7 ms·

> RMS ousted from the FSF Wtf. Looks like I must have been living under a rock! What happened?

wazoox 6y ago
He has been accused of sexual harassment by someone. In the usual "cancel culture" fashion, you're deemed guilty until irrevocably proved innocent, therefore RMS has been ousted from the FSF and the MIT. A proof if you needed one that the "SJW" or "baizuo" culture isn't at all progressive, but a dangerous intolerant bunch more akin to the Khmer Rouge than anything else.
- scaryclam 6y ago
  Sorry, but there's a lot more to it that a simple one-off sexual harassment accusation.
  - notsureaboutpg 6y ago
    There is more to it but it is also a "cancel culture" moment if there ever was one. I think history will look back on his ousting as part of a mass hysteria, but I don't agree with OP about likening it to the Khmer Rouge (messed up, that)
  - codethief 6y ago
    Can you elaborate? At least the ZDNet article you posted doesn't exactly corroborate your statement. (Not taking a stance for/against RMS here – I still don't really understand what happened.)
    - mixmastamyk 6y ago
      See the daring fireball link up thread.
    - dabockster 6y ago
      There were some Tweets by some women AI researchers at MIT about RMS's lewd behavior towards them. The kind of behavior that would have gotten a lesser man burned at the stake (metaphorically, of course).
  - wazoox 6y ago
    Having a semi-private conversation about someone else's deeds can't constitute "a lot more" by any reasonable measure. BTW the whole downvoting crowd only confirms me in my opinions :)
    - runbyfruity 6y ago
      The downvotes could also mean you should do some self-reflection. It's possible you don't realize you're espousing offensive views. And before you go "zomg I've triggered the snowflakes!", there's nothing wrong with holding these views in the abstract, but they do suggest that perhaps these ideas might drive you to very real actions that aren't particularly helpful for society.
      - wazoox 6y ago
        I'm espousing all sort of offensive views. I'm for the end of capitalism, for instance. As for self-reflection, I've been accused of everything, for instance to be an antisemite because I'm espousing the offensive opinion that Israel is an apartheid state, and that BDS is a fine idea I support. I concluded with George Orwell and Noam Chomsky that “Goebbels was in favor of free speech for views he liked. So was Stalin. If you’re really in favor of free speech, then you’re in favor of freedom of speech for precisely the views you despise. Otherwise, you’re not in favor of free speech.” Therefore I conclude that it's of the utmost importance to be able to express despicable, obnoxious, offensive views. That doesn't mean that I condone all of these views. OTOH, all really important views are necessarily offensive to someone, else they're probably benign and of little significance, if any. I understand that RMS is probably an obnoxious jerk. However, it's in a large part because he is an obnoxious, insensitive jerk that he's been so adamant on his principles, and I deem this is a key reason why he had a significant influence in technology and on the world at large.
    - stjohnswarts 6y ago
      I support you speaking your mind, but don't agree with it. Carry on.
      - 6y ago
scaryclam 6y ago
Basically, he made some poor decisions on various things. Not only sexual harassment, but also defending others who are accused of some not very nice things and has a history of misogynistic comments and behaviors. Here's an article giving more detail on a few of the issues surrounding the resignation so you can draw your own conclusions: https://www.zdnet.com/article/richard-m-stallman-resigns-from-free-software-foundation/ https://www.zdnet.com/article/richard-m-stallman-resigns-fro...
- wazoox 6y ago
  Once someone has been condemned by the crowd (in this case, Minsky), you must cry with the pack (even in private or semi-public conversations) or share their fate. You have absolutely no right to ponder, ask for more evidence or whatever. Obey the Party Line or be sentenced. Then they basically admit in the article that truth or justice carry no weight whatsoever, but that "good PR" and social media trends are what count. Revolting. It's disgusting beyond any measure.
  - Iolaum 6y ago
    RMS has been doing things that people in the open source community disagreed with for a long time. His latest offence also had the effect of bringing all/many_of those previous slights to the attention of the "crowd" (because social media) and that amplified the message of criticism against him.
    - wazoox 6y ago
      I think that his "latest offences" were of a particularly laden political tone (or could be painted as such), while eating stuff from his toenails publicly and other eccentricities passed as innocuous, though actually annoying the hell out of corporate types and other people interested in power, money, shiny PR and other matters that RMS always more or less considered with relative contempt. It's significant that you talk of "the open source community". I'm not of "the open source community" (less than ever, in fact), I'm firmly in the "Free software community" and an FSF member for 20 years. I don't remember ever having a disagreement with RMS on any important matter.
im3w1l 6y ago
He was politically outspoken, like he has always been. But being outspoken is not acceptable in modern times. He said it was likely that some women of Epstein's presented as entirely willing to Marvin Minsky. This was twisted by the press into him saying they were entirely willing. For this he was ousted.
- wazoox 6y ago
  And some women were offended or something. This constitutes a major crime, nowadays. Bombing brown people half-across the world? No big deal. Using slave child labour to mine rare earths for your iGadget? who cares. Helping out fascists to topple a democratically elect government in Latin America? yawn. Hurting the feelings of some pampered students? Beware, you monster!
  - runbyfruity 6y ago
    Pointing out that RMS harassed women doesn't also mean that those other things aren't bad, and that line of reasoning along with your flippant remarks about very real problems facing women in tech show your true colors.
    - wazoox 6y ago
      I didn't emit any remark about the obvious rampant misogyny in tech. You're jumping to completely unwarranted conclusions.
      - saagarjha 6y ago
        I think starting off your comment the way you did made the conclusion fairly natural.
        wazoox 6y ago
        I think that "being offended" isn't a serious matter, or an actual political stance. That's the crux of my distaste of SJW, intersectionality, and victimhood culture. One of my "offensive opinions", if you wish. That doesn't mean that I think that sexism, racism, homophobia, etc aren't serious matters. On the contrary.
rrss 6y ago
https://daringfireball.net/2019/09/richard_stallmans_disgrace https://daringfireball.net/2019/09/richard_stallmans_disgrac...
- AdamJacobMuller 6y ago
  John Gruber just rubs me so completely the wrong way now. I'm not really sure why but he seems incredibly petty and nit-picky in the past several years and I actively avoid reading things he's writing. It's a stark change from someone whom I used to read religiously and strongly considered his every word, especially on Apple-related topics. In part of this[1] he's nit-picking RMS for choosing to spend time laying out his personal preferences in a rider for speeches, and, none of them are really outlandish beyond what you expect for a privacy-focused free-speech-free-software person. I don't chose to live my life as RMS does, but, I won't begrudge him his choices. The worst thing he could pick on is "I don't want breakfast, please don't ask." He just comes across to me as petty and sanctimonious, in this, and in general recently. I'm not sure which one of us has changed. Also some of his choices are quite humble and heartening and make me like RMS quite a bit more. "I don't like hotels, I would prefer to stay in someone's home, even if I'm sleeping on a couch, so I can socialize with them." He seems like a nice enough guy. [1] https://daringfireball.net/linked/2011/10/26/rms https://daringfireball.net/linked/2011/10/26/rms
stjohnswarts 6y ago
The groupthink in current mainstream media wouldn't allow it so they launched a smear campaign to get him kicked out and the board that controls FSF probably convinced him to move on. It's not okay speak against the radical left these days, if you do you're a nazi gun toting alt right person. Whereas I'm actually none of the above and a moderate democrat.
snvzz 6y ago
Character assassination happened: https://sterling-archermedes.github.io/ https://sterling-archermedes.github.io/
dang 6y ago
We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24383640 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24383640.

He has been accused of sexual harassment by someone. In the usual "cancel culture" fashion, you're deemed guilty until irrevocably proved innocent, therefore RMS has been ousted from the FSF and the MIT. A proof if you needed one that the "SJW" or "baizuo" culture isn't at all progressive, but a dangerous intolerant bunch more akin to the Khmer Rouge than anything else.

scaryclam 6y ago
Sorry, but there's a lot more to it that a simple one-off sexual harassment accusation.
- notsureaboutpg 6y ago
  There is more to it but it is also a "cancel culture" moment if there ever was one. I think history will look back on his ousting as part of a mass hysteria, but I don't agree with OP about likening it to the Khmer Rouge (messed up, that)
- codethief 6y ago
  Can you elaborate? At least the ZDNet article you posted doesn't exactly corroborate your statement. (Not taking a stance for/against RMS here – I still don't really understand what happened.)
  - mixmastamyk 6y ago
    See the daring fireball link up thread.
  - dabockster 6y ago
    There were some Tweets by some women AI researchers at MIT about RMS's lewd behavior towards them. The kind of behavior that would have gotten a lesser man burned at the stake (metaphorically, of course).
- wazoox 6y ago
  Having a semi-private conversation about someone else's deeds can't constitute "a lot more" by any reasonable measure. BTW the whole downvoting crowd only confirms me in my opinions :)
  - runbyfruity 6y ago
    The downvotes could also mean you should do some self-reflection. It's possible you don't realize you're espousing offensive views. And before you go "zomg I've triggered the snowflakes!", there's nothing wrong with holding these views in the abstract, but they do suggest that perhaps these ideas might drive you to very real actions that aren't particularly helpful for society.
    - wazoox 6y ago
      I'm espousing all sort of offensive views. I'm for the end of capitalism, for instance. As for self-reflection, I've been accused of everything, for instance to be an antisemite because I'm espousing the offensive opinion that Israel is an apartheid state, and that BDS is a fine idea I support. I concluded with George Orwell and Noam Chomsky that “Goebbels was in favor of free speech for views he liked. So was Stalin. If you’re really in favor of free speech, then you’re in favor of freedom of speech for precisely the views you despise. Otherwise, you’re not in favor of free speech.” Therefore I conclude that it's of the utmost importance to be able to express despicable, obnoxious, offensive views. That doesn't mean that I condone all of these views. OTOH, all really important views are necessarily offensive to someone, else they're probably benign and of little significance, if any. I understand that RMS is probably an obnoxious jerk. However, it's in a large part because he is an obnoxious, insensitive jerk that he's been so adamant on his principles, and I deem this is a key reason why he had a significant influence in technology and on the world at large.
  - stjohnswarts 6y ago
    I support you speaking your mind, but don't agree with it. Carry on.
    - 6y ago

scaryclam 6y ago

Basically, he made some poor decisions on various things. Not only sexual harassment, but also defending others who are accused of some not very nice things and has a history of misogynistic comments and behaviors. Here's an article giving more detail on a few of the issues surrounding the resignation so you can draw your own conclusions: https://www.zdnet.com/article/richard-m-stallman-resigns-from-free-software-foundation/ https://www.zdnet.com/article/richard-m-stallman-resigns-fro...

wazoox 6y ago
Once someone has been condemned by the crowd (in this case, Minsky), you must cry with the pack (even in private or semi-public conversations) or share their fate. You have absolutely no right to ponder, ask for more evidence or whatever. Obey the Party Line or be sentenced. Then they basically admit in the article that truth or justice carry no weight whatsoever, but that "good PR" and social media trends are what count. Revolting. It's disgusting beyond any measure.
- Iolaum 6y ago
  RMS has been doing things that people in the open source community disagreed with for a long time. His latest offence also had the effect of bringing all/many_of those previous slights to the attention of the "crowd" (because social media) and that amplified the message of criticism against him.
  - wazoox 6y ago
    I think that his "latest offences" were of a particularly laden political tone (or could be painted as such), while eating stuff from his toenails publicly and other eccentricities passed as innocuous, though actually annoying the hell out of corporate types and other people interested in power, money, shiny PR and other matters that RMS always more or less considered with relative contempt. It's significant that you talk of "the open source community". I'm not of "the open source community" (less than ever, in fact), I'm firmly in the "Free software community" and an FSF member for 20 years. I don't remember ever having a disagreement with RMS on any important matter.

im3w1l 6y ago

He was politically outspoken, like he has always been. But being outspoken is not acceptable in modern times. He said it was likely that some women of Epstein's presented as entirely willing to Marvin Minsky. This was twisted by the press into him saying they were entirely willing. For this he was ousted.

wazoox 6y ago
And some women were offended or something. This constitutes a major crime, nowadays. Bombing brown people half-across the world? No big deal. Using slave child labour to mine rare earths for your iGadget? who cares. Helping out fascists to topple a democratically elect government in Latin America? yawn. Hurting the feelings of some pampered students? Beware, you monster!
- runbyfruity 6y ago
  Pointing out that RMS harassed women doesn't also mean that those other things aren't bad, and that line of reasoning along with your flippant remarks about very real problems facing women in tech show your true colors.
  - wazoox 6y ago
    I didn't emit any remark about the obvious rampant misogyny in tech. You're jumping to completely unwarranted conclusions.
    - saagarjha 6y ago
      I think starting off your comment the way you did made the conclusion fairly natural.
      - wazoox 6y ago
        I think that "being offended" isn't a serious matter, or an actual political stance. That's the crux of my distaste of SJW, intersectionality, and victimhood culture. One of my "offensive opinions", if you wish. That doesn't mean that I think that sexism, racism, homophobia, etc aren't serious matters. On the contrary.

rrss 6y ago

https://daringfireball.net/2019/09/richard_stallmans_disgrace https://daringfireball.net/2019/09/richard_stallmans_disgrac...

AdamJacobMuller 6y ago
John Gruber just rubs me so completely the wrong way now. I'm not really sure why but he seems incredibly petty and nit-picky in the past several years and I actively avoid reading things he's writing. It's a stark change from someone whom I used to read religiously and strongly considered his every word, especially on Apple-related topics. In part of this[1] he's nit-picking RMS for choosing to spend time laying out his personal preferences in a rider for speeches, and, none of them are really outlandish beyond what you expect for a privacy-focused free-speech-free-software person. I don't chose to live my life as RMS does, but, I won't begrudge him his choices. The worst thing he could pick on is "I don't want breakfast, please don't ask." He just comes across to me as petty and sanctimonious, in this, and in general recently. I'm not sure which one of us has changed. Also some of his choices are quite humble and heartening and make me like RMS quite a bit more. "I don't like hotels, I would prefer to stay in someone's home, even if I'm sleeping on a couch, so I can socialize with them." He seems like a nice enough guy. [1] https://daringfireball.net/linked/2011/10/26/rms https://daringfireball.net/linked/2011/10/26/rms

stjohnswarts 6y ago

The groupthink in current mainstream media wouldn't allow it so they launched a smear campaign to get him kicked out and the board that controls FSF probably convinced him to move on. It's not okay speak against the radical left these days, if you do you're a nazi gun toting alt right person. Whereas I'm actually none of the above and a moderate democrat.

snvzz 6y ago

Character assassination happened: https://sterling-archermedes.github.io/ https://sterling-archermedes.github.io/

dang 6y ago

We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24383640 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24383640.