4 ms·

Remember that snaps solve the problem of third parties wanting to ship software directly to users. If you don't want to consume such software, then you don't n

by rlpb 6y ago

Remember that snaps solve the problem of third parties wanting to ship software directly to users. If you don't want to consume such software, then you don't need to use snaps, and don't need to care that Ubuntu 20.04 supports snaps. The system works perfectly well without them. Snaps aren't being "forced". If you insist on using curl piped to sh to install third party software, you can still do that, or use any other third party mechanism in between. Too often snap critics conflate the installation of the third party software use case with the distribution itself. Ubuntu 20.04 itself is based on debs, not snaps, and the distribution itself continues to work using apt as always. Claiming that installing another distribution to "solve" this nonexistent problem is disingenuous.

KozmoNau7 6y ago
That is incorrect. In 20.04, among others the Chromium package is a blank .deb file that installs a snap package instead. You can't choose to install the .deb version instead, unless you add an unofficial repo. That is absolutely forcing snap on people, since Chromium was a standard .dep package in the previous releases. And it's not the only package where the transition to snap is forced.
- rlpb 6y ago
  Chromium is not packaged using debs in Ubuntu. Firefox is the default supported browser, as it has been for many years, and that works perfectly fine as a deb. The reason the Chromium deb package pulls in a snap is so that users upgrading from 18.04 or 19.10 continue to get a working Chromium. If you have disabled snaps, then apt will not pull in the Chromium snap. > That is absolutely forcing snap on people, since Chromium was a standard .dep package in the previous release. It really isn't. The default web browser works fine and isn't a snap. Chromium has never been installed by default on Ubuntu.
  - simion314 6y ago
    This makes perfect sense, not sure why I only see this explained until now and only the stupid complains about Chromium.
  - KozmoNau7 6y ago
    A lot of people prefer using Chromium. In previous versions, it was a standard .deb package. The subterfuge pulled by Canonical is that it now looks like a standard .deb package, but all it does is pull in the snap package, with all the attendant mounts, unmovable snap folder in $HOME, and other snap-related issues that standard .deb packages don't have. If you disable snaps, you cannot install Chromium on 20.04, unless you use an outdated third-party repo.
oefrha 6y ago
Except they’re pushing first party, sometimes core software to snaps. TFA lists Ubuntu Software Center as a victim first and foremost, makes me wonder (guideline-breakingly) if you read TFA. Now, I don’t use Ubuntu Desktop, but even in server space, lxd (again, first party) has been pushed to snap, with the deb package being a mere shim.
- rlpb 6y ago
  The Snap Store is a Snap, yes. That's surely entirely unsurprising?
  - oefrha 6y ago
    It is if you have zero interest in snaps and just want to install good old debs with it.
    - rlpb 6y ago
      Don't use it then? The apt CLI, GNOME Software and Synaptic are all available as debs.
      - codethief 6y ago
        What do you do if you've been using Chromium as your default browser, though? (…and are concerned about privacy, so you don't want to install Chrome.) Yes, as you say elsewhere, Chromium is not the default browser on Ubuntu. But what do defaults mean, anyway? Ubuntu switches the default music player every other year, too, and at some point people will just stick to the app they like better. I had always been under the impression that distribution defaults are suggestions for novice users. We've never had a situation before where a distribution like Ubuntu didn't properly support common alternatives to the default app.
    - jcastro 6y ago
      Why would you use the snap gui to install debs? Use the normal software center thing.
CarelessExpert 6y ago
Good to see people are downvoting instead of replying and explaining the disagreement. I happen to agree with you completely, and I say that as a 25 year veteran in the Linux world. The open source world goes through things like this periodically. But then the change passes and we all get used to it and the next controversy comes along.
psanford 6y ago
> Ubuntu 20.04 itself is based on debs, not snaps This just isn't true. Its clear that Ubuntu is moving away from debs and to snaps. LXD is software primarily developed by Canonical and is only distributed as a Snap. Look at Ubuntu Core, the IoT distro by Canonical that doesn't use debian packages at all, it just uses snaps.
- rlpb 6y ago
  > This just isn't true. Its clear that Ubuntu is moving away from debs and to snaps. It's clear that Ubuntu is promoting snaps where they make sense. That means for third party software distribution, software that is "rolling release" upstream only, and software whose new versions have to be made available to all supported previous releases at once. There is no evidence that snaps are being promoted outside these specific use cases, none of which fitted proper deb-based packaging anyway. > LXD is software primarily developed by Canonical and is only distributed as a Snap. LXD is the type of thing where users expect the latest version on the oldest still supported LTS release. It's not practical to backport as a deb. That's why it's a snap. > Look at Ubuntu Core, the IoT distro by Canonical that doesn't use debian packages at all, it just uses snaps. Well, yes. That an entirely different platform, for when the system is updated as a read-only image, which makes sense for appliances and which apt cannot support. It's got nothing to do with Ubuntu the general purpose OS except that snaps are supported on both platforms.
  - psanford 6y ago
    Your argument doesn't hold much water as Debian is able to package the same software in .debs. If you just look at the list of canonical owned snaps it becomes clear that every release they move more packages from being debs to being snaps. If the snap store was just for third parties no one would care.
nemetroid 6y ago
> Too often snap critics conflate the installation of the third party software use case with the distribution itself. I don't think it's accurate to say that it's the desire to install rolling-released third party software in itself that's the problem. It's the mismatch between the distribution's and the third party software's release cycles that make this a problem, and using a distribution that more closely resembles the software's release cycle does solve this problem without needing Snap.

by rlpb 6y ago

KozmoNau7 6y ago

That is incorrect. In 20.04, among others the Chromium package is a blank .deb file that installs a snap package instead. You can't choose to install the .deb version instead, unless you add an unofficial repo. That is absolutely forcing snap on people, since Chromium was a standard .dep package in the previous releases. And it's not the only package where the transition to snap is forced.

rlpb 6y ago
Chromium is not packaged using debs in Ubuntu. Firefox is the default supported browser, as it has been for many years, and that works perfectly fine as a deb. The reason the Chromium deb package pulls in a snap is so that users upgrading from 18.04 or 19.10 continue to get a working Chromium. If you have disabled snaps, then apt will not pull in the Chromium snap. > That is absolutely forcing snap on people, since Chromium was a standard .dep package in the previous release. It really isn't. The default web browser works fine and isn't a snap. Chromium has never been installed by default on Ubuntu.
- simion314 6y ago
  This makes perfect sense, not sure why I only see this explained until now and only the stupid complains about Chromium.
- KozmoNau7 6y ago
  A lot of people prefer using Chromium. In previous versions, it was a standard .deb package. The subterfuge pulled by Canonical is that it now looks like a standard .deb package, but all it does is pull in the snap package, with all the attendant mounts, unmovable snap folder in $HOME, and other snap-related issues that standard .deb packages don't have. If you disable snaps, you cannot install Chromium on 20.04, unless you use an outdated third-party repo.

oefrha 6y ago

Except they’re pushing first party, sometimes core software to snaps. TFA lists Ubuntu Software Center as a victim first and foremost, makes me wonder (guideline-breakingly) if you read TFA. Now, I don’t use Ubuntu Desktop, but even in server space, lxd (again, first party) has been pushed to snap, with the deb package being a mere shim.

rlpb 6y ago
The Snap Store is a Snap, yes. That's surely entirely unsurprising?
- oefrha 6y ago
  It is if you have zero interest in snaps and just want to install good old debs with it.
  - rlpb 6y ago
    Don't use it then? The apt CLI, GNOME Software and Synaptic are all available as debs.
    - codethief 6y ago
      What do you do if you've been using Chromium as your default browser, though? (…and are concerned about privacy, so you don't want to install Chrome.) Yes, as you say elsewhere, Chromium is not the default browser on Ubuntu. But what do defaults mean, anyway? Ubuntu switches the default music player every other year, too, and at some point people will just stick to the app they like better. I had always been under the impression that distribution defaults are suggestions for novice users. We've never had a situation before where a distribution like Ubuntu didn't properly support common alternatives to the default app.
  - jcastro 6y ago
    Why would you use the snap gui to install debs? Use the normal software center thing.

CarelessExpert 6y ago

Good to see people are downvoting instead of replying and explaining the disagreement. I happen to agree with you completely, and I say that as a 25 year veteran in the Linux world. The open source world goes through things like this periodically. But then the change passes and we all get used to it and the next controversy comes along.

psanford 6y ago

> Ubuntu 20.04 itself is based on debs, not snaps This just isn't true. Its clear that Ubuntu is moving away from debs and to snaps. LXD is software primarily developed by Canonical and is only distributed as a Snap. Look at Ubuntu Core, the IoT distro by Canonical that doesn't use debian packages at all, it just uses snaps.

rlpb 6y ago
> This just isn't true. Its clear that Ubuntu is moving away from debs and to snaps. It's clear that Ubuntu is promoting snaps where they make sense. That means for third party software distribution, software that is "rolling release" upstream only, and software whose new versions have to be made available to all supported previous releases at once. There is no evidence that snaps are being promoted outside these specific use cases, none of which fitted proper deb-based packaging anyway. > LXD is software primarily developed by Canonical and is only distributed as a Snap. LXD is the type of thing where users expect the latest version on the oldest still supported LTS release. It's not practical to backport as a deb. That's why it's a snap. > Look at Ubuntu Core, the IoT distro by Canonical that doesn't use debian packages at all, it just uses snaps. Well, yes. That an entirely different platform, for when the system is updated as a read-only image, which makes sense for appliances and which apt cannot support. It's got nothing to do with Ubuntu the general purpose OS except that snaps are supported on both platforms.
- psanford 6y ago
  Your argument doesn't hold much water as Debian is able to package the same software in .debs. If you just look at the list of canonical owned snaps it becomes clear that every release they move more packages from being debs to being snaps. If the snap store was just for third parties no one would care.

nemetroid 6y ago

> Too often snap critics conflate the installation of the third party software use case with the distribution itself. I don't think it's accurate to say that it's the desire to install rolling-released third party software in itself that's the problem. It's the mismatch between the distribution's and the third party software's release cycles that make this a problem, and using a distribution that more closely resembles the software's release cycle does solve this problem without needing Snap.