9 ms·

No problem until kids get married. Till then whats wrong with them staying with the family? They can pay rent (less than the market rate) to parents and manage

No problem until kids get married. Till then whats wrong with them staying with the family? They can pay rent (less than the market rate) to parents and manage expenses on their own. Its a total win-win situation. Stop shaming kids or parents who do that.

justinator 6y ago
Speaking purely for myself, I wanted to get out of the house as soon as possible - didn't know why. Looking back, my family was totally dysfunctional and toxic. Being in an atmosphere where I couldn't have left (due to things like the economy or whatever) would have been akin to being in an abuse romantic relationship, while living with my partner. But they don't make "safe houses" for 19 year olds trying to escape their parents. You're just homeless. Looking back, I should have ran away at ~16, things would have been much better.
- jasonv 6y ago
  I’ve always told people if they like their parents enough and the circumstances are positive, living with your parents longer can be a great option. I moved out of my parents’ home when I was 16 and never looked back. My 16 year old isn’t likely to be leaving anytime soon. He spends his evenings with his family and drives a good bit of the dynamics (game nights, weekend agendas, etc). He simply likes it at home. I’m vigilant about the time at which he’s probably going to need to separate in ways he hasn’t signaled yet, but for now, we’re all happy to be together. But he’s not 18 and in the job market and making an economic selection. But when the world is as crazy as it is now, maybe those who like their parents enough to return home are harbingers of something could that can come out of this — stronger familial connections. Certainly, my generation doesn’t seem to have it going backwards...
- diob 6y ago
  You hit the nail on the head. While others see their families as a support system, mine has always acted as the opposite. Similar to you, I wish I had gotten out earlier. I feel for all the folks who are forced to stay in abusive "support" systems just to survive.
- asiachick 6y ago
  I can't speak to your particular situation but I can say that at least in the USA it's a cultural thing to leave your parents. In many Asian cultures (and I'm sure plenty of others) there is no stigma of living with your family and no cultural push to stop. I'm on several Japanese dating sites. It's not uncommon to see people in their 40s and even 50s living at home. I have a friend in her mid 40s still living at home. It's common to see mom's (50s-60s) and daughters (20s-30s-40s) going out together. One of my closest friend's from Malaysia in is 40s, his older brother lives at home with parents, his wife, and their 10yr old son. It's normal. I know in the USA the culture tells you "GET OUT!!! YOUR PARENTS SUCK!!! FREEEEEEEEDOOOOOMMMM!" and I'm sure I could name 100+ cultural references but that's hardly the norm for the world. And I gotta say, I'm kind of jealous of people who have no issues spending lots of time with their parents. I love mine dearly but it would be hard to live with them for some reason.
  - fomine3 6y ago
    In Japan, living with parents is usual (and me!) but people laughing that is exists and a meme "a man in child room" was getting popular in 2019. IMO it helps real estate industry. I suspect that 40s/50s in dating sites is biased datapoint.
- nojvek 6y ago
  Oh man. I get where you’re coming from. Glad it worked out for you. My brother who now has kids lives with my parents. He works with my dad and they get along well. He’s now had like 2 rental properties on the side and probably has at-least 3X higher net worth than me. So while I enjoy the freedom of being in another country alone, I sometimes do ponder how life would have been if I stayed with/near them. Our kids would have enjoyed spending time with grandparents for sure. My wife could use that help. Right now she is stay-at-home mom. If we had grandparents close by, she could work. Day care is just too far expensive to be worth it. Staying with parents has a lot of benefits (esp with covid WFH thing) if you have good relationship with them.
  - emj 6y ago
    > Day care is just too far expensive to be worth it. IMHO Day care is one of the best investments a society can make, I would not like living in a political environment that makes it too expensive.
- juniper_strong 6y ago
  >> "safe houses" for 19 year olds trying to escape their parents Those were called "squats" when I was young, that's where I ended up at 19. Although I wasn't trying to escape my parents at that point, I was planning on leeching off of them. I ran away for the first time when I was 14, by the time I was 19 free food and rent in the suburbs sounded pretty nice. My parents weren't having it.
abellerose 6y ago
A lot of young adults have abusive parents. The problem isn’t about shame but working full time without being able to afford a place of their own. USA has fallen so greatly in regard to the wellbeing of youth. I guess if people think that’s fine they should know it’s not that way in other first world countries. Young adults can even pay for university without taking on huge debt.
- aaomidi 6y ago
  Yep and one of the best ways to break the cycle of abuse it to be able to get your independence as fast as possible.
- mmm_grayons 6y ago
  As a recent college student, I can personally contradict your claim that we can't pay for it without massive debt. I'm at a state school, worked during high school to save money (two jobs this past summer), and won a lot of merit scholarships that cover all of tuition and a chunk of room and board. The rest is covered by the 529 my parents set up: small, but there's very little left to spend.
  - abellerose 6y ago
    Are you really that stupid to add that part at the end while trying to contradict my claim?
    - mmm_grayons 6y ago
      Holy needless personal attacks, Batman. To which part are you referring and for what reason do you term it "stupid"?
      - abellerose 6y ago
        You obviously had better parents than most with the last sentence. Individuals with abusive parents don't have that outcome. You might want to educate yourself on how environment shapes one's character as well as genetics.
bobthepanda 6y ago
Staying in the family like that is also not very uncommon outside the US. And only in the last century in the US did single-generation households become the norm. Even when you are married mom and dad are useful as free childcare help.
- samatman 6y ago
  On the contrary, moving out to establish a nuclear household is the common pattern west of the Hajnal line[0], along with later marriage, and the lower fertility which goes with it. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hajnal_line https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hajnal_line This has been true for at least a thousand years. America was largely settled by people from this folkway. The influence that this pattern, and the bans on cousin marriage (out to fifth cousins in some cases, but second cousin marriage was commonly forbidden), has had on what we sometimes call WEIRD people, is interesting, if a bit off topic.
  - bobthepanda 6y ago
    That link says nothing about multigenerational households. At least in the early 20th century, multigenerational Irish, German and Italian immigrant households in New York were all fairly common, so I find it hard to square with what you're saying.
    - Talanes 6y ago
      I followed one of the links to this very closely related article that does go into some more detail, though the actual link to marriage age is somewhat glossed over. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_European_marriage_pattern https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_European_marriage_patt...
  - necovek 6y ago
    That is a very curious proposition, even though it only focuses on marriage age. I imagine it may have been true at some point (1965 when Hajnal looked at it), but countries of the former Yugoslavia have been having a net decline in the population since at least the 80s. I rarely meet anyone from those years (I was born in 1983) who has more than one sibling in Serbia, Montenegro, Croatia, Macedonia or Bosnia (haven't met many people from Slovenia, but they are probably even worse off). And many of my primary/high school friends are an only child too. I attribute that to widely available "free" University education (women were equally represented in student populations, if not at 50%, at 45% for sure, though "citation missing") soon after the World War 2, housing availability, etc. So the Hajnal line is trivial to disprove by just looking at numbers for a single country East of the line like Serbia: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Serbia https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Serbia Knowing some internal details like the fact that Kosovo probably had highest fertility in Serbia until it split off, the situation in 70s probably mirrored the one from countries West of the line. The pattern Hajnal notices more likely corresponds to migration into cities (move from agriculture to industrialization and now services) and wider availability of education and employment to everyone, but in particular women (which happened in Communist Yugoslavia) and rising standards of living, rather than historical cultural traits as he claims in his paper (though I found only an abstract). With more effort and closer look, I am sure that all of this could have been disputed even in 60s when the paper was published. And interestingly, more recent data suggests that West of the line now has a higher fertility than the East in Europe.
rayiner 6y ago
It’s not really a problem after kids get married either. Standard practice in India. My wife and I (in our 30s) don’t exactly live with my parents, but they’re 10 minutes away and we might not come home for days at a time. I think it’s fairly common even among Americans. My wife’s family in Oregon has more than one recently married couple living with one of their parents.
- bobthepanda 6y ago
  One upside of the multigenerational household is that the oldest generation can take care of the youngest and vice versa. In the American single-generational model you have to spend out the wazoo for childcare and retirement home.
  - rayiner 6y ago
    If you get along (which most people do) it’s great. My mom is retired, and my dad works from home. After my son started getting regular ear infections at daycare, my mom demanded to take him out of daycare. The ear infections stopped, he’s happy, my parents are happy, and we save a bunch of money.
- jelliclesfarm 6y ago
  Maybe family compounds will make a comeback. 2-3 acres with multiple family homes with a mixture of homesteading and multi generational community of friends and family. Right away, the baby sitting and day care expenses and anxieties will come down. Further post covid, perhaps home schooling micro schools in multigenerational compounds will become a thing. I hope it happens.
- closeparen 6y ago
  >they’re 10 minutes away Ten minutes is a very different level of acoustic and visual privacy from "same house."
gautamcgoel 6y ago
I think living with your parents can be an obstacle to getting married in the first place.
- searchableguy 6y ago
  That is not a problem as demonstrated by Indians.
  - scarface74 6y ago
    Please tell me if this is normal, but the one single Indian guy that I was friends with stayed with his parents and grandparents. He was in his 30s, a virgin, never dated because his family didn’t believe in frivolous dating and when he decided to get married, he went back to India, had eligible women submit from what he explained were “applications”, chose a few that he thought were appealing, went on chaperoned dates to get to know them and about six months later got married. That is not at all how things work in western cultures. That’s not meant to be a judgement, we all met for dinner a few years later, they have kids - four generations staying together, they seem happy and every time he talks about her, his eyes still light up in a way that you can’t fake.
    - notsureaboutpg 6y ago
      I'm born in the west to Indian parents and you're right this is common among Indians but I also went this route and met my spouse this way and we are really happy that we have a multigenerational household. It's especially helpful for working women like my wife because my parents are happy to watch kids if needed and we also can learn from them how to take care of kids, and they are happy to have family around, unlike so many their age. It's a win win win and anytime this is brought up the first thing people say is "Well I could never live with my parents! I had to get out of there" but honestly there's a lot worth tolerating when you're younger if it means that when you're older you have four more helping hands when you are in your early 20s, starting your careers, and having children.
      - 6y ago
viraptor 6y ago
It's not quite shaming. You can compare the number of people living with parents over time to get some reasonable narrative for why that is... But the interesting metric would be "how many people live with parents only because they can't afford to leave".
aaomidi 6y ago
Depending on the type of parents you have it can cause a lot of emotional and physical pain.
- polartx 6y ago
  Physical pain? Are you still getting spanked?
  - scollet 6y ago
    If you're making a joke, it's in poor taste.
    - aaomidi 6y ago
      100%
  - aaomidi 6y ago
    I never said anything about me. And yes there are people who are over 18 and are subject to physical punishment.
johnisgood 6y ago
Exactly. Everyone benefits. You can save a lot this way, too! Of course there can be complications, like the money you put in for the rent may be spent on some utterly stupid crap. That is what my dad does. He should save, god damn it!
- robofanatic 6y ago
  One of my friends said he saves it in a separate account and plans to surprise the kid with a lump sum gift. What a lucky kid!
scarface74 6y ago
I moved out the week after I graduated from college because I had a job in another city. I don’t think I would have moved out if I had stayed at home. I was just coming off foot surgery, could barely walk, didn’t have a girlfriend so no reason for privacy. But, how do you have a social life - let’s be honest a sex life - if you live with your parents and they do to? For most young men living in the west in normal times don’t women frown on men who still live with their parents? My wife, son and I moved in with my parents to save money one summer when we were between homes - lease was up and our house was being built. I could work remotely and my wife worked for the school system. It was really awkward in our forties even though we all tried to make the best of it. We both love our parents but we also like our privacy. When we do have your standard couple disagreements, the last thing we want is our parents being involved.
austincheney 6y ago
The problem with allowing children at home forever is a lack of forced maturity. Why bother figuring out life as an adult when instead you can continue to live carefree as a child? That is problematic in that it continues to reinforce entitlements and expectations that are associated with dependence and risk aversion without consideration for the costs and consequences therein. As somebody with a high school senior I am ready for my kid to enter the world. It’s not that I want to get rid of her but instead as a responsible parent I want to push in the controlled direction of accepting greater independence and responsibility. In putting that stress upon my child, which was a normal expectation 20 years ago, I am helping my child develop continued maturity well beyond her peers.
- jelliclesfarm 6y ago
  I don’t see kids moving out at 18 and live in dorms become mature. Family is the first classroom for real life. Perhaps there was a time when leaving home meant getting real life experiences, but in this day and age...from school to college to work, everyone is infantalised. Take for example, FAANG employees who expect to be fed, clothed and expect to be ‘taken care’ of...this generation is a complete failure. We are seeing it plainly during this covid crisis. Absolutely helpless and have burnt bridges with family and community in favour of cubicles. I am disappointed. All my tax dollars and hopes wasted on an infant generation.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - ido 6y ago
    I've heard American universities do a lot more hand holding than their European counterparts (not sure how this manifests). When I went to uni (and left home) it definitely helped me mature - I had to worry about cleaning, buying groceries, feeding myself, doing laundry, etc. I also had the freedom of nobody knowing or caring where I went and how late I came home (=greater responsibility for planning my time). But I understand what you mean - i had a childhood friend who went to a 2 years vocational school after highschool (during which he lived at home) and then enlisted in the army for 4-5 years (in a non-combat technical role). I suspect the army basically takes care of you when you live on base because afterwards he moved back home & I got the feeling he pretty much stayed stuck in a child role for years later (may be complicated by mental health issues). I think never having had to really be completely responsible for himself held him back.
threentaway 6y ago
There's nothing wrong with it, but there's a lot of reasons the child wouldn't want that, and I think that's the reason it's used as a metric of an unhealthy economy is because it indicates they have no other choice. EG: Want to have friends over but not have your parents involved? Can't do that if you don't have your own place.
- notsureaboutpg 6y ago
  Never understood this. Just go out to meet your friends rather than have them over. Also hopefully your life isn't so far away from what your parents wanted you to live like.
- mellowdream 6y ago
  Other commenters here seem to say that the culture, if not the modern phenomenon, of children moving out of their parents' homes early is more characteristic of the West (U.S., Western Europe), and not so much places like China, Japan, India (continuation of tradition, less modern stigmatization). This aligns with my experience and what little I learned in school as well. (Yes, N = 1.) It so happens that this pattern is economically inefficient, and only in our inability to support it does its discontinuation serve as a negative economic indicator. American culture makes it an effective metric in the U.S. Where it's already common for children to live with their parents longer though, such as in India, the original choice could very likely be to stay, which makes the metric less useful.
momokoko 6y ago
I would encourage looking into the term "arrested development" to get some perspective on what Americans feel about living with your parents. We are strong believers in independence and learning who you are through your own path. That's why we take such great pride in our diversity of culture and personalities. Living at home stunts that development and everyone else is worse off because we don't get the benefits of what unique things that person(not their parents) could have contributed to the greater society.
- phobosanomaly 6y ago
  It's true. It's an American thing. That cultural expectation has in no way adapted to the economic realities of the present generation though, and I expect it to pretty much die out within 1 to 2 generations. Families are going to have to start sticking together to survive. My dad paid rent in Pasadena, put himself through a Cal State, and put a roof over my mother and sister's head by working at a gas station. He will be the first to tell you that simply isn't economically possible anymore.
  - momokoko 6y ago
    > My dad paid rent in Pasadena, put himself through a Cal State, and put a roof over my mother and sister's head by working at a gas station. He will be the first to tell you that simply isn't economically possible anymore. I certainly was never able to do that either. I just moved out and rented a room in an area I could afford and worked from there. Just because your Dad had it really easy doesn't mean its become crazy difficult. It does come across like you have a very high expectations about life because you happened to have very privileged parents. Most people in the US never had the advantages your father had and we get by just fine. Maybe we'll never be millionaires, but I think we'll both be okay.
    - phobosanomaly 6y ago
      Most people in the US did have those advantages. That's kind of my point. The guy pumping gas for minimum wage used to be able to do all of that. I don't know what your personal life situation is at the moment, and I do apologize if you are on hard times. I know it's rough out there. I'm inferring from your comment that you are in the United States. Do you really think a shot at a rented roof over one's head, a college education from a state school, and a kid is asking for the moon?
tekdude 6y ago
I can't speak to everyone, but a lot of young people need to leave their parents' house because it's in a region without a lot of good employment. Some people grow up in rural or rustbelt areas. For example: my parents don't live on a farm, but their house is between a corn field and a forest. The only work in the vicinity is farm labor, local gov, or retail/service. I guess a remote job could be an option, but their only internet option is slow unreliable DSL (cuts out every 20-30 minutes, phone company unable to diagnose the issue). The nearest city is about a half hour away. It's relatively small, but does have some opportunities. No tech scene though, of course. There are a couple of small factories remaining, some banking/insurance business, hospitals and medical, and more retail/service. My dad was an electrical engineer, and he had to commute 1+ hours each way to get to his office. Even if I was willing to commute that far, that wouldn't be an option since that company left long ago. My parents do have an absolutely gorgeous view of a scenic rural valley outside their front windows though, and 100s of acres of forest behind them.
- mindentropy 6y ago
  Same situation here. Would love to go back but for job opportunities . Now that other companies are open to wfh I think I have to look out. As for your DSL I too had the same problem and I found stability after I switched to Netgear from Linksys. Have you looked at that? I disable all the built in Wi-Fi and just use the modem and use a separate Wi-Fi hw so that I don't tax the modem hw.
ekianjo 6y ago
> Till then whats wrong with them staying with the family? Leaving the family is good for many reasons. It teaches you to be independent, to live on your own, to handle your responsibilities, manage your earnings, i.e. to become an actual adult instead of relying on your family to cook, wash and do all/most of the chores for you. You can't get ready for a family and provide for them if you can't do these kind of things on your own in the first place. It's all about building experience and self-reliance. Of course every family is different, but in society at large having kids staying longer with their parents definitely delay actual adulthood.
- watwut 6y ago
  Why do you expect familly living with you to do all household work for you? Or that college dorm is first time students are figuring laundry? Seriously, one special assumption Americans do is that mom does all the housework and teenage kids do none of that. The other absurd expectation is that laundry and cooking requires some special figuring out. Like, this all primary sounds like an issue of you all parent 7-16 years old more then anything else.
  - lotsofpulp 6y ago
    Yes, there is no reason kids shouldn’t partaking in all the housework by the time they are in their teens.
  - mmm_grayons 6y ago
    This seems to be an assumption common amongst newer generations. I was expected to my own laundry, mostly feed myself, get myself places, manage my schedule, do a good chunk of the housework, etc. It made sure I didn't fall flat on my behind when I hit the real world, and plus, I don't see why a parent should have to do those things when a child is physically capable of doing so.
runamok 6y ago
This is super common in many countries. Mexico for instance...
swiley 6y ago
1) my parents go to bed at ~9:00 and got cranky if I’m out past then. 2) my parents have an extremely conservative view on dating that I don’t share. 3) my mother verbally abused me most mornings and I would rather be homeless than return to that 4) my parents live in an extremely rural place that makes socializing a challenge.
Theory5 6y ago
In other countries and cultures, living with parents is entirely normal. My girlfriend is from India, and was very confused as to the whole "looking down upon people who don't move out" stance people take here. I explained a bit about how its seen due to our views (be they correct or not) of self-reliance, and other issues such as if they're just mooching off their parents, but I agree its still not as bad as people make it out to be.
joemazerino 6y ago
Personal growth. One can't accept the true realities of the world if they still live under their momma's roof.

justinator 6y ago

Speaking purely for myself, I wanted to get out of the house as soon as possible - didn't know why. Looking back, my family was totally dysfunctional and toxic. Being in an atmosphere where I couldn't have left (due to things like the economy or whatever) would have been akin to being in an abuse romantic relationship, while living with my partner. But they don't make "safe houses" for 19 year olds trying to escape their parents. You're just homeless. Looking back, I should have ran away at ~16, things would have been much better.

jasonv 6y ago
I’ve always told people if they like their parents enough and the circumstances are positive, living with your parents longer can be a great option. I moved out of my parents’ home when I was 16 and never looked back. My 16 year old isn’t likely to be leaving anytime soon. He spends his evenings with his family and drives a good bit of the dynamics (game nights, weekend agendas, etc). He simply likes it at home. I’m vigilant about the time at which he’s probably going to need to separate in ways he hasn’t signaled yet, but for now, we’re all happy to be together. But he’s not 18 and in the job market and making an economic selection. But when the world is as crazy as it is now, maybe those who like their parents enough to return home are harbingers of something could that can come out of this — stronger familial connections. Certainly, my generation doesn’t seem to have it going backwards...
diob 6y ago
You hit the nail on the head. While others see their families as a support system, mine has always acted as the opposite. Similar to you, I wish I had gotten out earlier. I feel for all the folks who are forced to stay in abusive "support" systems just to survive.
asiachick 6y ago
I can't speak to your particular situation but I can say that at least in the USA it's a cultural thing to leave your parents. In many Asian cultures (and I'm sure plenty of others) there is no stigma of living with your family and no cultural push to stop. I'm on several Japanese dating sites. It's not uncommon to see people in their 40s and even 50s living at home. I have a friend in her mid 40s still living at home. It's common to see mom's (50s-60s) and daughters (20s-30s-40s) going out together. One of my closest friend's from Malaysia in is 40s, his older brother lives at home with parents, his wife, and their 10yr old son. It's normal. I know in the USA the culture tells you "GET OUT!!! YOUR PARENTS SUCK!!! FREEEEEEEEDOOOOOMMMM!" and I'm sure I could name 100+ cultural references but that's hardly the norm for the world. And I gotta say, I'm kind of jealous of people who have no issues spending lots of time with their parents. I love mine dearly but it would be hard to live with them for some reason.
- fomine3 6y ago
  In Japan, living with parents is usual (and me!) but people laughing that is exists and a meme "a man in child room" was getting popular in 2019. IMO it helps real estate industry. I suspect that 40s/50s in dating sites is biased datapoint.
nojvek 6y ago
Oh man. I get where you’re coming from. Glad it worked out for you. My brother who now has kids lives with my parents. He works with my dad and they get along well. He’s now had like 2 rental properties on the side and probably has at-least 3X higher net worth than me. So while I enjoy the freedom of being in another country alone, I sometimes do ponder how life would have been if I stayed with/near them. Our kids would have enjoyed spending time with grandparents for sure. My wife could use that help. Right now she is stay-at-home mom. If we had grandparents close by, she could work. Day care is just too far expensive to be worth it. Staying with parents has a lot of benefits (esp with covid WFH thing) if you have good relationship with them.
- emj 6y ago
  > Day care is just too far expensive to be worth it. IMHO Day care is one of the best investments a society can make, I would not like living in a political environment that makes it too expensive.
juniper_strong 6y ago
>> "safe houses" for 19 year olds trying to escape their parents Those were called "squats" when I was young, that's where I ended up at 19. Although I wasn't trying to escape my parents at that point, I was planning on leeching off of them. I ran away for the first time when I was 14, by the time I was 19 free food and rent in the suburbs sounded pretty nice. My parents weren't having it.

abellerose 6y ago

A lot of young adults have abusive parents. The problem isn’t about shame but working full time without being able to afford a place of their own. USA has fallen so greatly in regard to the wellbeing of youth. I guess if people think that’s fine they should know it’s not that way in other first world countries. Young adults can even pay for university without taking on huge debt.

aaomidi 6y ago
Yep and one of the best ways to break the cycle of abuse it to be able to get your independence as fast as possible.
mmm_grayons 6y ago
As a recent college student, I can personally contradict your claim that we can't pay for it without massive debt. I'm at a state school, worked during high school to save money (two jobs this past summer), and won a lot of merit scholarships that cover all of tuition and a chunk of room and board. The rest is covered by the 529 my parents set up: small, but there's very little left to spend.
- abellerose 6y ago
  Are you really that stupid to add that part at the end while trying to contradict my claim?
  - mmm_grayons 6y ago
    Holy needless personal attacks, Batman. To which part are you referring and for what reason do you term it "stupid"?
    - abellerose 6y ago
      You obviously had better parents than most with the last sentence. Individuals with abusive parents don't have that outcome. You might want to educate yourself on how environment shapes one's character as well as genetics.

bobthepanda 6y ago

Staying in the family like that is also not very uncommon outside the US. And only in the last century in the US did single-generation households become the norm. Even when you are married mom and dad are useful as free childcare help.

samatman 6y ago
On the contrary, moving out to establish a nuclear household is the common pattern west of the Hajnal line[0], along with later marriage, and the lower fertility which goes with it. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hajnal_line https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hajnal_line This has been true for at least a thousand years. America was largely settled by people from this folkway. The influence that this pattern, and the bans on cousin marriage (out to fifth cousins in some cases, but second cousin marriage was commonly forbidden), has had on what we sometimes call WEIRD people, is interesting, if a bit off topic.
- bobthepanda 6y ago
  That link says nothing about multigenerational households. At least in the early 20th century, multigenerational Irish, German and Italian immigrant households in New York were all fairly common, so I find it hard to square with what you're saying.
  - Talanes 6y ago
    I followed one of the links to this very closely related article that does go into some more detail, though the actual link to marriage age is somewhat glossed over. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_European_marriage_pattern https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_European_marriage_patt...
- necovek 6y ago
  That is a very curious proposition, even though it only focuses on marriage age. I imagine it may have been true at some point (1965 when Hajnal looked at it), but countries of the former Yugoslavia have been having a net decline in the population since at least the 80s. I rarely meet anyone from those years (I was born in 1983) who has more than one sibling in Serbia, Montenegro, Croatia, Macedonia or Bosnia (haven't met many people from Slovenia, but they are probably even worse off). And many of my primary/high school friends are an only child too. I attribute that to widely available "free" University education (women were equally represented in student populations, if not at 50%, at 45% for sure, though "citation missing") soon after the World War 2, housing availability, etc. So the Hajnal line is trivial to disprove by just looking at numbers for a single country East of the line like Serbia: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Serbia https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Serbia Knowing some internal details like the fact that Kosovo probably had highest fertility in Serbia until it split off, the situation in 70s probably mirrored the one from countries West of the line. The pattern Hajnal notices more likely corresponds to migration into cities (move from agriculture to industrialization and now services) and wider availability of education and employment to everyone, but in particular women (which happened in Communist Yugoslavia) and rising standards of living, rather than historical cultural traits as he claims in his paper (though I found only an abstract). With more effort and closer look, I am sure that all of this could have been disputed even in 60s when the paper was published. And interestingly, more recent data suggests that West of the line now has a higher fertility than the East in Europe.

rayiner 6y ago

It’s not really a problem after kids get married either. Standard practice in India. My wife and I (in our 30s) don’t exactly live with my parents, but they’re 10 minutes away and we might not come home for days at a time. I think it’s fairly common even among Americans. My wife’s family in Oregon has more than one recently married couple living with one of their parents.

bobthepanda 6y ago
One upside of the multigenerational household is that the oldest generation can take care of the youngest and vice versa. In the American single-generational model you have to spend out the wazoo for childcare and retirement home.
- rayiner 6y ago
  If you get along (which most people do) it’s great. My mom is retired, and my dad works from home. After my son started getting regular ear infections at daycare, my mom demanded to take him out of daycare. The ear infections stopped, he’s happy, my parents are happy, and we save a bunch of money.
jelliclesfarm 6y ago
Maybe family compounds will make a comeback. 2-3 acres with multiple family homes with a mixture of homesteading and multi generational community of friends and family. Right away, the baby sitting and day care expenses and anxieties will come down. Further post covid, perhaps home schooling micro schools in multigenerational compounds will become a thing. I hope it happens.
closeparen 6y ago
>they’re 10 minutes away Ten minutes is a very different level of acoustic and visual privacy from "same house."

gautamcgoel 6y ago

I think living with your parents can be an obstacle to getting married in the first place.

searchableguy 6y ago
That is not a problem as demonstrated by Indians.
- scarface74 6y ago
  Please tell me if this is normal, but the one single Indian guy that I was friends with stayed with his parents and grandparents. He was in his 30s, a virgin, never dated because his family didn’t believe in frivolous dating and when he decided to get married, he went back to India, had eligible women submit from what he explained were “applications”, chose a few that he thought were appealing, went on chaperoned dates to get to know them and about six months later got married. That is not at all how things work in western cultures. That’s not meant to be a judgement, we all met for dinner a few years later, they have kids - four generations staying together, they seem happy and every time he talks about her, his eyes still light up in a way that you can’t fake.
  - notsureaboutpg 6y ago
    I'm born in the west to Indian parents and you're right this is common among Indians but I also went this route and met my spouse this way and we are really happy that we have a multigenerational household. It's especially helpful for working women like my wife because my parents are happy to watch kids if needed and we also can learn from them how to take care of kids, and they are happy to have family around, unlike so many their age. It's a win win win and anytime this is brought up the first thing people say is "Well I could never live with my parents! I had to get out of there" but honestly there's a lot worth tolerating when you're younger if it means that when you're older you have four more helping hands when you are in your early 20s, starting your careers, and having children.
    - 6y ago

viraptor 6y ago

It's not quite shaming. You can compare the number of people living with parents over time to get some reasonable narrative for why that is... But the interesting metric would be "how many people live with parents only because they can't afford to leave".

aaomidi 6y ago

Depending on the type of parents you have it can cause a lot of emotional and physical pain.

polartx 6y ago
Physical pain? Are you still getting spanked?
- scollet 6y ago
  If you're making a joke, it's in poor taste.
  - aaomidi 6y ago
    100%
- aaomidi 6y ago
  I never said anything about me. And yes there are people who are over 18 and are subject to physical punishment.

johnisgood 6y ago

Exactly. Everyone benefits. You can save a lot this way, too! Of course there can be complications, like the money you put in for the rent may be spent on some utterly stupid crap. That is what my dad does. He should save, god damn it!

robofanatic 6y ago
One of my friends said he saves it in a separate account and plans to surprise the kid with a lump sum gift. What a lucky kid!

scarface74 6y ago

I moved out the week after I graduated from college because I had a job in another city. I don’t think I would have moved out if I had stayed at home. I was just coming off foot surgery, could barely walk, didn’t have a girlfriend so no reason for privacy. But, how do you have a social life - let’s be honest a sex life - if you live with your parents and they do to? For most young men living in the west in normal times don’t women frown on men who still live with their parents? My wife, son and I moved in with my parents to save money one summer when we were between homes - lease was up and our house was being built. I could work remotely and my wife worked for the school system. It was really awkward in our forties even though we all tried to make the best of it. We both love our parents but we also like our privacy. When we do have your standard couple disagreements, the last thing we want is our parents being involved.

austincheney 6y ago

The problem with allowing children at home forever is a lack of forced maturity. Why bother figuring out life as an adult when instead you can continue to live carefree as a child? That is problematic in that it continues to reinforce entitlements and expectations that are associated with dependence and risk aversion without consideration for the costs and consequences therein. As somebody with a high school senior I am ready for my kid to enter the world. It’s not that I want to get rid of her but instead as a responsible parent I want to push in the controlled direction of accepting greater independence and responsibility. In putting that stress upon my child, which was a normal expectation 20 years ago, I am helping my child develop continued maturity well beyond her peers.

jelliclesfarm 6y ago
I don’t see kids moving out at 18 and live in dorms become mature. Family is the first classroom for real life. Perhaps there was a time when leaving home meant getting real life experiences, but in this day and age...from school to college to work, everyone is infantalised. Take for example, FAANG employees who expect to be fed, clothed and expect to be ‘taken care’ of...this generation is a complete failure. We are seeing it plainly during this covid crisis. Absolutely helpless and have burnt bridges with family and community in favour of cubicles. I am disappointed. All my tax dollars and hopes wasted on an infant generation.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- ido 6y ago
  I've heard American universities do a lot more hand holding than their European counterparts (not sure how this manifests). When I went to uni (and left home) it definitely helped me mature - I had to worry about cleaning, buying groceries, feeding myself, doing laundry, etc. I also had the freedom of nobody knowing or caring where I went and how late I came home (=greater responsibility for planning my time). But I understand what you mean - i had a childhood friend who went to a 2 years vocational school after highschool (during which he lived at home) and then enlisted in the army for 4-5 years (in a non-combat technical role). I suspect the army basically takes care of you when you live on base because afterwards he moved back home & I got the feeling he pretty much stayed stuck in a child role for years later (may be complicated by mental health issues). I think never having had to really be completely responsible for himself held him back.

threentaway 6y ago

There's nothing wrong with it, but there's a lot of reasons the child wouldn't want that, and I think that's the reason it's used as a metric of an unhealthy economy is because it indicates they have no other choice. EG: Want to have friends over but not have your parents involved? Can't do that if you don't have your own place.

notsureaboutpg 6y ago
Never understood this. Just go out to meet your friends rather than have them over. Also hopefully your life isn't so far away from what your parents wanted you to live like.
mellowdream 6y ago
Other commenters here seem to say that the culture, if not the modern phenomenon, of children moving out of their parents' homes early is more characteristic of the West (U.S., Western Europe), and not so much places like China, Japan, India (continuation of tradition, less modern stigmatization). This aligns with my experience and what little I learned in school as well. (Yes, N = 1.) It so happens that this pattern is economically inefficient, and only in our inability to support it does its discontinuation serve as a negative economic indicator. American culture makes it an effective metric in the U.S. Where it's already common for children to live with their parents longer though, such as in India, the original choice could very likely be to stay, which makes the metric less useful.

momokoko 6y ago

I would encourage looking into the term "arrested development" to get some perspective on what Americans feel about living with your parents. We are strong believers in independence and learning who you are through your own path. That's why we take such great pride in our diversity of culture and personalities. Living at home stunts that development and everyone else is worse off because we don't get the benefits of what unique things that person(not their parents) could have contributed to the greater society.

phobosanomaly 6y ago
It's true. It's an American thing. That cultural expectation has in no way adapted to the economic realities of the present generation though, and I expect it to pretty much die out within 1 to 2 generations. Families are going to have to start sticking together to survive. My dad paid rent in Pasadena, put himself through a Cal State, and put a roof over my mother and sister's head by working at a gas station. He will be the first to tell you that simply isn't economically possible anymore.
- momokoko 6y ago
  > My dad paid rent in Pasadena, put himself through a Cal State, and put a roof over my mother and sister's head by working at a gas station. He will be the first to tell you that simply isn't economically possible anymore. I certainly was never able to do that either. I just moved out and rented a room in an area I could afford and worked from there. Just because your Dad had it really easy doesn't mean its become crazy difficult. It does come across like you have a very high expectations about life because you happened to have very privileged parents. Most people in the US never had the advantages your father had and we get by just fine. Maybe we'll never be millionaires, but I think we'll both be okay.
  - phobosanomaly 6y ago
    Most people in the US did have those advantages. That's kind of my point. The guy pumping gas for minimum wage used to be able to do all of that. I don't know what your personal life situation is at the moment, and I do apologize if you are on hard times. I know it's rough out there. I'm inferring from your comment that you are in the United States. Do you really think a shot at a rented roof over one's head, a college education from a state school, and a kid is asking for the moon?

tekdude 6y ago

I can't speak to everyone, but a lot of young people need to leave their parents' house because it's in a region without a lot of good employment. Some people grow up in rural or rustbelt areas. For example: my parents don't live on a farm, but their house is between a corn field and a forest. The only work in the vicinity is farm labor, local gov, or retail/service. I guess a remote job could be an option, but their only internet option is slow unreliable DSL (cuts out every 20-30 minutes, phone company unable to diagnose the issue). The nearest city is about a half hour away. It's relatively small, but does have some opportunities. No tech scene though, of course. There are a couple of small factories remaining, some banking/insurance business, hospitals and medical, and more retail/service. My dad was an electrical engineer, and he had to commute 1+ hours each way to get to his office. Even if I was willing to commute that far, that wouldn't be an option since that company left long ago. My parents do have an absolutely gorgeous view of a scenic rural valley outside their front windows though, and 100s of acres of forest behind them.

mindentropy 6y ago
Same situation here. Would love to go back but for job opportunities . Now that other companies are open to wfh I think I have to look out. As for your DSL I too had the same problem and I found stability after I switched to Netgear from Linksys. Have you looked at that? I disable all the built in Wi-Fi and just use the modem and use a separate Wi-Fi hw so that I don't tax the modem hw.

ekianjo 6y ago

> Till then whats wrong with them staying with the family? Leaving the family is good for many reasons. It teaches you to be independent, to live on your own, to handle your responsibilities, manage your earnings, i.e. to become an actual adult instead of relying on your family to cook, wash and do all/most of the chores for you. You can't get ready for a family and provide for them if you can't do these kind of things on your own in the first place. It's all about building experience and self-reliance. Of course every family is different, but in society at large having kids staying longer with their parents definitely delay actual adulthood.

watwut 6y ago
Why do you expect familly living with you to do all household work for you? Or that college dorm is first time students are figuring laundry? Seriously, one special assumption Americans do is that mom does all the housework and teenage kids do none of that. The other absurd expectation is that laundry and cooking requires some special figuring out. Like, this all primary sounds like an issue of you all parent 7-16 years old more then anything else.
- lotsofpulp 6y ago
  Yes, there is no reason kids shouldn’t partaking in all the housework by the time they are in their teens.
- mmm_grayons 6y ago
  This seems to be an assumption common amongst newer generations. I was expected to my own laundry, mostly feed myself, get myself places, manage my schedule, do a good chunk of the housework, etc. It made sure I didn't fall flat on my behind when I hit the real world, and plus, I don't see why a parent should have to do those things when a child is physically capable of doing so.

runamok 6y ago

This is super common in many countries. Mexico for instance...

swiley 6y ago

1) my parents go to bed at ~9:00 and got cranky if I’m out past then. 2) my parents have an extremely conservative view on dating that I don’t share. 3) my mother verbally abused me most mornings and I would rather be homeless than return to that 4) my parents live in an extremely rural place that makes socializing a challenge.

Theory5 6y ago

In other countries and cultures, living with parents is entirely normal. My girlfriend is from India, and was very confused as to the whole "looking down upon people who don't move out" stance people take here. I explained a bit about how its seen due to our views (be they correct or not) of self-reliance, and other issues such as if they're just mooching off their parents, but I agree its still not as bad as people make it out to be.

joemazerino 6y ago

Personal growth. One can't accept the true realities of the world if they still live under their momma's roof.