5 ms·

This is basically my biggest objection to the young people (it's weird to write that as a young person) not taking Covid19 precautions. Yeah it won't likely kil

by eloff 6y ago

This is basically my biggest objection to the young people (it's weird to write that as a young person) not taking Covid19 precautions. Yeah it won't likely kill you (your morning commute is higher risk) but it has a high probability of leaving you with permanent damage that could knock an unknown amount of time off your life. This is even true for the flu by the way, just likely much less so. It's a nebulous risk that's hard to quantify, so people tend to not even consider it. It's still a risk though, and it could even be a very large risk, we really just don't know.

umanwizard 6y ago
Nowhere does the article linked claim that the heart inflammation described is serious permanent damage. I’m not a doctor, and don’t know one way or the other. Is there a reason you’re claiming this represents “permanent damage”?
- 0xEFF 6y ago
  "Severe myocarditis can permanently damage your heart muscle, possibly causing: Heart failure. Heart attack or stroke. Rapid or abnormal heart rhythms (arrhythmias). Sudden cardiac death." https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/myocarditis/symptoms-causes/syc-20352539 https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/myocarditis/s...
  - just-juan-post 6y ago
    > can
  - umanwizard 6y ago
    Sure, but the linked post didn’t say the inflammation was “severe”.
    - biolurker1 6y ago
      You understand how much you wanting it not to be true guides your argument?
      - creaghpatr 6y ago
        and vice versa
      - umanwizard 6y ago
        Huh? That’s completely out of left field. Attacking my motives rather than actually responding to the point.
      - dang 6y ago
        No personal attacks on HN, please. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
        biolurker1 6y ago
        I'm sure the guidelines forbid trolling too and that's what the user is doing
        dang 6y ago
        They do, but it doesn't work to point at the person when you've broken the rules yourself. Otherwise we'd end up in a downward spiral, because it always feels like the other person started it and did worse and you were just reacting. https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sort=byDate&type=comment&query=downward%20spiral%20by:dang https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sor... We do try to do both-sides moderation when we can, because it makes the medicine easier for everybody, but we don't see everything that gets posted here. If you see a post that ought to have been moderated but hasn't been, the likeliest explanation is that we didn't see it. You can help by flagging it or emailing us at hn@ycombinator.com. https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sort=byDate&type=comment&query=likeliest%20by:dang https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sor... Re trolling: people are too quick to invoke the t-word when other users are propagating views that seem wrong, especially when they seem perversely wrong. We seem generally to be able to handle disagreement that's within (say) a standard deviation from our own views, but outside that, it's hard to assume good faith anymore—it feels obvious that the other person must be manipulating or lying somehow. That's not a trustworthy feeling. It probably comes from our being hard-wired for smaller groups than the ones we encounter online. In much larger groups that are spread over many places, the distribution of opinions is much wider, meaning that each of us is certain to encounter opinions that seem perversely wrong to us, just by the natural functioning of the community. In reality, the world is a much larger place than our spectrum of feels-like-normal opinion allows for, and HN is a large enough sample of the world that this mismatch comes up here a lot. https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sort=byDate&type=comment&query=standard%20deviation%20by:dang https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sor... https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23308098 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23308098
turing_complete 6y ago
There is no evidence that there is a "high probability of leaving you with permanent damage". What you are saying is all based on some anecdotes. Take Covid seriously, assess your risk based on actual data. Don't spread misinformation.
- biolurker1 6y ago
  This thread does indeed contain actual data
  - umanwizard 6y ago
    Can you cite the data on the probability of it causing serious permanent damage? I’m not seeing it anywhere in the thread.
    - biolurker1 6y ago
      It is causing myocarditis and myocarditis is causing permanent damage to some %that you can Google.
      - umanwizard 6y ago
        How can I determine that percentage without knowing (1) what fraction of people get myocarditis or (2) how serious it is in those cases?
        biolurker1 6y ago
        again, there are available studies with results freely available to the public. dyor instead of just arguing on internet forums
- eloff 6y ago
  Actually there is some data surfacing and so far it's indicating as much as 1/3 of people have lingering effects - even of those who did not develop symptoms - and some percentage of those will be permanent. You are actually the one spreading misinformation here by saying there is no data. We all wish there was higher quality data, but it's definitely not no data.
hwillis 6y ago
I'm 28 and got it mid-March (from a roommate, I was already isolating at home but just sharing an apartment was enough). Last week I tested 60% of the expected level of gas diffusion at the Boston COVID pulmunology clinic. That's about it. There's no treatment, there's no medication, and if it were to get worse the only option is a lung transplant. I have to learn to breathe more deeply and my heart will wear out significantly faster due to the higher arterial pressure and faster pulse. I've got to be careful exercizing; 50% diffusion is considered the point where a light jog drives you into hypoxia. My o2 sensor says I drop down to the low 80s if I miss a breath at the wrong time. That's just going to be the new normal for the next 50 years, should I be so lucky. Honestly the oxygen is the least inconvenient thing. Each breath gets me a bit more air than a normal person would get on top of Mt Ranier, but I've already pretty much adjusted to that. Low oxygen is hard to notice and adjusted for quickly, but nobody talks about the CO2. CO2 is being locked into my blood by the same scars/thickening that are keeping oxygen out. Many people can relate to extended altitude sickness (and how much it sucks) but very very few people my age have elevated CO2 like this. The closest you can get is sprinting until you're sucking air, and you can't catch your breath even if you take the biggest breath you can, until your ribs creak. I have been living in that moment for six months. I highly recommend against it. At the best times I'm anxious and forgetful; at the worst I'm just lying down for hours trying to breathe as quickly and deeply as possible with an intense sensation of being on the verge of passing out. It sucks, its cutting into my lifespan and it's very seriously affecting my quality of life. Long hauler effects like this seem to be in the double digit percentages, which puts the number of people around a hundred times higher than the fatalities. Seriously, it's very not fucking worth it. Even if I recover partially -which is unlikely, at this point- or even if you "only" get a less physical impact like postviral syndrome, its going to severely fuck up years of your life, FAR worse than whatever quarantine is doing to you.
- partyboat1586 6y ago
  Can you use an oxygen tank to improve your O2 levels? Or is your rate of absorption a limiting factor?
  - hwillis 6y ago
akira2501 6y ago
> we really just don't know. We also don't know the health of these players prior to contracting COVID. I also wonder about factors like drug and alcohol abuse and possibly steroid use.
hkai 6y ago
This is basically the problem with jumping to conclusions based on some guy's claim, because the guy then retracts his claim but most people will still believe that covid causes myocarditis. > Key quote: "at this time, there have been no cases of myocarditis in COVID-19 positive student-athletes at Penn State."

by eloff 6y ago

umanwizard 6y ago

Nowhere does the article linked claim that the heart inflammation described is serious permanent damage. I’m not a doctor, and don’t know one way or the other. Is there a reason you’re claiming this represents “permanent damage”?

0xEFF 6y ago
"Severe myocarditis can permanently damage your heart muscle, possibly causing: Heart failure. Heart attack or stroke. Rapid or abnormal heart rhythms (arrhythmias). Sudden cardiac death." https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/myocarditis/symptoms-causes/syc-20352539 https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/myocarditis/s...
- just-juan-post 6y ago
  > can
- umanwizard 6y ago
  Sure, but the linked post didn’t say the inflammation was “severe”.
  - biolurker1 6y ago
    You understand how much you wanting it not to be true guides your argument?
    - creaghpatr 6y ago
      and vice versa
    - umanwizard 6y ago
      Huh? That’s completely out of left field. Attacking my motives rather than actually responding to the point.
    - dang 6y ago
      No personal attacks on HN, please. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
      - biolurker1 6y ago
        I'm sure the guidelines forbid trolling too and that's what the user is doing
        dang 6y ago
        They do, but it doesn't work to point at the person when you've broken the rules yourself. Otherwise we'd end up in a downward spiral, because it always feels like the other person started it and did worse and you were just reacting. https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sort=byDate&type=comment&query=downward%20spiral%20by:dang https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sor... We do try to do both-sides moderation when we can, because it makes the medicine easier for everybody, but we don't see everything that gets posted here. If you see a post that ought to have been moderated but hasn't been, the likeliest explanation is that we didn't see it. You can help by flagging it or emailing us at hn@ycombinator.com. https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sort=byDate&type=comment&query=likeliest%20by:dang https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sor... Re trolling: people are too quick to invoke the t-word when other users are propagating views that seem wrong, especially when they seem perversely wrong. We seem generally to be able to handle disagreement that's within (say) a standard deviation from our own views, but outside that, it's hard to assume good faith anymore—it feels obvious that the other person must be manipulating or lying somehow. That's not a trustworthy feeling. It probably comes from our being hard-wired for smaller groups than the ones we encounter online. In much larger groups that are spread over many places, the distribution of opinions is much wider, meaning that each of us is certain to encounter opinions that seem perversely wrong to us, just by the natural functioning of the community. In reality, the world is a much larger place than our spectrum of feels-like-normal opinion allows for, and HN is a large enough sample of the world that this mismatch comes up here a lot. https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sort=byDate&type=comment&query=standard%20deviation%20by:dang https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sor... https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23308098 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23308098

turing_complete 6y ago

There is no evidence that there is a "high probability of leaving you with permanent damage". What you are saying is all based on some anecdotes. Take Covid seriously, assess your risk based on actual data. Don't spread misinformation.

biolurker1 6y ago
This thread does indeed contain actual data
- umanwizard 6y ago
  Can you cite the data on the probability of it causing serious permanent damage? I’m not seeing it anywhere in the thread.
  - biolurker1 6y ago
    It is causing myocarditis and myocarditis is causing permanent damage to some %that you can Google.
    - umanwizard 6y ago
      How can I determine that percentage without knowing (1) what fraction of people get myocarditis or (2) how serious it is in those cases?
      - biolurker1 6y ago
        again, there are available studies with results freely available to the public. dyor instead of just arguing on internet forums
eloff 6y ago
Actually there is some data surfacing and so far it's indicating as much as 1/3 of people have lingering effects - even of those who did not develop symptoms - and some percentage of those will be permanent. You are actually the one spreading misinformation here by saying there is no data. We all wish there was higher quality data, but it's definitely not no data.

hwillis 6y ago

I'm 28 and got it mid-March (from a roommate, I was already isolating at home but just sharing an apartment was enough). Last week I tested 60% of the expected level of gas diffusion at the Boston COVID pulmunology clinic. That's about it. There's no treatment, there's no medication, and if it were to get worse the only option is a lung transplant. I have to learn to breathe more deeply and my heart will wear out significantly faster due to the higher arterial pressure and faster pulse. I've got to be careful exercizing; 50% diffusion is considered the point where a light jog drives you into hypoxia. My o2 sensor says I drop down to the low 80s if I miss a breath at the wrong time. That's just going to be the new normal for the next 50 years, should I be so lucky. Honestly the oxygen is the least inconvenient thing. Each breath gets me a bit more air than a normal person would get on top of Mt Ranier, but I've already pretty much adjusted to that. Low oxygen is hard to notice and adjusted for quickly, but nobody talks about the CO2. CO2 is being locked into my blood by the same scars/thickening that are keeping oxygen out. Many people can relate to extended altitude sickness (and how much it sucks) but very very few people my age have elevated CO2 like this. The closest you can get is sprinting until you're sucking air, and you can't catch your breath even if you take the biggest breath you can, until your ribs creak. I have been living in that moment for six months. I highly recommend against it. At the best times I'm anxious and forgetful; at the worst I'm just lying down for hours trying to breathe as quickly and deeply as possible with an intense sensation of being on the verge of passing out. It sucks, its cutting into my lifespan and it's very seriously affecting my quality of life. Long hauler effects like this seem to be in the double digit percentages, which puts the number of people around a hundred times higher than the fatalities. Seriously, it's very not fucking worth it. Even if I recover partially -which is unlikely, at this point- or even if you "only" get a less physical impact like postviral syndrome, its going to severely fuck up years of your life, FAR worse than whatever quarantine is doing to you.

partyboat1586 6y ago
Can you use an oxygen tank to improve your O2 levels? Or is your rate of absorption a limiting factor?
- hwillis 6y ago

akira2501 6y ago

> we really just don't know. We also don't know the health of these players prior to contracting COVID. I also wonder about factors like drug and alcohol abuse and possibly steroid use.

hkai 6y ago

This is basically the problem with jumping to conclusions based on some guy's claim, because the guy then retracts his claim but most people will still believe that covid causes myocarditis. > Key quote: "at this time, there have been no cases of myocarditis in COVID-19 positive student-athletes at Penn State."