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All the people arguing semantics when the author lives in a repressive dictatorship that would literally torture you for a confession and then execute you for i

All the people arguing semantics when the author lives in a repressive dictatorship that would literally torture you for a confession and then execute you for it.. if anyone EVER comes by this PR even a decade from now. Meanwhile, no one here would even think of violating US export controls against North Korea... when the consequences are likely just prison time. Armchair tough guys.

duxup 6y ago
I don't see a lot of shade being thrown at the author, just a lot of confusion. Not armchair tough, just not fully understanding... yet, I think there's a difference.
- panpanna 6y ago
  Are you sure? His comment has right now 109 thumbs down, zero thumbs up.
  - duxup 6y ago
    At the time I posted I didn't see much shade being thrown at the author. As for votes I see no reason to interpret them in any particular way.
JumpCrisscross 6y ago
> no one here would even think of violating US export controls against North Korea If there were a vibrant industrial or creative community in North Korea to interact with, I’d see the light in this argument. But there isn’t. The only entity to contract with is the state. That makes the comparison difficult. Cuba, on the other hand...
- kome 6y ago
  or Iran...
- gruez 6y ago
  Violating sanctions is definitely a concern as your company gets bigger. See: https://news.crunchbase.com/news/startups-have-to-care-about-violating-u-s-sanctions-laws-too/ https://news.crunchbase.com/news/startups-have-to-care-about..., and github restricting access for people from iran, syria, and crimea.
  - hinkley 6y ago
    But the maintainer is from Tehran. Did we just out someone violating the GH TOS?
- arghwhat 6y ago
  > If there were a vibrant industrial or creative community in North Korea to interact with, I’d see the light in this argument. But there isn’t. This is entirely false. For example, North Korea has, believe it or not, a booming software development outsourcing industry (mostly apps I think). Their labor is dirt cheap and they're apparently not half bad at what they do. I believe the same goes for any other type of labor: If you're willing to violate trade sanctions, you can get anything from there for a penny.
aaomidi 6y ago
Yeah the entire comment section is just annoyingly naive.
- cowmoo728 6y ago
  Especially given the recent case of Navid Akfari. He's a very popular Iranian wrestler that made the mistake of being tangentially involved with anti government protests in 2018. He and his brothers were tortured into giving confessions, and is now sentenced to more torture and then execution. It is not something to take lightly.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
- captainredbeard 6y ago
  The modern right despises Fox as much as you do.
wheels 6y ago
Iran is repressive, and fraught with problems, but it's not a dictatorship. There's a reasonably intricate bureaucracy, much of which is semi-democratic: for example, the supreme leader's preferred presidential candidate doesn't always win. The current president, Rouhani, is a moderate, and is not especially liked by the hard-liners. It's pretty crazy that your comment comparing it to North Korea and insinuating that someone would be tortured and executed for merging a Github PR is top rated.
- rgbrenner 6y ago
  The whole thing is a facade.. Like picking presidential candidates that have all been vetted to have acceptable viewpoints. "You can pick anyone that believes what I believe." Laws, but if someone in the government suspects you of a crime or just doesn't like you, they through you into an interrogation cell and torture you until they get what they want. There's no rule of law. And there's no democracy in Iran.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
- whearyou 6y ago
  facepalm
- tgv 6y ago
  If it quacks ... The "supreme leader's preferred presidential candidate" may not always win, but he has to obey the supreme leader and his gang anyway. It's pretty close to a dictatorship, even if it's usually couched as "theocracy".
  - wheels 6y ago
    It's definitely a theocracy, but the president does have some measure of real power (e.g. for better or worse, the nuclear deal almost certainly wouldn't have happened had Rouhani not been elected). I'm not saying that the government isn't problematic, just that every problematic government isn't a dictatorship.
throw_m239339 6y ago
> All the people arguing semantics when the author lives in a repressive dictatorship that would literally torture you for a confession and then execute you for it.. if anyone EVER comes by this PR even a decade from now. He is using a language that was mainly developed by Israeli and has Israeli on its core team, this is a flimsy excuse not to merge a PR. Laravele itself probably already has Israeli contributors too. This argument makes no sense. If he is using PHP and Laravele he is allegedly already in danger by your logic, since using code and libraries authored by Israeli. This isn't a github or a git issue, at all.
- sudosysgen 6y ago
  Doesn't change that people will be able to use this against him in the future, perhaps violently.
  - throw_m239339 6y ago
    > Doesn't change that people will be able to use this against him in the future, perhaps violently. The Iranian government already has a case against him then, he is using PHP and committing code on github.
    - sudosysgen 6y ago
      Not really, in practice no one will get you from using publicly-available code that is part of a larger project. Directly interacting with someone, that's different.
- proto-n 6y ago
  In these cases often optics matter more than facts. Using something common that has some israelian authors? Probably fine. Personally accepting a contribution from someone with a very israelian sounding name? Possibly treason, I would want to take chances.
  - throw_m239339 6y ago
yongjik 6y ago
Also, one more comment in the page reads very naive: > Let the problem be until it escalates to GitHub's (Microsoft) management to find a proper way to deal with this. If MS management gets wind of this, I fear the most likely outcome would be "Thanks for bringing this to our attention! By being an Iranian citizen, this account violated our TOS. This account is now permanently closed."
- oferzelig 6y ago
  Yeah that was me (I had also created an earlier HN thread about it -> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24360801 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24360801). I know it's written with a smile, but being serious for a second, it won't happen since sanctions on Iran only apply to the public sector, or perhaps companies, but certainly not individuals.
  - yreg 6y ago
    I wouldn't be so sure Microsoft's legal department would find that worth the risk. https://techcrunch.com/2019/07/29/github-ban-sanctioned-countries/ https://techcrunch.com/2019/07/29/github-ban-sanctioned-coun...
  - qppo 6y ago
    It's been awhile since I did work that required (super fun) export controls training sessions but I really don't think this is accurate. For certain the sanctions apply to all government and non-government entities in Iran with exemptions for a few categories. Technological goods and services are generally not exempted. As for individuals, it's way too risky.
  - net4all 6y ago
    "GitHub restricts developer accounts based in Iran, Crimea, and other countries under US sanctions" https://www.theverge.com/2019/7/29/8934694/github-us-trade-sanctions-developers-restricted-crimea-cuba-iran-north-korea-syria https://www.theverge.com/2019/7/29/8934694/github-us-trade-s... Accounts from such nations have their functionality restricted, commercial use in any form is not allowed.
golergka 6y ago
Dictatorships are scary, but they're sloppy, bad at police work and don't apply their laws consistently. May be in a western country you have to worry about whether or not you broke the letter of the law. In an authoritarian country, you have to worry about whether you made someone in power upset, or just presented an easy target for some police officials to close another case they need for their KPI — which they do absolutely heartlessly, but in the most primitive and least labour-intensive way. So, if at some points Iranian police will start going through Github and monitor all PRs and check user's origin countries — then yes, you're in trouble. But I judging from first-hand contact with how authoritarian police operates, they almost never know English well enough to go through foreign resources. And if someone who's educated (and competent) enough to do it is after you, then you're already in great trouble anyway.
Ancapistani 6y ago
> Meanwhile, no one here would even think of violating US export controls against North Korea I wouldn't be so sure about that. I have personally done business with individuals in countries that are on my country's "naughty list". This is one of the reasons I fully support the concept of cryptocurrencies - even though there are myriad problems with there current implementation, Bitcoin has allowed me to transact with individuals in both Venezuela, which is on the "naughty list", and Somalia, where to my knowledge no major bank allows direct fund transfers.
deleted 6y ago
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deleted 6y ago
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echelon 6y ago
You summed this situation up perfectly. Arman's life and safety takes priority over any of our personal grievances about the situation. I really applaud Yehuda for handling things appropriately after putting in the work. This is a sticky situation that has existed longer than any of us have been alive. As much as I want to see a resolution where all people can live under peaceful, democratic, non-authoritarian governments that respect all of the various differences between us, I don't know that we'll get there in our lifetimes. Especially if we continue to jump to conclusions. This is a hard problem that manifests itself out of inequity, generational hurt, and hate. And as long as people are exploited and taken advantage of, there will continue to be pain. We should always strive for greater understanding and cooperation, and empathy should be at the root of the framework we use to deal with this complex issue. I feel for both Arman and Yehuda, and all of the countless people impacted by these tensions. If we learn anything from this, I hope that it is kindness and understanding. The world needs more of it.
gnramires 6y ago
Tbf, one of the comments is from an Iranian natural in Canada that apparently was captured and held by the Iranian government. He has a story that's worth sharing: https://medium.com/@behdadesfahbod/if-you-read-one-thing-from-me-please-be-this-2262ec7b8af2 https://medium.com/@behdadesfahbod/if-you-read-one-thing-fro...

duxup 6y ago

I don't see a lot of shade being thrown at the author, just a lot of confusion. Not armchair tough, just not fully understanding... yet, I think there's a difference.

panpanna 6y ago
Are you sure? His comment has right now 109 thumbs down, zero thumbs up.
- duxup 6y ago
  At the time I posted I didn't see much shade being thrown at the author. As for votes I see no reason to interpret them in any particular way.

JumpCrisscross 6y ago

> no one here would even think of violating US export controls against North Korea If there were a vibrant industrial or creative community in North Korea to interact with, I’d see the light in this argument. But there isn’t. The only entity to contract with is the state. That makes the comparison difficult. Cuba, on the other hand...

kome 6y ago
or Iran...
gruez 6y ago
Violating sanctions is definitely a concern as your company gets bigger. See: https://news.crunchbase.com/news/startups-have-to-care-about-violating-u-s-sanctions-laws-too/ https://news.crunchbase.com/news/startups-have-to-care-about..., and github restricting access for people from iran, syria, and crimea.
- hinkley 6y ago
  But the maintainer is from Tehran. Did we just out someone violating the GH TOS?
arghwhat 6y ago
> If there were a vibrant industrial or creative community in North Korea to interact with, I’d see the light in this argument. But there isn’t. This is entirely false. For example, North Korea has, believe it or not, a booming software development outsourcing industry (mostly apps I think). Their labor is dirt cheap and they're apparently not half bad at what they do. I believe the same goes for any other type of labor: If you're willing to violate trade sanctions, you can get anything from there for a penny.

aaomidi 6y ago

Yeah the entire comment section is just annoyingly naive.

cowmoo728 6y ago
Especially given the recent case of Navid Akfari. He's a very popular Iranian wrestler that made the mistake of being tangentially involved with anti government protests in 2018. He and his brothers were tortured into giving confessions, and is now sentenced to more torture and then execution. It is not something to take lightly.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

captainredbeard 6y ago
The modern right despises Fox as much as you do.

wheels 6y ago

Iran is repressive, and fraught with problems, but it's not a dictatorship. There's a reasonably intricate bureaucracy, much of which is semi-democratic: for example, the supreme leader's preferred presidential candidate doesn't always win. The current president, Rouhani, is a moderate, and is not especially liked by the hard-liners. It's pretty crazy that your comment comparing it to North Korea and insinuating that someone would be tortured and executed for merging a Github PR is top rated.

rgbrenner 6y ago
The whole thing is a facade.. Like picking presidential candidates that have all been vetted to have acceptable viewpoints. "You can pick anyone that believes what I believe." Laws, but if someone in the government suspects you of a crime or just doesn't like you, they through you into an interrogation cell and torture you until they get what they want. There's no rule of law. And there's no democracy in Iran.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
whearyou 6y ago
facepalm
tgv 6y ago
If it quacks ... The "supreme leader's preferred presidential candidate" may not always win, but he has to obey the supreme leader and his gang anyway. It's pretty close to a dictatorship, even if it's usually couched as "theocracy".
- wheels 6y ago
  It's definitely a theocracy, but the president does have some measure of real power (e.g. for better or worse, the nuclear deal almost certainly wouldn't have happened had Rouhani not been elected). I'm not saying that the government isn't problematic, just that every problematic government isn't a dictatorship.

throw_m239339 6y ago

> All the people arguing semantics when the author lives in a repressive dictatorship that would literally torture you for a confession and then execute you for it.. if anyone EVER comes by this PR even a decade from now. He is using a language that was mainly developed by Israeli and has Israeli on its core team, this is a flimsy excuse not to merge a PR. Laravele itself probably already has Israeli contributors too. This argument makes no sense. If he is using PHP and Laravele he is allegedly already in danger by your logic, since using code and libraries authored by Israeli. This isn't a github or a git issue, at all.

sudosysgen 6y ago
Doesn't change that people will be able to use this against him in the future, perhaps violently.
- throw_m239339 6y ago
  > Doesn't change that people will be able to use this against him in the future, perhaps violently. The Iranian government already has a case against him then, he is using PHP and committing code on github.
  - sudosysgen 6y ago
    Not really, in practice no one will get you from using publicly-available code that is part of a larger project. Directly interacting with someone, that's different.
proto-n 6y ago
In these cases often optics matter more than facts. Using something common that has some israelian authors? Probably fine. Personally accepting a contribution from someone with a very israelian sounding name? Possibly treason, I would want to take chances.
- throw_m239339 6y ago

yongjik 6y ago

Also, one more comment in the page reads very naive: > Let the problem be until it escalates to GitHub's (Microsoft) management to find a proper way to deal with this. If MS management gets wind of this, I fear the most likely outcome would be "Thanks for bringing this to our attention! By being an Iranian citizen, this account violated our TOS. This account is now permanently closed."

oferzelig 6y ago
Yeah that was me (I had also created an earlier HN thread about it -> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24360801 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24360801). I know it's written with a smile, but being serious for a second, it won't happen since sanctions on Iran only apply to the public sector, or perhaps companies, but certainly not individuals.
- yreg 6y ago
  I wouldn't be so sure Microsoft's legal department would find that worth the risk. https://techcrunch.com/2019/07/29/github-ban-sanctioned-countries/ https://techcrunch.com/2019/07/29/github-ban-sanctioned-coun...
- qppo 6y ago
  It's been awhile since I did work that required (super fun) export controls training sessions but I really don't think this is accurate. For certain the sanctions apply to all government and non-government entities in Iran with exemptions for a few categories. Technological goods and services are generally not exempted. As for individuals, it's way too risky.
- net4all 6y ago
  "GitHub restricts developer accounts based in Iran, Crimea, and other countries under US sanctions" https://www.theverge.com/2019/7/29/8934694/github-us-trade-sanctions-developers-restricted-crimea-cuba-iran-north-korea-syria https://www.theverge.com/2019/7/29/8934694/github-us-trade-s... Accounts from such nations have their functionality restricted, commercial use in any form is not allowed.

golergka 6y ago

Dictatorships are scary, but they're sloppy, bad at police work and don't apply their laws consistently. May be in a western country you have to worry about whether or not you broke the letter of the law. In an authoritarian country, you have to worry about whether you made someone in power upset, or just presented an easy target for some police officials to close another case they need for their KPI — which they do absolutely heartlessly, but in the most primitive and least labour-intensive way. So, if at some points Iranian police will start going through Github and monitor all PRs and check user's origin countries — then yes, you're in trouble. But I judging from first-hand contact with how authoritarian police operates, they almost never know English well enough to go through foreign resources. And if someone who's educated (and competent) enough to do it is after you, then you're already in great trouble anyway.

Ancapistani 6y ago

> Meanwhile, no one here would even think of violating US export controls against North Korea I wouldn't be so sure about that. I have personally done business with individuals in countries that are on my country's "naughty list". This is one of the reasons I fully support the concept of cryptocurrencies - even though there are myriad problems with there current implementation, Bitcoin has allowed me to transact with individuals in both Venezuela, which is on the "naughty list", and Somalia, where to my knowledge no major bank allows direct fund transfers.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

echelon 6y ago

You summed this situation up perfectly. Arman's life and safety takes priority over any of our personal grievances about the situation. I really applaud Yehuda for handling things appropriately after putting in the work. This is a sticky situation that has existed longer than any of us have been alive. As much as I want to see a resolution where all people can live under peaceful, democratic, non-authoritarian governments that respect all of the various differences between us, I don't know that we'll get there in our lifetimes. Especially if we continue to jump to conclusions. This is a hard problem that manifests itself out of inequity, generational hurt, and hate. And as long as people are exploited and taken advantage of, there will continue to be pain. We should always strive for greater understanding and cooperation, and empathy should be at the root of the framework we use to deal with this complex issue. I feel for both Arman and Yehuda, and all of the countless people impacted by these tensions. If we learn anything from this, I hope that it is kindness and understanding. The world needs more of it.

gnramires 6y ago

Tbf, one of the comments is from an Iranian natural in Canada that apparently was captured and held by the Iranian government. He has a story that's worth sharing: https://medium.com/@behdadesfahbod/if-you-read-one-thing-from-me-please-be-this-2262ec7b8af2 https://medium.com/@behdadesfahbod/if-you-read-one-thing-fro...