to EU countries are from other countries within the EU and white themselves. 3. Many people from outside the EU, even though they're not considered "white" by Westerners, look white from the outside (think of e.g. Arabs) and the differences are purely cultural. Within a few generations you wouldn't be able to tell the difference between them and "white" people. 4. One's ability to integrate and be welcomed depends far more on cultural differences than "looking" different. This is why people from former colonies immigrate to the country that colonized them - lasting vestigial ties and a common language help far more than sticking to people who share one's skin color.
    - skissane 6y ago
      > 3. Many people from outside the EU, even though they're not considered "white" by Westerners, look white from the outside (think of e.g. Arabs) and the differences are purely cultural. Within a few generations you wouldn't be able to tell the difference between them and "white" people. The US government officially considers Arab people to be "white". [1] Some Arab Americans disagree with this and believe they are not "white", other Arab Americans identify with the "white" label and want to keep it. The former group have been lobbying the US government to create a separate category, e.g. "Middle Eastern and North African", thus far non-successfully. Unlike the US, I don't believe most EU countries have a formally adopted definition of "white" (the EU as a whole certainly doesn't.) But, just like in the US, it would be wrong to think there would be a single viewpoint. So the statement that Arab people are "not considered 'white' by Westerners" is a bit dubious – some Westerners no doubt think that, other Westerners actually do think Arab people are "white", yet other Westerners just don't think about the concept "white" or its definition that much at all, or think that "white" is an arbitrary category which should not be used [1] https://www.census.gov/topics/population/race/about.html https://www.census.gov/topics/population/race/about.html
- pawelmurias 6y ago
  People in Belarous are white and their children can very easily blend in most places in the EU.
  - throwaway5398 6y ago
    As if one's ability to blend depended on one's skin color alone, and that wasn't trumped by culture and language.
    - bonoboTP 6y ago
      The next gen can blend in very easily, if they go to kindergarten and school there. They will grow up bilingual and only use the original language at home, and may not even pass on the language to the 3rd generation (because it's seen as a useless extra burden and the 3rd gen can talk to their grandparents - the 1st gen - in the new language). Happens all the time in Europe.
  - isbvhodnvemrwvn 6y ago
    That's an extremely american response. I guarantee you someone from Belarus would pretty much never be seen as a native Pole unless they spoke flawless Polish (no accent at all).

nomadrat 6y ago

And it's naive to say that there's no borders. You have to be qualified for the visa requirements. You also have to renew this visa every year or so. You have to start all over. Of course everything is possible with some effort and money, but i'm tired of seeing this term "no borders for it engineers".

ozim 6y ago
Agree, it is no borders for "digital nomads" from first world countries having nice passports. Take into account COVID-19 pandemic and it is not as easy to move somewhere just now.
- sam_lowry_ 6y ago
  Neighboring Lithuania and Ukraine already eased visa regimes for Belarusians in hope to attrack highly skilled workers fleeing Lukashenka.
  - useyourforce 6y ago
    Yet Lithuania requires all of moving staff to apply for the Blue Card. Minority of programmers are eligible for it.
- nomadrat 6y ago
  yeah i'm from Belarus, so i know everything about borders and also pandemic-related visiting troubles. currently in Vilnius on almost expired residence permit
akira2501 6y ago
Yea, whoever wrote that never heard of a "language barrier." IT is not some universal language.
- sam_lowry_ 6y ago
  Language is not that much of a problem. They all speak Russian. Lithuania has a sizable minority of Russian speakers, and has historical ties to Belarus. Latvia is predominantly Russian-speaking. Ukraine as well. Knowing Belarusian, they can pick up Polish rather quickly. As a last resort, Russia is still freer than Belarus politically and better off economically. Smolensk is half an hour drive from the Belarusian border.

nathanvanfleet 6y ago

Yeah that is incredible. Minsk has been having the government shut down their internet and there are numerous other countries blocking people from contacting the outside world. Not to mention constraints around getting VISAs and also everything you are mentioning as well. There is a very real border around it. Even smaller issues would be language and time zone.

slezyr 6y ago

Not sure if he actually said this. There is no source and I can't find it in russian as well.

dheera 6y ago

> but they also have parents, siblings, girlfriends + boyfriends, romantic partners I agree with the motivation of your statement, just wanted to complete it to reduce the (likely unintentional on your part but implicit) hetero-male stereotype of software engineers.

sam_lowry_ 6y ago
Computer Programmers are almost all male in Belarus, but QA, Graphics Designers, Data Science, etc roles are very often female, which makes for a rather decent 70/30 gender distribution in headcount (2020 PVT numbers).
- dheera 6y ago
  Sure, they may be almost all male now, but (a) there are still females and non-hetero people in the mix (b) I still think it is worth not propagating stereotypes in language. The first step toward positive change is to change the way people think about these roles, and remove the automatic mental picture of a hetero male when people say "software engineer". That feeds back into the hiring loop and worsens the problem. I have no intention to start a fuss, but I just think that it would be a nice gesture to make sure our language is as inclusive as possible, and so made a suggestion on a small change that would do that. (Also, I'm surprised at all the downvotes, I thought HN was a better crowd of people than that. I mean if you don't want to upvote it that's fine, but I'm really surprised that many people actively downvoted my comment. How would it hurt you for the language to be more inclusive? By downvoting it, did you want to maintain that we only mention "girlfriends"? By downvoting, you are part of the problem in tech today.)
  - imtringued 6y ago
    Honestly it's a matter of motivation and dedication. Boys like videos games so they end up using either consoles or computers a lot. Some of them want to make their own game and learn programming. Anyone who reads injustice into this doesn't understand anything about humans. People may think that career choice is something special and magical when it is not. Let's say you have become a successful developer. Now you want to work on a side project. There are so many choices and possibilities. Most of them are equally good. You choose something. Then you get stuck, bored or the rest of your life gets in the way. You scrap the old thing and do something new. Rinse and repeat. After 5 unfinished side projects you feel like you have accomplished nothing. The reality is that you didn't actually care about any of the side projects. If you cared about them you would have stuck with them until completion. Making a choice and staying with it is difficult at any stage in your life. Unless... it is extremely obvious and necessary. Suddenly there is no question about it. You you know very little about electronics but think you absolutely need to design a custom PCB for this important project and you're not going to compromise on this at all. You read up on electronics theory for 3 whole weeks without even thinking a single thought about your final design, pick some components and feel lost reading the datasheet. Start up your EDA suite get mad and feel like everything is hopeless the first few days. Two weeks later you have finally designed a good enough schematic and then suddenly everything is easy in hindsight. You didn't have the qualifications to finish this project but did so anyway, all you needed was a little motivation and dedication. If there is a need, it will be met. If you think someone should do X, then give them a reason to do X. This applies to "software engineers" and all other professions equally. The overlap between talented and motivated students exists for a reason. Talent is just motivation in disguise.

bergstromm466 6y ago

> Probably they might have some properties bought already. Are you talking about properties bought as investments?

baybal2 6y ago

> Uhm yeah, but they also have parents, siblings, girlfriends. Probably they might have some properties bought already. So as it may seem really advantageous to be in IT, one might not be able to move to another country just like that... > And it's naive to say that there's no borders. You have to be qualified for the visa requirements. You also have to renew this visa every year or so. You have to start all over. Of course everything is possible with some effort and money, but i'm tired of seeing this term "no borders for it engineers". 1. Qualification: 1.1 University degree, usually means a Western university degree, or a few top tier ones in your own country. Lots of people from the East choose Western education not because they think so highly of it, but because a Western degree contributes to their visa eligibility. 1.2 Even if you have a Western degree, your troubles don't end there. Eligibility criteria often cover the most trendy topics as usual, but may stumble at something dumb as a requirement for a verbatim match of the degree title: i.e. the most dumb on my memory was "Electronics Engineering" getting a pass, but "Microelectronics Engineering" not, while this very much being the originaly intended criteria. The inviting countries are obviously more than content with the amount of people they can cherry pick with the utmost capriciousness. 1.3 Your usual age, health, crime check, marriage status check, security check (telling them you are not a spy, and not alkayeda) 1.3.1 The last few former may involve waiting for completely idiotic paper on your side of your border. A fake crime check note costs 1000 roubles cash ($20) to get from every cop, but may take few months if you want to get it legally, especially if you are from a far away province. 1.3.1.1 A completely innocent note on the former, like being a witness in a court case, or a traffic ticket will subject you to months of pain, and if some countries 100% denial rate, after being flagged in every international rogue person database. 1.4 Regulatory capture works in immigration too. This is they way Microsoft handwrote much of non-public selection criteria for professional evaluation in BC, Canada to unfairly gain advantage attracting foreign labour who are using MS stack. 2. Life situations: 2.1 Lots of Western countries outright deny family applicants, some on other hand given huge bonus. 2.2 Lots of Western countries use immigration programs to repopulate their dying, depopulating regions. Canada will happily settle any amount of Chinese, Indians, and Africans if they agree to live somewhere in New Brunswick 2.3 Lots of Western countries will never allow you to settle down, or pretend to say they will, but then repeatedly change the goalpost in their immigration programs: Canada, Australia. 2.4 Lots of Western countries will outright deny applicants older than forties to mid thirties 2.5 Lots of Western countries will outright deny applicants who are women 2.6 Lots of Western countries will outright deny applicants who are women with children 2.7 Lots of Western countries will outright deny applicants who are women who are single 2.8 Lots of Western countries will outright deny applicants who are women who are not single 2.9 Lots of Western countries will outright deny applicants with just any health condition 3. Incentives: 3.1 Prime majority of countries don't want any more of their own people, let alone strangers. In such, immigration programs are ran as a token sign to say "hey, we are so International, we are not bigots at all!" 3.2 The minority of countries who are actively soliciting immigration are not much better, and some times worse. They obviously have their own agendas. Very often have an interest to crush their own labour into submission, or serve a political agenda. Less frequently, outright exploitation: Gulf, much of East Asia. 3.3 Incentives often are a carrot on a stick, with this stick being constantly moved forward: you a just 1 month away from a permanent residency, a month passes... wham! now qualify for 1 more year for something else 3.4 Countries providing incentives often do so, when their industries don't do well. You will be moving to a country with an already present oversupply of professionals after a downturn. Some times problems will be structural, i.e. Singapore (negative selection, where best leave, and create more openings for cheaper helloworld webdevs to move it.) 3.4 Accordingly, countries that already do well, rarely invite. 3.5 Wages today vary much in between top employers, not so much localities. Earning post tax $10k USD a month somewhere in China, India, or Vietnam is INCOMPARABLY better deal than in the West. 3.6 Accordingly, top companies in the West are no longer eager to employ foreigners in hopes to get top talent anymore. Why hire them for $10k in USA with its unions, labour rights, sjw storm, when you can hire the same guy in your captive outsourcing centre in every major 3rd world country? 3.7 Moving internationally is still freaking expensive, for a person with an already established life, a move from the depth of a third world country to USA can take anywhere up to $40k. This alone may be one years' profit of that man/woman. 3.8 Following 3.7, top tier professionals have much better odds of further progression at home. I knew like 10 guys in China who worked on $10k+ USD jobs in Googles, Amazons, and others who managed to start their business after a single year savings from such jobs. Now, try opening a business yourself as an immigrant abroad. 3.9 A lot of immigration programs outright state that you are being prohibited from running any enterprise. 3.10 A lot of immigration programs for higher calibre talents wanting to setup their businesses in the country are an outright robbery, like a requirement for 51% local capital, waving your patents to inviting research institution, or specifically waving some of your shareholder rights.