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US, Taiwan seek 'like-minded' democracies in supply chain shift from China
- sm4rk0 6y agoThey'll have hard time doing so as their time has passed. They should evolve or they will be obsoleted like dinosaurs.
- sm4rk0 6y agoBetter get out of the comfort zone: https://fort-russ.com/2016/03/dugin-what-is-wrong-with-europe/ https://fort-russ.com/2016/03/dugin-what-is-wrong-with-europ... Denial of reality and downvoting the comments won't change anything.
- throwaway4good 6y agoBut it is clearly not happening - is it? China is the only major economy that is projected to grow this year. And Corona-virus crisis is under control there whereas in eg. India it is still escalating.
- throwaway1777 6y agoIs this propaganda? Yes, production is shifting to Taiwan and other countries from China. No, it won’t happen overnight, it’ll only happen when it needs to. And China may still grow overall, but companies are leaving too and eventually the trend could overtake the growth.
- throwaway4good 6y agoNo doubt that the US administration wants this. But given how 2020 has unfolded. If I were a business owner and I had the option of building a factory in say India or China; then China surely has proven more stable. Of course could I place the factory in Spain or Japan for the same cost, I would do so. But that has always been the case.
- Temasik 6y agohow do i get paid shilling china?
- bawolff 6y agoProbably be easier for usa to do that if they didn't keep starting random trade wars with other democracies.
- KorematsuFred 6y ago"Like minded" probably means either "white" or "vassal" states of USA. USA had a great opportunity to play a constructive role in Latin American and use their vast manpower for its benefit while benefiting those countries as well. Mexico, Brazil could have done what China did. However USA constantly tried to destabilize its neighbors and focused on playing petty games instead of constructive allies.
- wahern 6y agoAs of 2019 Mexico had about the same per capita GDP as China, and Brazil was only slightly behind. Brazil was ahead of both but the past 5 years have been rough. See https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.CD?locations=BR-CN-MX https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.CD?location... China does have faster growth. Only time will tell if that continues.
- vkou 6y agoIt's possible that we may have been able to find some in Central and South America, if they weren't squeezed by the war on drugs on one end, and state-actor-sponsored regime changes on the other. But one does reap what one sows.
- snicky 6y agoI didn't want to say that, but for a long time I already have a feeling that there are users here in the HN community whose sole purpose is to deny any kind of criticism against China or putting it in a bad light. Almost like paid trolls, I would say. I expect lots of this kind of comments in this thread too.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- Etheryte 6y agoIf anything, it simply shows that the site is large enough to be caught on their radar. It's more or less constant background noise on any big platform these days, but it is very helpful to both be mindful of it and highlight it for others who might not be paying attention otherwise. I'm not entirely sure what the right thing to do here is, though. Clearly these people have an agenda and they're working hard at pushing it, at the same time, they're free to use the site just like anyone else. Is it bad when you're paid to do it? Then what about people promoting their products, releases etc? I wholeheartedly agree that it's not a good thing, but I'm struggling to find a way to conceptually approach it. At the end of the day, it does shine through that HN attracts its best when it's discussing something technical, not political.
- mdorazio 6y agoAt a minimum there's a downvote brigade if you say anything negative about China in comments. I feel like it picked up significantly last year.
- lazyeye 6y agoIve noticed this too. And its not just Hacker News. On any forum where the subject of China comes up you'll see a flood of pro-China comments regardless of the content. If they can't argue their case convincingly they'll confuse, divert and deflect to derail the conversations as a fallback. Something along the lines discussed here:- https://safenetforum.org/t/the-gentleperson-s-guide-to-forum-spies/30059 https://safenetforum.org/t/the-gentleperson-s-guide-to-forum... Im almost certain that all forums of any size are monitored and email notifications go out so the ideological warriors can go to work.
- bosswipe 6y agoRemember when the US government successfully formed a partenrship agreement with 13 countries called the TPP that would have been a strong counter to China's growing influence but Trump threw it in the trash as soon as he got into office. Making us weaker just for political purposes.
- ahartmetz 6y agoTPP seemed like a triumph of corporatism, though. A way to push legislation down our throats that no one wanted except large companies. Trump killed it for petty reasons, but well, "no one except large companies" is a very large group, and Trump and his clientele are part of it.
- bawolff 6y agoIsn't that how international trade agreements work generally? You sacrafice local autonomy and independence in the hope for better economic outcomes.
- ahartmetz 6y agoCheck out #1, #5 and #8 (some of the others are pretty dumb) here and tell me that it's not a win of corporations against the rest of the world: https://inthesetimes.com/article/tpp-free-trade-globalization-obama https://inthesetimes.com/article/tpp-free-trade-globalizatio...
- Wolfenstein98k 6y agoThe comments are curiously defensive of China and opposed to the West, as they always are when China is the topic. And only China. Hmm.
- ghostDancer 6y agoThe same happens when some news is criticizing Israel.I have seen news in here flagged to make them disappear from the front page and when they are unmarked the get buried among other news out of the front page. Both governments have a an army of public opinion controllers.
- dang 6y agohttps://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comment&storyText=false&prefix=true&page=0&query=astroturf%20by:dang https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comme...
- ghostDancer 6y agoSorry if it sounded like that, just wanted to point out that is nothing new and not surprising. China is doing it, Israel is doing it and probably other countries too. Not big news.
- dang 6y agoThat's really not true at all. I think you might be running into the notice-dislike bias: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sort=byDate&type=comment&query=notice%20dislike%20by:dang https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sor.... People with opposing views derive opposite conclusions from exactly the same data.
- logotype 6y agoDon’t buy things from China. Vote with your wallet. I’ve personally done this for the past year or two. At least to the extent that it is possible. Would love to see a USA made mobile phone though.
- 29athrowaway 6y agoFor many products it is impossible to find an alternative not made in China.
- smsm42 6y agoIt may not be easy to know where the product is made, especially if you're buying online. Many online stores do not publish country of origin.
- Dig1t 6y agoI've been really wanting to find something to help make this easier to do for the longest time. Its so hard nowadays to find a wide array of goods made in the US. I would love an Amazon-quality website that only sells things made in the US, or better yet, a "country of origin" label on Amazon itself. I would GLADLY pay more to buy things that are made here, just to support US businesses. However, I usually have to go scouring the comments on product listings looking for any information about where the thing I want to buy was actually made. It sucks..
- Normille 6y agoActually. I avoid buying products made in the USA if I possibly can. I don't like supporting aggressive militaristic regimes. https://i.imgur.com/Lt5akKR.png https://i.imgur.com/Lt5akKR.png [Feel free to swap North Korea for China in that graphic. The end result is pretty much the same.]
- beloch 6y agoAnything connected to the Trump administration is going look pretty dumb by default to most, and the politics of the U.S.-China spat are certainly a mess. However, there are compelling economic reasons for manufacturers to move operations to new places (Note: Likely not the U.S.). Just for one example, compare the population age pyramid of China[1] to that of India[2]. The way in which China's long standing (but now retired) one-child policy has shaped their population pyramid into a top-heavy column is truly unreal. They have a huge cohort entering retirement age and another big cohort entering their late 30's where they're experienced rather than cheap workers. If you want young, cheap labour in China, the supply is about to start contracting Meanwhile India's age pyramid really is a pyramid. As China's cheap labour pool shrinks, India's is set to grow massively. Factory wages in India are currently about one fifth of China's too. If you're building a shiny new iPhone factory that will need a multitude of the cheapest human hands money can hire, they're not in China anymore. The gap is going to widen substantially over the next decade or so too. It will take a lot to break up existing supply chains and pry them out of China, but the economic incentives exist today and will become more irresistible each passing year. Automation is, of course, a wild-card, but what might work to keep factories in China will work to bring them back to places like the U.S.. Automation works in any country, but demographics no longer favour China when it comes to the one thing that has attracted manufacturers looking to make things as cheaply as possible: cheap labour. This may be why we've seen China becoming increasingly aggressive over the last few years. Their economic base is peaking and decline is in sight. Now is the time to grab as much power, territory, and influence as possible and try to solidify it before that economic base melts away. [1]https://www.populationpyramid.net/china/2019/ https://www.populationpyramid.net/china/2019/ [2]https://www.populationpyramid.net/india/2019/ https://www.populationpyramid.net/india/2019/
- wahern 6y agoDecoupling our economies, if successful (a big if), is a recipe for war. Unfortunately, the last few remaining adults interested in and capable of doing the hard work of political and economic diplomacy, and domestic industrial policy left in 2016. Most had retired already as they were old enough to have lived through either WWII or the Korean War and thus knew what the stakes were. Taking their ball and going home was never an option for them no matter how much the opponent cheated--the task at hand was constant engagement, which however difficult and seemingly pointless was preferable to the alternative.
- learc83 6y agoI don’t know. Our economy was almost completely decoupled from the Soviet Union and that never turned into a shooting war. What’s different this time that is going to overcome MAD and allow for a conventional war?
- NhanH 6y agoEven at its peak, USSR economy was only almost as big as the US (half the size, irrc). China is almost certainly going to surpass the US in term of total economy.
- someperson 6y agoChina is at or near its 21st century peak (getting old before it gets rich), and the US has a massive number of strong friends and allies, including a European Union increasingly wary of China. It's a different Cold War from the USSR, but democracy may still again prevail against a totalitarianism.
- solarkraft 6y agoThe EU is also increasingly wary of the US.
- learc83 6y ago
- rjzzleep 6y agoI don't see how Taiwan and the US are like-minded at all. Taiwan is a democratic country with a decently levelheaded approach and fantastic manufacturing that led to a good coronavirus approach. And the US is run by a wannabe dictator, authoritarian loving, narcissist that was obviously elected by a significant portion of the US population and that has a pretty reasonable chance on getting reelected. And yes, while the mail-in voting mess might have an impact on it, it is by far not the only reason. Like-minded democracies might be the European states, but while they actually still have a lot of american products banned for food safety reasons, similar to Taiwan, Taiwan has actually caved to White House pressure on something I would hardly call a trade deal but more a bully forcing its way on country such as Taiwan, South Korea and Japan. It's funny how the US talks about moving manufacturing out of China, when their approach to Taiwan seems to be to bully them to build manufacturing plants in the US.
- xenihn 6y ago>I don't see how Taiwan and the US are like-minded at all. We can start with a shared adversary. >It's funny how the US talks about moving manufacturing out of China, when their approach to Taiwan seems to be to bully them to build manufacturing plants in the US. Honestly, I think the long-term plan here is relocating as much of Taiwan to the US as possible so that there's not that much left for the PRC to take in an invasion/annexation. That means everything short of actual physical territory, from people (scientific & industrial expertise) to patents, materiel, and industrial capacity. Denying valuable personnel and equipment to the PRC could potentially be as significant as the advantage that the US gained over the Soviet Union from Operation Paperclip, where the US got the "best and brightest" Nazi scientists, and the Soviet Union got the leftovers.
- legulere 6y agoThe United States‘ grip on the world is starting to get much looser. A strong China is seen as the reason, but there are many more. The US is trying to build up an alliance against China, but I guess a lot of countries will want to stay neutral in that conflict. The Chinese government is doing horrible atrocities, but the US also isn’t the paragon it portrays itself to be.
- 01100011 6y agoThe US has a long history of hypocrisy and has its share of shameful actions, but equating it to China is just ludicrous. That said, there a lot of countries that have their own issues with authoritarianism, persecution of minorities, privacy violations, etc and they have a partner in China that is willing to look the other way for profit. It's going to be difficult for an increasingly weak US to force those countries to isolate a cheap source of goods to placate their masses.
- legulere 6y agoIt was not my goal to equate the two - I’m not a native speaker so maybe I expressed myself imprecise. America being the good and leading the fight against evil was always just a story told to the masses. In reality you were gaining a lot from aligning to one of the blocs in the Cold War and a lot of countries had common enemies with the US. All this is missing now. Already with the Iraq war unanimous support by allied countries was not there anymore and with the Trump administration the US stopped to be a reliable partner. I don’t think you can easily say that other countries abandon their willing to try to change China. They just keep on the diplomatic way.
- smsm42 6y agoI'll take "not a paragon" over "puts dissidents and religious minorities into concentration camps, tortures and rapes them, conducts medical experiments on them and harvests their organs".
- synaesthesisx 6y agoSomewhat related - look at the largest companies in Taiwan - a large number of them are in the advanced electronics manufacturing space (Pegatron and TSMC for instance). TSMC - Taiwan Semiconductor Manufacturing is arguably one of the most important companies in the world, manufacturing chips for Apple, Nvidia, AMD, Qualcomm and many more. The barrier to entry for semiconductor fabrication is so ridiculously high, not even Apple owns its own foundries. Intel has been struggling with 7nm processes (now delayed), while TSMC is already churning out chips using the newer EUV 5nm process for Apple’s upcoming ARM devices (including some iMac and Macbook models). The US recently struck a deal with TSMC, pressuring it to drop one of its largest Chinese customers (Huawei) in return for opening an advanced foundry in the US (a $12B dollar project with enormous tax breaks for TSMC). Due to its critical positioning in advanced electronics, I genuinely believe the US would get involved if China were to “mess with” Taiwan. A sobering realization is the increasing significance yet fragility of the global technology supply chain - something the pandemic recently exposed. There are geopolitical risks to the United States having a dependency on other nations for something as critical as semiconductors. It’s increasingly becoming a matter of national security. https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/19/business/economy/china-taiwan-huawei-tsmc.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/19/business/economy/china-ta...
- peteretep 6y agoI’d like to see the US lean heavily into this and cut out any country that doesn’t formally recognize Taiwan as an independent country too.
- v-yadli 6y agoTo some deleted comment -- I believe there are many Chinese people, visiting HN everyday to discover and share cool stuff, and look forward to conversations that are intellectually beneficial to the participants. If anything, I hope I'm one of these good people, not a troll. When the situation started to get tight, the meaning of word "we" here is shifting to "we Americans", but you see, unless HN put up a rule to block Chinese users, they will be here. Still looking for fun stuff, but end up seeing the theme turning to "tension", "conflict". They think differently. Some views may seem unfair, or don't make sense to them. They usually just keep quiet, hide the entries and move on. But sometimes it gets too annoying, so they'll also raise a few points. It is you who thinks defending China is not ok. So in converse, there will be people who think it is. It doesn't make one troll because she's not speaking in your favor. I thought this was all fine? Can we just, sit down and compute?
- quantaum_dot 6y agoLike-minded = being a puppet of the US