9 ms·

Islamic State: Giant library of group's online propaganda discovered

80 points by jimmySixDOF 6y ago

jimmySixDOF 6y ago
Anyone can explain this? >"The attraction for jihadists of these platforms is that the developers of these decentralised platforms have no way of acting against content that is stored on user-operated servers or content that's shared across a dispersed network of users, " BBC Monitoring senior jihadi specialist Mina Al-Lami said.
- totetsu 6y ago
  Sounds like the people producing and distributing this media are using self hosted and decentralised social network platforms. The people making these platforms release them for free for anyone to use as the like, so they can't stop jihadists. It doesn't say what they're using, but I doubt it is federated with any non-extremist networks. It's basically an article confused by the fact that most people have been hypnotized into forgetting that anyone can run any software they like on a computer and network it to another computer, without some platform having control over what they do.
  - zimpenfish 6y ago
    > release them for free for anyone to use as the like, so they can't stop jihadists "Lads, lads, the license says Jihadists can't use this?" "Oh, nuts, ok, onto the next one, Malcolm."
  - raxxorrax 6y ago
    FTP servers are terrorist enabler tools.
- newyorker2 6y ago
  To add to the other commenter's point, an example could be a mastadon instance.
- IIAOPSW 6y ago
  Fear mongering over the fact that anyone with a desktop can still run a server on the internet. Law enforcement / the establishment would much prefer for centralized, US based cloud services (re: AWS) to be the only way to host something online, as companies can be deputized at any time via court order. The ideal scenario (from their point of view) is something like in China where every website has to have an internet license from the government and a public official has an office on the inside of every major company. When China does it we decry tencent as an arm of the CCP. When America does it we look the other way because no one wants to be seen defending "terrorism". Never mind that the "terrorism" in this case is a separatist group that hasn't been relevant since last year.
frabcus 6y ago
This Europol report gives some history of IS using decentralised tech. https://www.europol.europa.eu/publications-documents/islamic-state-group%E2%80%99s-experiments-decentralised-web https://www.europol.europa.eu/publications-documents/islamic... It mentions RocketChat, ZeroNet and Riot in use from about 5 years ago.
throwme2 6y ago
Alternative link with more details: https://www.wired.co.uk/article/isis-digital-backup https://www.wired.co.uk/article/isis-digital-backup They are just using Nextcloud: Rather than a data closet in Luxembourg, Isis uses a piece of software called Nextcloud. Developed by a German company and with its roots firmly in the open-source movement, Nextcloud is freely available for anyone to download and use, allowing its users to synchronise files across a group in a way that avoids any centralised hosting or control.
- raxxorrax 6y ago
  Nextcloud is awesome and indeed in use by quite a few companies in Germany at least. ISIS uses it because it is safer. Wouldn't necessarily use that example as an argument though. Some people also used OneDrive since many already had Office licenses, but it is just hilariously slow and your data would be a lot less safe from access.
ketzo 6y ago
Obviously, HN is a pretty friendly place for decentralized software. But as advocates, how do you defend it to people who don’t understand the benefits? If I’m pitching Matrix as an alternative to Slack, and someone brings up the fact that ISIS used one of them... what’s the response? Decentralized software is scary to someone fearful of shadowy groups. How do you successfully advocate for software that can be used by anyone, even the worst people out there?
- danaur 6y ago
  This is pretty simply the case of these things being tools and them having applicable uses outside negative ones
- dalbasal 6y ago
  The same way you would defend the www itself.
- tifadg1 6y ago
  Those people are a lost cause. Its the same as how do you refute a saying "there's nothing to fear if you have nothing to hide". You can tell your facts and statistics, but at the end of the day it means nothing as their understanding is based on beliefs and ideals.
  - remus 6y ago
    I don't think that's a very fair argument. It makes sense to weigh up the legitimate uses of a technology vs. the illegitimate uses and see if the cost is worth the benefit, and if you are unfamiliar with a certain technology then it might not be obvious what the legitimate use cases are. To me it makes sense to take the time and explain the good things you can do with it and why that's worth a few people being able to abuse the technology.
- Cthulhu_ 6y ago
  I'm not sure if it would be a logical fallacy, but you could bring up a list of other things that can (and are) be abused for nefarious purposes - cash money, ziplock bags, letters, phones, grannies, etc. I mean ISIS uses the public internet and Facebook as well and neither of those are getting the same stigma for people being disparaging about Matrix or TOR or whatnot.
dalbasal 6y ago
Douglas Adams on the Internet in 1999: "Newsreaders still feel it is worth a special and rather worrying mention if, for instance, a crime was planned by people ‘over the Internet.’ They don’t bother to mention when criminals use the telephone or the M4, or discuss their dastardly plans ‘over a cup of tea,’ though each of these was new and controversial in their day."
- mola 6y ago
  Massive changes in quantity sometimes induce changes in quality. You can't create a world movement if all your means of communication are non viral
  - onion2k 6y ago
    You can't create a world movement if all your means of communication are non viral. That must be why there were no religions before the internet..
    - LadyCailin 6y ago
      Fun fact: The medieval crusades were coordinated via TikTok.
    - watwut 6y ago
      It took a lot of time and several military conquests. Once it was done, it was cemented for hundrends of years.
      - dalbasal 6y ago
        This just isn't true. History is full of explosive growth in religious movements, cults and sects, many very short lived and some long. The ones that lasted are the ones we still have. It sometimes happened through conquest, and often in non military ways. Also political movements. The French and American revolution didn't have much of a preamble.
Animats 6y ago
What, no link so we can read it? You can still read Dabiq.[1] That was ISIL's magazine, in English. It's worth reading, but not taking too seriously. Kids in school should be exposed to extremist propaganda from all sides. Start with the extremist propaganda of another era, say the 1920s - the Industrial Workers of the World, the German-American Bund, the Communist Party of the USA, Technocracy, America First (the Lindburgh version, not the Trump version), etc. This is a survival skill today. [1] http://www.ieproject.org/projects/dabiq1.pdf http://www.ieproject.org/projects/dabiq1.pdf
- sassypotato 6y ago
  It's a shame really. Reminds me of how whenever there is a right-wing terrorist attack/mass murder everyone, including tech companies, try to hide manifestos and other media as much as possible. What happened to the truth setting us free.
082349872349872 6y ago
What information is there on deradicalisation[1]? Would it be possible to create an an antijihadi rabbit hole[2]? From a /newest thread, I've found: https://www.rand.org/pubs/monographs/MG1053.html https://www.rand.org/pubs/monographs/MG1053.html https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2001/12/all-you-need-is-love/302351/ https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2001/12/all-you... but surely there are better resources? (The indirect approach taken in the latter article agrees with Linebarger[3] on counterpropaganda: > "Enemy propaganda should, in well conducted operations, be taken into account only when it becomes an asset. That is, the enemy need only be heeded when he tells a whopping lie, or comes forth with a piece of hyprocrisy so offensive to his own people that it needs little improvement to be adapted for counterpropaganda. Most enemy themes are beyond reach, especially those of inter-ideological warfare. The Nazis and Russians made the best propaganda against each other when they got down to the basic necessities of life, not when they were trying to weave finespun theories about each other's way of thinking or of life. Refutation is a joy; it is delightful to talk back. But the best propaganda is only incidentally counterpropaganda.") [1] it is my hope that after US D's and R's learn to converse with each other, they will apply the same techniques to converse with, say, french interlocutors, or even optimistically, other others. [2] "Actual happiness always looks pretty squalid in comparison with the over-compensations for misery. And, of course, stability isn't nearly so spectacular as instability. And being contented has none of the glamour of a good fight against misfortune, none of the picturesqueness of a struggle with temptation, or a fatal overthrow by passion or doubt. Happiness is never grand." [3] http://www.gutenberg.org/files/48612/48612-h/48612-h.htm#Page_48 http://www.gutenberg.org/files/48612/48612-h/48612-h.htm#Pag...
sassypotato 6y ago
So, how can I peruse said library?
aaron695 6y ago
At least someone is archiving it! Here's a Syrian Civil War archive (230GB of content) https://twitter.com/Rebel44CZ/status/1298223195926016000 https://twitter.com/Rebel44CZ/status/1298223195926016000 Others are at least archiving some of it.

80 points by jimmySixDOF 6y ago

Anyone can explain this? >"The attraction for jihadists of these platforms is that the developers of these decentralised platforms have no way of acting against content that is stored on user-operated servers or content that's shared across a dispersed network of users, " BBC Monitoring senior jihadi specialist Mina Al-Lami said.

totetsu 6y ago
Sounds like the people producing and distributing this media are using self hosted and decentralised social network platforms. The people making these platforms release them for free for anyone to use as the like, so they can't stop jihadists. It doesn't say what they're using, but I doubt it is federated with any non-extremist networks. It's basically an article confused by the fact that most people have been hypnotized into forgetting that anyone can run any software they like on a computer and network it to another computer, without some platform having control over what they do.
- zimpenfish 6y ago
  > release them for free for anyone to use as the like, so they can't stop jihadists "Lads, lads, the license says Jihadists can't use this?" "Oh, nuts, ok, onto the next one, Malcolm."
- raxxorrax 6y ago
  FTP servers are terrorist enabler tools.
newyorker2 6y ago
To add to the other commenter's point, an example could be a mastadon instance.
IIAOPSW 6y ago
Fear mongering over the fact that anyone with a desktop can still run a server on the internet. Law enforcement / the establishment would much prefer for centralized, US based cloud services (re: AWS) to be the only way to host something online, as companies can be deputized at any time via court order. The ideal scenario (from their point of view) is something like in China where every website has to have an internet license from the government and a public official has an office on the inside of every major company. When China does it we decry tencent as an arm of the CCP. When America does it we look the other way because no one wants to be seen defending "terrorism". Never mind that the "terrorism" in this case is a separatist group that hasn't been relevant since last year.

frabcus 6y ago

This Europol report gives some history of IS using decentralised tech. https://www.europol.europa.eu/publications-documents/islamic-state-group%E2%80%99s-experiments-decentralised-web https://www.europol.europa.eu/publications-documents/islamic... It mentions RocketChat, ZeroNet and Riot in use from about 5 years ago.

throwme2 6y ago

Alternative link with more details: https://www.wired.co.uk/article/isis-digital-backup https://www.wired.co.uk/article/isis-digital-backup They are just using Nextcloud: Rather than a data closet in Luxembourg, Isis uses a piece of software called Nextcloud. Developed by a German company and with its roots firmly in the open-source movement, Nextcloud is freely available for anyone to download and use, allowing its users to synchronise files across a group in a way that avoids any centralised hosting or control.

raxxorrax 6y ago
Nextcloud is awesome and indeed in use by quite a few companies in Germany at least. ISIS uses it because it is safer. Wouldn't necessarily use that example as an argument though. Some people also used OneDrive since many already had Office licenses, but it is just hilariously slow and your data would be a lot less safe from access.

ketzo 6y ago

Obviously, HN is a pretty friendly place for decentralized software. But as advocates, how do you defend it to people who don’t understand the benefits? If I’m pitching Matrix as an alternative to Slack, and someone brings up the fact that ISIS used one of them... what’s the response? Decentralized software is scary to someone fearful of shadowy groups. How do you successfully advocate for software that can be used by anyone, even the worst people out there?

danaur 6y ago
This is pretty simply the case of these things being tools and them having applicable uses outside negative ones
dalbasal 6y ago
The same way you would defend the www itself.
tifadg1 6y ago
Those people are a lost cause. Its the same as how do you refute a saying "there's nothing to fear if you have nothing to hide". You can tell your facts and statistics, but at the end of the day it means nothing as their understanding is based on beliefs and ideals.
- remus 6y ago
  I don't think that's a very fair argument. It makes sense to weigh up the legitimate uses of a technology vs. the illegitimate uses and see if the cost is worth the benefit, and if you are unfamiliar with a certain technology then it might not be obvious what the legitimate use cases are. To me it makes sense to take the time and explain the good things you can do with it and why that's worth a few people being able to abuse the technology.
Cthulhu_ 6y ago
I'm not sure if it would be a logical fallacy, but you could bring up a list of other things that can (and are) be abused for nefarious purposes - cash money, ziplock bags, letters, phones, grannies, etc. I mean ISIS uses the public internet and Facebook as well and neither of those are getting the same stigma for people being disparaging about Matrix or TOR or whatnot.

dalbasal 6y ago

Douglas Adams on the Internet in 1999: "Newsreaders still feel it is worth a special and rather worrying mention if, for instance, a crime was planned by people ‘over the Internet.’ They don’t bother to mention when criminals use the telephone or the M4, or discuss their dastardly plans ‘over a cup of tea,’ though each of these was new and controversial in their day."

mola 6y ago
Massive changes in quantity sometimes induce changes in quality. You can't create a world movement if all your means of communication are non viral
- onion2k 6y ago
  You can't create a world movement if all your means of communication are non viral. That must be why there were no religions before the internet..
  - LadyCailin 6y ago
    Fun fact: The medieval crusades were coordinated via TikTok.
  - watwut 6y ago
    It took a lot of time and several military conquests. Once it was done, it was cemented for hundrends of years.
    - dalbasal 6y ago
      This just isn't true. History is full of explosive growth in religious movements, cults and sects, many very short lived and some long. The ones that lasted are the ones we still have. It sometimes happened through conquest, and often in non military ways. Also political movements. The French and American revolution didn't have much of a preamble.

Animats 6y ago

What, no link so we can read it? You can still read Dabiq.[1] That was ISIL's magazine, in English. It's worth reading, but not taking too seriously. Kids in school should be exposed to extremist propaganda from all sides. Start with the extremist propaganda of another era, say the 1920s - the Industrial Workers of the World, the German-American Bund, the Communist Party of the USA, Technocracy, America First (the Lindburgh version, not the Trump version), etc. This is a survival skill today. [1] http://www.ieproject.org/projects/dabiq1.pdf http://www.ieproject.org/projects/dabiq1.pdf

sassypotato 6y ago
It's a shame really. Reminds me of how whenever there is a right-wing terrorist attack/mass murder everyone, including tech companies, try to hide manifestos and other media as much as possible. What happened to the truth setting us free.

082349872349872 6y ago

What information is there on deradicalisation[1]? Would it be possible to create an an antijihadi rabbit hole[2]? From a /newest thread, I've found: https://www.rand.org/pubs/monographs/MG1053.html https://www.rand.org/pubs/monographs/MG1053.html https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2001/12/all-you-need-is-love/302351/ https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2001/12/all-you... but surely there are better resources? (The indirect approach taken in the latter article agrees with Linebarger[3] on counterpropaganda: > "Enemy propaganda should, in well conducted operations, be taken into account only when it becomes an asset. That is, the enemy need only be heeded when he tells a whopping lie, or comes forth with a piece of hyprocrisy so offensive to his own people that it needs little improvement to be adapted for counterpropaganda. Most enemy themes are beyond reach, especially those of inter-ideological warfare. The Nazis and Russians made the best propaganda against each other when they got down to the basic necessities of life, not when they were trying to weave finespun theories about each other's way of thinking or of life. Refutation is a joy; it is delightful to talk back. But the best propaganda is only incidentally counterpropaganda.") [1] it is my hope that after US D's and R's learn to converse with each other, they will apply the same techniques to converse with, say, french interlocutors, or even optimistically, other others. [2] "Actual happiness always looks pretty squalid in comparison with the over-compensations for misery. And, of course, stability isn't nearly so spectacular as instability. And being contented has none of the glamour of a good fight against misfortune, none of the picturesqueness of a struggle with temptation, or a fatal overthrow by passion or doubt. Happiness is never grand." [3] http://www.gutenberg.org/files/48612/48612-h/48612-h.htm#Page_48 http://www.gutenberg.org/files/48612/48612-h/48612-h.htm#Pag...

sassypotato 6y ago

So, how can I peruse said library?

aaron695 6y ago

At least someone is archiving it! Here's a Syrian Civil War archive (230GB of content) https://twitter.com/Rebel44CZ/status/1298223195926016000 https://twitter.com/Rebel44CZ/status/1298223195926016000 Others are at least archiving some of it.