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Facebook halts Oculus Quest sales in Germany amid privacy concerns

169 points by kerng 6y ago

mr_blobby 6y ago
I like the way they suspended sales only in Germany just to get good boy points from the German authorities.
- drdrey 6y ago
  A more cynical view would be that it is to foster resentment from potential buyers against the regulatory authorities, "see what they made us do"
  - watt 6y ago
    You think we are bootlickers like that, in Germany? You are mistaken.
    - mellow2020 6y ago
      Well, there's any kind of person anywhere, anyway. I think it's not wrong to be pre-emptively wary of that (and prepare arguments for it), considering the way F.U.D. about "cookie banners" [1] got many people worked up against a supposedly useless and clueless law that (again, supposedly) "forces" sites to show such banners -- because their desire to track, which is the first link in this causal chain, is being ignored or assumed as given and benign. [1] banners sites put up because they would prefer to track everyone on the first visit, rather than having an opt-in link somewhere in the footer for example.
  - IfOnlyYouKnew 6y ago
    That's sort of reminiscent of the British alt-right's idea that the German car industry would be running to Merkel demanding her to pressure the EU into giving them a sweetheart deal. As it turns out (or, more accurately: as people with a clue foretold from the beginning), this overestimated the willing ness of car executives to prioritise shareholder value at the expense of all else, the car industry's lobbying power, and Merkel's power in the EU. Here, I'd similarly predict that Facebook is going to end up with most of the blame. People aren't entirely clueless, GDPR has quite a bit of support, and Facebook is only slightly above soggy bread in popularity. But, in any case, a few thousand gamers, many of them under 18, in one country, wouldn't be able to get a law change. The EU also doesn't usually make small adjustments by passing new legislation as many other parliaments do. Instead, they do one huge thing like GDPR every decade or so (per sector).
bambax 6y ago
I was kind of tempted to buy an Oculus headset because a friend of mine had good things to say about it. But the coupling requirement has made buying it impossible, as I don't have, never had, and will never have a Facebook account. One less gadget to worry about.
- sneak 6y ago
  Do you use Instagram or WhatsApp?
  - jodrellblank 6y ago
    Presumably not, because "I don't have, never had, and will never have a Facebook account" covers all things which need a Facebook account, which you know those things do or you wouldn't be mentioning them trying to "gotcha". And if you know it, someone who opposes Facebook that strongly surely also knows it.
    - oauea 6y ago
      WhatsApp doesn't actually require a facebook account, just a phone number. Or at least it used to be that way? Personally I (unfortunately) do use WhatsApp while avoiding all other Facebook products. At least WhatsApp doesn't try to manipulate you and has some form of e2e encryption.
      - Kliment 6y ago
        It does try to manipulate you. It has dark patterns such as nagging for phonebook access, and if you grant and then revoke such access, it hides all your contact names (showing number only) until you re-enable phonebook access. They also store your phonebook contents remotely so they can nag non-users to join and reveal you have become a user to anyone in your phonebook. It's not facebook-level or linkedin-level evil but it's definitely manipulative and nasty. The safe way to use it is on a separate device with no contacts.
    - sneak 6y ago
hubin 6y ago
Currently there is a rumor of a new Quest being released at Facebook Connect September 16. Walmart and Target also might have "leaked" and confirmed the price of the new base 64GB version to be only $299 which makes things interesting. And they haven't really only stopped "selling" them in Germany. They are out of stock almost everywhere, Walmart, B&H, abt and more. Renders of the new "Quest" were also leaked by a twitter account with a great track record when it comes to leaks, the user h0x0d who's account has been closed by twitter :-)
- pantalaimon 6y ago
  I wonder how similar it's going to be to the Snapdragon XR2 reference design.
- nacs 6y ago
  I'm guessing it's also going to have the forced Facebook login so a no-go.
Animats 6y ago
Ah, good, the EU is serious about enforcing antitrust tying rules.
- xxs 6y ago
  This is a GDPR issue not an anti-trust one. Also it should apply not just to Germany. Effectively buying the product cannot be tied to given consent for an unrelated service.
nocturnial 6y ago
The ban isn't about the sale of oculus quest. It's about all oculus devices. Facebook said all oculus devices would need a facebook account. I know this statement is overly broad and not (exactly) true but this is the nightmare scenario oculus users are dreading. Facebook said there were caveats and exceptions. For example, if you bought it before date x then you don't need to create a facebook account, etc... The german privacy commission isn't convinced facebook would/could separate the purely oculus created facebook accounts from their normal accounts. Now it becomes a coupling issue. Apparently it's illegal in Germany and I know this is illegal in Belgium. And if I took a guess it would be illegal in most countries in the EU.
- lmkg 6y ago
  It violates GDPR, so it's illegal in the EU in general (plus UK & Switzerland). The relevant parts are Article 7 Paragraph 4, and Recital 43. In short, consent isn't valid if it's a condition for an unrelated contract. https://gdpr-info.eu/art-7-gdpr/ https://gdpr-info.eu/art-7-gdpr/ https://gdpr-info.eu/recitals/no-43/ https://gdpr-info.eu/recitals/no-43/
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - vinay427 6y ago
    EDIT: Maybe this wasn't clear, but I was replying specifically to this part in the parent comment: "violates GDPR, so it's illegal in the EU in general (plus UK & Switzerland)" as GDPR never specifically applied in Switzerland. I'm not sure it applies to Switzerland. GDPR at least doesn't seem to apply to Swiss companies catering to Swiss residents [1], so I'm not sure it would apply to Facebook/Oculus here. Also, if we're going for completeness EU/EEA is included as far as I know, not just EU. [1] https://www.pwc.ch/en/insights/tax/gdpr-swiss-based-companies.html https://www.pwc.ch/en/insights/tax/gdpr-swiss-based-companie...
    - baby 6y ago
      switzerland is not in EU
mark_l_watson 6y ago
The charge against coupling is valid. I had almost given up ever using FB last year, perhaps logged in briefly once a month. The pan I bought an Oculus Quest (best toy ever!) and I started uploading videos to FB so I could watch them on my Quest, started buying Quest VR experiences, etc. After the purchase, I am logging into FB once a week.
cwhiz 6y ago
It should be considered illegal product bundling for Oculus to require a Facebook account. Facebook has an extreme monopoly on social media and should be shattered into a dozen companies.
dangus 6y ago
I sure wish the US had rules around coupling. I wish this concept went further, too. Hardware products like this should have to demonstrate a good reason to eschew a no-login option.
mrgordon 6y ago
I've been on the fence about buying one and was leaning against it because of this kind of stuff. In the few weeks since I started following it this kind of stuff has already started coming up. No thanks. FB loses a customer again.

169 points by kerng 6y ago

mr_blobby 6y ago

I like the way they suspended sales only in Germany just to get good boy points from the German authorities.

drdrey 6y ago
A more cynical view would be that it is to foster resentment from potential buyers against the regulatory authorities, "see what they made us do"
- watt 6y ago
  You think we are bootlickers like that, in Germany? You are mistaken.
  - mellow2020 6y ago
    Well, there's any kind of person anywhere, anyway. I think it's not wrong to be pre-emptively wary of that (and prepare arguments for it), considering the way F.U.D. about "cookie banners" [1] got many people worked up against a supposedly useless and clueless law that (again, supposedly) "forces" sites to show such banners -- because their desire to track, which is the first link in this causal chain, is being ignored or assumed as given and benign. [1] banners sites put up because they would prefer to track everyone on the first visit, rather than having an opt-in link somewhere in the footer for example.
- IfOnlyYouKnew 6y ago
  That's sort of reminiscent of the British alt-right's idea that the German car industry would be running to Merkel demanding her to pressure the EU into giving them a sweetheart deal. As it turns out (or, more accurately: as people with a clue foretold from the beginning), this overestimated the willing ness of car executives to prioritise shareholder value at the expense of all else, the car industry's lobbying power, and Merkel's power in the EU. Here, I'd similarly predict that Facebook is going to end up with most of the blame. People aren't entirely clueless, GDPR has quite a bit of support, and Facebook is only slightly above soggy bread in popularity. But, in any case, a few thousand gamers, many of them under 18, in one country, wouldn't be able to get a law change. The EU also doesn't usually make small adjustments by passing new legislation as many other parliaments do. Instead, they do one huge thing like GDPR every decade or so (per sector).

bambax 6y ago

I was kind of tempted to buy an Oculus headset because a friend of mine had good things to say about it. But the coupling requirement has made buying it impossible, as I don't have, never had, and will never have a Facebook account. One less gadget to worry about.

sneak 6y ago
Do you use Instagram or WhatsApp?
- jodrellblank 6y ago
  Presumably not, because "I don't have, never had, and will never have a Facebook account" covers all things which need a Facebook account, which you know those things do or you wouldn't be mentioning them trying to "gotcha". And if you know it, someone who opposes Facebook that strongly surely also knows it.
  - oauea 6y ago
    WhatsApp doesn't actually require a facebook account, just a phone number. Or at least it used to be that way? Personally I (unfortunately) do use WhatsApp while avoiding all other Facebook products. At least WhatsApp doesn't try to manipulate you and has some form of e2e encryption.
    - Kliment 6y ago
      It does try to manipulate you. It has dark patterns such as nagging for phonebook access, and if you grant and then revoke such access, it hides all your contact names (showing number only) until you re-enable phonebook access. They also store your phonebook contents remotely so they can nag non-users to join and reveal you have become a user to anyone in your phonebook. It's not facebook-level or linkedin-level evil but it's definitely manipulative and nasty. The safe way to use it is on a separate device with no contacts.
  - sneak 6y ago

hubin 6y ago

Currently there is a rumor of a new Quest being released at Facebook Connect September 16. Walmart and Target also might have "leaked" and confirmed the price of the new base 64GB version to be only $299 which makes things interesting. And they haven't really only stopped "selling" them in Germany. They are out of stock almost everywhere, Walmart, B&H, abt and more. Renders of the new "Quest" were also leaked by a twitter account with a great track record when it comes to leaks, the user h0x0d who's account has been closed by twitter :-)

pantalaimon 6y ago
I wonder how similar it's going to be to the Snapdragon XR2 reference design.
nacs 6y ago
I'm guessing it's also going to have the forced Facebook login so a no-go.

Animats 6y ago

Ah, good, the EU is serious about enforcing antitrust tying rules.

xxs 6y ago
This is a GDPR issue not an anti-trust one. Also it should apply not just to Germany. Effectively buying the product cannot be tied to given consent for an unrelated service.

nocturnial 6y ago

The ban isn't about the sale of oculus quest. It's about all oculus devices. Facebook said all oculus devices would need a facebook account. I know this statement is overly broad and not (exactly) true but this is the nightmare scenario oculus users are dreading. Facebook said there were caveats and exceptions. For example, if you bought it before date x then you don't need to create a facebook account, etc... The german privacy commission isn't convinced facebook would/could separate the purely oculus created facebook accounts from their normal accounts. Now it becomes a coupling issue. Apparently it's illegal in Germany and I know this is illegal in Belgium. And if I took a guess it would be illegal in most countries in the EU.

lmkg 6y ago
It violates GDPR, so it's illegal in the EU in general (plus UK & Switzerland). The relevant parts are Article 7 Paragraph 4, and Recital 43. In short, consent isn't valid if it's a condition for an unrelated contract. https://gdpr-info.eu/art-7-gdpr/ https://gdpr-info.eu/art-7-gdpr/ https://gdpr-info.eu/recitals/no-43/ https://gdpr-info.eu/recitals/no-43/
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- vinay427 6y ago
  EDIT: Maybe this wasn't clear, but I was replying specifically to this part in the parent comment: "violates GDPR, so it's illegal in the EU in general (plus UK & Switzerland)" as GDPR never specifically applied in Switzerland. I'm not sure it applies to Switzerland. GDPR at least doesn't seem to apply to Swiss companies catering to Swiss residents [1], so I'm not sure it would apply to Facebook/Oculus here. Also, if we're going for completeness EU/EEA is included as far as I know, not just EU. [1] https://www.pwc.ch/en/insights/tax/gdpr-swiss-based-companies.html https://www.pwc.ch/en/insights/tax/gdpr-swiss-based-companie...
  - baby 6y ago
    switzerland is not in EU

mark_l_watson 6y ago

The charge against coupling is valid. I had almost given up ever using FB last year, perhaps logged in briefly once a month. The pan I bought an Oculus Quest (best toy ever!) and I started uploading videos to FB so I could watch them on my Quest, started buying Quest VR experiences, etc. After the purchase, I am logging into FB once a week.

cwhiz 6y ago

It should be considered illegal product bundling for Oculus to require a Facebook account. Facebook has an extreme monopoly on social media and should be shattered into a dozen companies.

dangus 6y ago

I sure wish the US had rules around coupling. I wish this concept went further, too. Hardware products like this should have to demonstrate a good reason to eschew a no-login option.

mrgordon 6y ago

I've been on the fence about buying one and was leaning against it because of this kind of stuff. In the few weeks since I started following it this kind of stuff has already started coming up. No thanks. FB loses a customer again.