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Wow. This article is one of the most compelling I've read in a while. There's even a bit in there about models and reality with respect to (authoritarian) gover

by wenc 6y ago

Wow. This article is one of the most compelling I've read in a while. There's even a bit in there about models and reality with respect to (authoritarian) governance and size, and why simplistic schemata suffer from large errors in larger states: "Decision-makers must rely on simplified models to make their decisions. All schemata are by nature imperfect representations of reality. Indeed, a scheme that reflected reality perfectly would be cluttered and uninterpretable. The reality is always more complex than the plan. In large countries, the planner is further from ground reality than in tiny city-states. Abstractions and errors inevitably compound as the distance increases." and on first-principles: "Ironically, Lee Kuan Yew himself had no patience for other people’s models. In his words, “I am not following any prescription given to me by any theoretician on democracy or whatever. I work from first principles: what will get me there?” If there is a lesson from Singapore’s development it is this: forget grand ideologies and others’ models. There is no replacement for experimentation, independent thought, and ruthless pragmatism." In that sense, Singapore is like a startup at a country-level.

nickff 6y ago
You may be interested James C. Scott’s “Seeing Like a State”, which is an excellent book that focuses on these issues.
ergocoder 6y ago
Yes. It's one flaw of democracy. In a dictatorship, if the leader is great, it will grow like crazy... It's like a startup with great founders. On the other hand, the problem will come when a hand-off needs to happen. Singapore is clever enough to keep the democratic process, so it has some decent hand-off process.
- leafboi 6y ago
  Don't think that the democratic process guarantees a good hand off... it's still a crap shoot and a lucky draw. See current President Camacho of the United States. Unlike a dictator, the aggregate will of the people never serves the self interest of a single individual. The issue with majority rule is that the aggregate intelligence/judgement of the people is likely not matched with what is required to select a good leader.
  - harshitaneja 6y ago
    Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others.
  - dddw 6y ago
    Love the idiocracy reference there
  - Spooky23 6y ago
    The current situation reflects how law and society has lagged behind technolgy and social media. We moved away from moderated information delivery to a torrent of self-published nonsense. For every HN post, there are a dozen lunatics.
  - srtjstjsj 6y ago
    Did you watch the whole movie? President Camacho was a good leader.
- sam_lynx 6y ago
  Eh, as they said in the article: "Part of the mythos of Lee Kuan Yew is that he succeeded as an authoritarian where so many others have failed." Singapore is the exception; authoritarian governments are almost always bad for the people otherwise.
  - kingkawn 6y ago
    Many Singaporeans will tell you that their experience is quite repressive
    - sam_lynx 6y ago
      True -- after all, it is still authoritarian, the only difference is that this authoritarian government seems to care for the wealth of its citizens (although not much else.)
  - dv_dt 6y ago
    Benevolent dictatorship is not just a sarcastic phrase, it is sometimes true for some distributions of benevolence in history. The more interesting question is what happens after he passes away, or cannot continue to make decisions.
- hellofunk 6y ago
  > Singapore is clever enough to keep the democratic process Mainly it appears to be a democracy. Speak to any of the cab drivers there who feel somewhat liberated to talk safely with a foreigner who is on the way to the airport, and they will tell you something about Singapore's democracy.
  - nicholasluimy 6y ago
    Not sure if that's a fair judgement - It seems particularly endemic that it's almost a meme/stereotype in itself in Singapore; that all cab drivers are discontent with the government
    - CyberDildonics 6y ago
      Singapore is not a democracy. They have sham elections where the opposition party is only allowed to have media coverage by the single state run media channel for three weeks before the election. If your neighborhood votes for the opposition party you lose funding for things like public transportation. Lee Kuan Yew lives in a giant, gated, guarded compound in the middle of the most valuable real estate in the city. Also criticizing the government is a crime and saying the wrong thing on facebook can land you in prison.
      - ZephyrP 6y ago
        >> Lee Kuan Yew lives in a giant, gated, guarded compound in the middle of the most valuable real estate in the city Didn't he die the better part of a decade ago?
        pitterpatter 6y ago
        I wonder if they meant his son, Lee Hsien Loong, the current prime minister.
        hatenberg 6y ago
        Its also super disingenuous LKY lived in a rather small house. The current president tried to continue living in her HDB (public housing) after taking office but gave up on advice of security and complaints from neighbours about said security.
- Spooky23 6y ago
  It’s just like any company, which are usually little dictatorships. If the controls and discipline aren’t present, you get a failed state with everyone’s crony wasting and damaging the whole.
leafboi 6y ago
I think because HN's audience is mostly US based there's a high level of bias towards democratic governments. I think if we all take a look at it from a unbiased angle it's all really apples and oranges. A bad dictator is not so different from a democracy electing bad leaders and a good dictator is not so different from a democracy electing good leaders. The thing with a democracy is that you have a lot of checks and balances so an elected bad leader can't do much damage... but then again an elected good leader can't do much good either.
- blocked_again 6y ago
  It's better to have a leader that do some good and some bad things than having a leader that do a lot of good and lot of bad things.
- BatFastard 6y ago
  Problem with a bad dictator is you may be stuck with him/her for life. With elected leaders you can usually get rid of them.
- hellofunk 6y ago
  This is somewhat of a naive view -- the risks of any kind of dictatorship far outweigh any slight chance of good.
  - wenc 6y ago
    I tend to agree -- it seems to me that democracy creates ecological conditions favorable to long-term survival, because the risk of destruction under dictatorship is asymmetric with respect to the probability of prosperity. Democratic checks-and-balances assume the inescapability of despotic buffoons who rise to power either through force or sometimes even through the people's choice (while it's good to believe in the wisdom of crowds, one must always account for its lapses). I think these are very realistic assumptions.
    - leafboi 6y ago
      The problem is there's no definitive evidence that proves this yet.
rorykoehler 6y ago
Singapore is even more like a startup than you allude to. The whole country is run like a large corporation.
- hellofunk 6y ago
  Yes, even to the degree that its leaders have become quite wealthy through the infrastructure of the government.
  - chillacy 6y ago
    AFAIK one of LKY’s stated goals was to compete with private corporations for the best talent by paying comparably. DPMs are paid quite handsomely but not incomparable to C suite pay at large companies.
    - oxygenoxy 6y ago
      Not incomparable meaning DPMs are paid comparable to C suites at large companies?
      - rorykoehler 6y ago
        from Wikipedia: >Singapore's ministers are the highest paid in the world. Prior to a salary review in 2011, the Prime Minister's annual salary was S$3.07 million, while the pay of ministerial-grade officers ranged between S$1.58 million and S$2.37 million. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cabinet_of_Singapore https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cabinet_of_Singapore
AmericanChopper 6y ago
If you want to consider the success of LKY’s first principles, you should probably consider what they are. Free market economics, low taxation, user pays healthcare, restrictive welfare entitlements, restrictive immigration, and no minimum wage. Singapore is a mostly-benevolent, mostly-single-party state, with rather poor individual freedoms, but an approach to economic liberty and self-reliance that would be considered extremist in most of the west.
- nine_zeros 6y ago
  > Free market economics, low taxation, user pays healthcare, restrictive welfare entitlements, restrictive immigration, and no minimum wage. Did you just pull this out of your arse? I don't know if you need training in google fu or just plain ol calling out on bullshit. At least google what they do with healthcare and immigration (for a country smaller than nyc)
  - AmericanChopper 6y ago
    I used to live in Singapore. I’m particularly familiar with how they do things. > No minimum wage > As a matter of national policy, MOM does not prescribe minimum wages for all workers in Singapore, whether local or foreign. Whether wages should increase or decrease is best determined by market demand and supply for labour. https://www.mom.gov.sg/faq/work-permit-for-foreign-worker/is-there-a-prescribed-minimum-wage-for-foreign-workers-in-singapore https://www.mom.gov.sg/faq/work-permit-for-foreign-worker/is... > User pays healthcare Government offers a partially subsidised health insurance plan. But you have to apply and pay for it yourself. https://www.sgmoneymatters.com/medishield-life/ https://www.sgmoneymatters.com/medishield-life/ > restrictive welfare entitlements Singapore doesn’t have an unemployment benefit. You can get a few months worth of assistance if you lose your job. The closest it has is ComCare, which is mostly reserved for invalids. https://www.msf.gov.sg/Comcare/Pages/Public-Assistance.aspx https://www.msf.gov.sg/Comcare/Pages/Public-Assistance.aspx > restrictive immigration Singapore immigration policy has always focused on maximizing employment for Singaporeans https://www.aseanbriefing.com/news/singapores-ministry-manpower-revises-rules-hiring-foreign-employees/ https://www.aseanbriefing.com/news/singapores-ministry-manpo... Probably also worth noting, they don’t accept refugees: https://www.refworld.org/pdfid/5a12da0a2.pdf https://www.refworld.org/pdfid/5a12da0a2.pdf > low taxes Singapore is considered a tax haven by many people. https://www.iras.gov.sg/irashome/Individuals/Locals/Working-Out-Your-Taxes/Income-Tax-Rates/ https://www.iras.gov.sg/irashome/Individuals/Locals/Working-... > Free market economics It is considered to have the highest economic freedom in the world https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Index_of_Economic_Freedom https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Index_of_Economic_Freedom Singapore is basically an economic libertarian utopia. It is a case study in the effect of uncompromising free market economics.

by wenc 6y ago

nickff 6y ago

You may be interested James C. Scott’s “Seeing Like a State”, which is an excellent book that focuses on these issues.

ergocoder 6y ago

Yes. It's one flaw of democracy. In a dictatorship, if the leader is great, it will grow like crazy... It's like a startup with great founders. On the other hand, the problem will come when a hand-off needs to happen. Singapore is clever enough to keep the democratic process, so it has some decent hand-off process.

leafboi 6y ago
Don't think that the democratic process guarantees a good hand off... it's still a crap shoot and a lucky draw. See current President Camacho of the United States. Unlike a dictator, the aggregate will of the people never serves the self interest of a single individual. The issue with majority rule is that the aggregate intelligence/judgement of the people is likely not matched with what is required to select a good leader.
- harshitaneja 6y ago
  Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others.
- dddw 6y ago
  Love the idiocracy reference there
- Spooky23 6y ago
  The current situation reflects how law and society has lagged behind technolgy and social media. We moved away from moderated information delivery to a torrent of self-published nonsense. For every HN post, there are a dozen lunatics.
- srtjstjsj 6y ago
  Did you watch the whole movie? President Camacho was a good leader.
sam_lynx 6y ago
Eh, as they said in the article: "Part of the mythos of Lee Kuan Yew is that he succeeded as an authoritarian where so many others have failed." Singapore is the exception; authoritarian governments are almost always bad for the people otherwise.
- kingkawn 6y ago
  Many Singaporeans will tell you that their experience is quite repressive
  - sam_lynx 6y ago
    True -- after all, it is still authoritarian, the only difference is that this authoritarian government seems to care for the wealth of its citizens (although not much else.)
- dv_dt 6y ago
  Benevolent dictatorship is not just a sarcastic phrase, it is sometimes true for some distributions of benevolence in history. The more interesting question is what happens after he passes away, or cannot continue to make decisions.
hellofunk 6y ago
> Singapore is clever enough to keep the democratic process Mainly it appears to be a democracy. Speak to any of the cab drivers there who feel somewhat liberated to talk safely with a foreigner who is on the way to the airport, and they will tell you something about Singapore's democracy.
- nicholasluimy 6y ago
  Not sure if that's a fair judgement - It seems particularly endemic that it's almost a meme/stereotype in itself in Singapore; that all cab drivers are discontent with the government
  - CyberDildonics 6y ago
    Singapore is not a democracy. They have sham elections where the opposition party is only allowed to have media coverage by the single state run media channel for three weeks before the election. If your neighborhood votes for the opposition party you lose funding for things like public transportation. Lee Kuan Yew lives in a giant, gated, guarded compound in the middle of the most valuable real estate in the city. Also criticizing the government is a crime and saying the wrong thing on facebook can land you in prison.
    - ZephyrP 6y ago
      >> Lee Kuan Yew lives in a giant, gated, guarded compound in the middle of the most valuable real estate in the city Didn't he die the better part of a decade ago?
      - pitterpatter 6y ago
        I wonder if they meant his son, Lee Hsien Loong, the current prime minister.
      - hatenberg 6y ago
        Its also super disingenuous LKY lived in a rather small house. The current president tried to continue living in her HDB (public housing) after taking office but gave up on advice of security and complaints from neighbours about said security.
Spooky23 6y ago
It’s just like any company, which are usually little dictatorships. If the controls and discipline aren’t present, you get a failed state with everyone’s crony wasting and damaging the whole.

leafboi 6y ago

I think because HN's audience is mostly US based there's a high level of bias towards democratic governments. I think if we all take a look at it from a unbiased angle it's all really apples and oranges. A bad dictator is not so different from a democracy electing bad leaders and a good dictator is not so different from a democracy electing good leaders. The thing with a democracy is that you have a lot of checks and balances so an elected bad leader can't do much damage... but then again an elected good leader can't do much good either.

blocked_again 6y ago
It's better to have a leader that do some good and some bad things than having a leader that do a lot of good and lot of bad things.
BatFastard 6y ago
Problem with a bad dictator is you may be stuck with him/her for life. With elected leaders you can usually get rid of them.
hellofunk 6y ago
This is somewhat of a naive view -- the risks of any kind of dictatorship far outweigh any slight chance of good.
- wenc 6y ago
  I tend to agree -- it seems to me that democracy creates ecological conditions favorable to long-term survival, because the risk of destruction under dictatorship is asymmetric with respect to the probability of prosperity. Democratic checks-and-balances assume the inescapability of despotic buffoons who rise to power either through force or sometimes even through the people's choice (while it's good to believe in the wisdom of crowds, one must always account for its lapses). I think these are very realistic assumptions.
  - leafboi 6y ago
    The problem is there's no definitive evidence that proves this yet.

rorykoehler 6y ago

Singapore is even more like a startup than you allude to. The whole country is run like a large corporation.

hellofunk 6y ago
Yes, even to the degree that its leaders have become quite wealthy through the infrastructure of the government.
- chillacy 6y ago
  AFAIK one of LKY’s stated goals was to compete with private corporations for the best talent by paying comparably. DPMs are paid quite handsomely but not incomparable to C suite pay at large companies.
  - oxygenoxy 6y ago
    Not incomparable meaning DPMs are paid comparable to C suites at large companies?
    - rorykoehler 6y ago
      from Wikipedia: >Singapore's ministers are the highest paid in the world. Prior to a salary review in 2011, the Prime Minister's annual salary was S$3.07 million, while the pay of ministerial-grade officers ranged between S$1.58 million and S$2.37 million. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cabinet_of_Singapore https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cabinet_of_Singapore

AmericanChopper 6y ago

If you want to consider the success of LKY’s first principles, you should probably consider what they are. Free market economics, low taxation, user pays healthcare, restrictive welfare entitlements, restrictive immigration, and no minimum wage. Singapore is a mostly-benevolent, mostly-single-party state, with rather poor individual freedoms, but an approach to economic liberty and self-reliance that would be considered extremist in most of the west.

nine_zeros 6y ago
> Free market economics, low taxation, user pays healthcare, restrictive welfare entitlements, restrictive immigration, and no minimum wage. Did you just pull this out of your arse? I don't know if you need training in google fu or just plain ol calling out on bullshit. At least google what they do with healthcare and immigration (for a country smaller than nyc)
- AmericanChopper 6y ago
  I used to live in Singapore. I’m particularly familiar with how they do things. > No minimum wage > As a matter of national policy, MOM does not prescribe minimum wages for all workers in Singapore, whether local or foreign. Whether wages should increase or decrease is best determined by market demand and supply for labour. https://www.mom.gov.sg/faq/work-permit-for-foreign-worker/is-there-a-prescribed-minimum-wage-for-foreign-workers-in-singapore https://www.mom.gov.sg/faq/work-permit-for-foreign-worker/is... > User pays healthcare Government offers a partially subsidised health insurance plan. But you have to apply and pay for it yourself. https://www.sgmoneymatters.com/medishield-life/ https://www.sgmoneymatters.com/medishield-life/ > restrictive welfare entitlements Singapore doesn’t have an unemployment benefit. You can get a few months worth of assistance if you lose your job. The closest it has is ComCare, which is mostly reserved for invalids. https://www.msf.gov.sg/Comcare/Pages/Public-Assistance.aspx https://www.msf.gov.sg/Comcare/Pages/Public-Assistance.aspx > restrictive immigration Singapore immigration policy has always focused on maximizing employment for Singaporeans https://www.aseanbriefing.com/news/singapores-ministry-manpower-revises-rules-hiring-foreign-employees/ https://www.aseanbriefing.com/news/singapores-ministry-manpo... Probably also worth noting, they don’t accept refugees: https://www.refworld.org/pdfid/5a12da0a2.pdf https://www.refworld.org/pdfid/5a12da0a2.pdf > low taxes Singapore is considered a tax haven by many people. https://www.iras.gov.sg/irashome/Individuals/Locals/Working-Out-Your-Taxes/Income-Tax-Rates/ https://www.iras.gov.sg/irashome/Individuals/Locals/Working-... > Free market economics It is considered to have the highest economic freedom in the world https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Index_of_Economic_Freedom https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Index_of_Economic_Freedom Singapore is basically an economic libertarian utopia. It is a case study in the effect of uncompromising free market economics.