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I think this is true and that is why fleeing to Russia was the correct choice. Because the whistle blower channels don't work.

lettergram 6y ago
Just for additional clarity, Russia wasn’t his first choice. It was somewhere in South America. US decided to ground him in Russia (best optics for them really)
koheripbal 6y ago
Russia was probably his only choice. Every other country would have extradited him. I doubt he is happy with having to live in Russia - the main benefactor of his leaks. It's impossible to imagine that he is able to reconcile his hatred of US spying with the malicious actions of the government he now relies on for protection. ...and that's the ultimate crux of this whole thing. When you go up against the US government, you have to ask yourself - is there any major world power out there that's better? I don't think he asked himself that question.
- kentrado 6y ago
  Perhaps he didn't go against the government but went in support of the US citizens and believed what the government did was wrong.
- raxxorrax 6y ago
  I do think he asked himself that question. edit: Saying Russia is the main benefactor of the leaks sounds like evidence of long lost cold war thinking to be honest. Perhaps it would also be to the benefit of the targets of surveillance? Because if you wouldn't want to hand Russia a win, not subjecting the population to surveillance would have been quite the strategy in this case.
  - alilsumpinditto 6y ago
    Would just like to point out, Putin was on record in an interview talking about Snowden, and was pretty open about how these programs make sense from an intelligence point of view, and pretty much said that Russia is doing the same thing. He wasn't pretending like they're not doing the exact same thing. I believe it's somewhat of a don't hate the player, hate the game from the perspective of the CIA/KGB/what have you. Why can't we just be open about our smart TVs listening to us?
    - gzer0 6y ago
      The "nothing to hide" argument mistakenly suggests that privacy is something only criminals desire. Fences and curtains are ways to ensure a measure of privacy, not indicators of criminal behavior. Privacy is a fundamental part of a dignified life.
      - TheSpiceIsLife 6y ago
        That's not an accurate representation of reality. Let's demand that, and in the mean time wouldn't hurt to be honest.
    - raxxorrax 6y ago
      He has the image of a dictator (rightly so) and doesn't need to hide it. He connects the image western people have of him to their own domestic actors. If he just condemned it, he would be the hypocrite. So he opted to redirect animosity towards him to others. Pointing out mass surveillance isn't an attack on the integrity of the US, it is an attack on the practice you would expect from Putin.
    - havetocharge 6y ago
      That's one difference about Russian and American citizens -- the Russians have pretty much accepted this, and reserve all anti government talk to private conversations or avoid it altogether, while Americans are generally in denial or just ignorant about it.
- konjin 6y ago
  >I doubt he is happy with having to live in Russia - the main benefactor of his leaks. It's impossible to imagine that he is able to reconcile his hatred of US spying with the malicious actions of the government he now relies on for protection. You don't go nearly far enough. Every conviction for rape in the US benefits Russia by making the US government look weak. We should stop persecuting people for rape or be Kremlin stooges. Same for hate crimes. Only in total obedience to the President can we finally win against the Great Enemy. /s in case anyone is stupid enough to need it.
- roenxi 6y ago
  > ...and that's the ultimate crux of this whole thing. When you go up against the US government, you have to ask yourself - is there any major world power out there that's better? Even if this ruling gets overturned it is irrefutable evidence that, after considering the issues, a person who understood the legal issues might conclude that the people behind the mass surveillance program were engaged in a literal criminal conspiracy. Snowden wasn't going up against the US government, he was going up against a rogue branch of the military. I hope there is some consensus here that illegal programs aren't legitimate.
- Applejinx 6y ago
  Out of the frying pan into the fire… but I think human nature suggests that he is making himself happy with it. He's dependent on being fine with everything about Russia, because it's that or be killed in one place or the other: last thing he could afford to do is antagonize Putin, he pretty much has to become 'All Russia, all the time' and that's a powerful motivator to persuade himself that now he is in the GOOD place, and it's the USA that was uniquely wicked and bad.
  - shawnz 6y ago
    Then why didn't he just make himself happy with the NSA?
  - __s 6y ago
    Snowden is critical of Russia, this comes up in every interview he gives
- havetocharge 6y ago
  You know, Snowden has recently wrote and published something of an autobiography called "Permanent Record". You don't need to think or guess, he explained his motivations, thoughts and feelings fairly well there, and they don't quite align with your comment.
polytely 6y ago
Clarification: He was in Russia when the US cancelled his passport stranding him there, his intended destination was Ecuador. I think stranding him in Russia was a deliberate choice to discredit Snowden and it seems to be working very well.
- acqq 6y ago
  While Ecuador was a good choice then, it changed since: see the fate of Julian Assange. The last update on how he is treated: https://www.computerweekly.com/news/252487666/US-decision-to-file-new-charges-against-Julian-Assange-astonishing-and-potentially-abusive-court https://www.computerweekly.com/news/252487666/US-decision-to...
- 627467 6y ago
  What leads you to perceive that being stranded in Russia is discrediting Snowden? I don't doubt that (almost) any other American taking shelter in Russia would make a dent on their reputation in US, but I'm curious about Snowden specifically. IMO, Those who know what he did and how he did (in general) seem to support him. A minority hates him. But the rest of public opinion?
  - polytely 6y ago
    One of the often repeated talking points from the government/intelligence community is that Snowden traded away US secrets to an enemy country. That narrative has way more impact - I think - when he is stranded in Russia instead of Ecuador. (Snowden denies this and says he didn't have access to the leaked materials any more when he left Hong Kong) I think the intelligence community and establishment democrats & republicans are generally still out to get Snowden, while his support comes from the fringes left and (libertarian-)right, who have basically no actual power. Public opinion seems to be mixed and a lot of regular people don't have strongly held opinions about Snowden (or mass surveillance in general). The Patriot Act is still in effect for god’s sake even after all these revelations. Lately the whole russia-gate thing has made it really easy to get people to froth at the mouth at any Russian connection, and the fact that Trump said he wanted to look at Snowden (Even a broken clock is right twice a day) automatically will turn anti-Trump people against it. So I don't see public opinion turning more positive on Snowden in the short term. EDIT: I realized that my writing looks very GTP-3 like, but I swear i'm not a bot, I'm just having trouble connecting these thoughts in a nice way.
havetocharge 6y ago
You're right that whistleblower channels don't work, at the very least according to Snowden. But you're wrong about him fleeing to Russia, as that's not where he was going to, but where he ended up.

lettergram 6y ago

Just for additional clarity, Russia wasn’t his first choice. It was somewhere in South America. US decided to ground him in Russia (best optics for them really)

koheripbal 6y ago

Russia was probably his only choice. Every other country would have extradited him. I doubt he is happy with having to live in Russia - the main benefactor of his leaks. It's impossible to imagine that he is able to reconcile his hatred of US spying with the malicious actions of the government he now relies on for protection. ...and that's the ultimate crux of this whole thing. When you go up against the US government, you have to ask yourself - is there any major world power out there that's better? I don't think he asked himself that question.

kentrado 6y ago
Perhaps he didn't go against the government but went in support of the US citizens and believed what the government did was wrong.
raxxorrax 6y ago
I do think he asked himself that question. edit: Saying Russia is the main benefactor of the leaks sounds like evidence of long lost cold war thinking to be honest. Perhaps it would also be to the benefit of the targets of surveillance? Because if you wouldn't want to hand Russia a win, not subjecting the population to surveillance would have been quite the strategy in this case.
- alilsumpinditto 6y ago
  Would just like to point out, Putin was on record in an interview talking about Snowden, and was pretty open about how these programs make sense from an intelligence point of view, and pretty much said that Russia is doing the same thing. He wasn't pretending like they're not doing the exact same thing. I believe it's somewhat of a don't hate the player, hate the game from the perspective of the CIA/KGB/what have you. Why can't we just be open about our smart TVs listening to us?
  - gzer0 6y ago
    The "nothing to hide" argument mistakenly suggests that privacy is something only criminals desire. Fences and curtains are ways to ensure a measure of privacy, not indicators of criminal behavior. Privacy is a fundamental part of a dignified life.
    - TheSpiceIsLife 6y ago
      That's not an accurate representation of reality. Let's demand that, and in the mean time wouldn't hurt to be honest.
  - raxxorrax 6y ago
    He has the image of a dictator (rightly so) and doesn't need to hide it. He connects the image western people have of him to their own domestic actors. If he just condemned it, he would be the hypocrite. So he opted to redirect animosity towards him to others. Pointing out mass surveillance isn't an attack on the integrity of the US, it is an attack on the practice you would expect from Putin.
  - havetocharge 6y ago
    That's one difference about Russian and American citizens -- the Russians have pretty much accepted this, and reserve all anti government talk to private conversations or avoid it altogether, while Americans are generally in denial or just ignorant about it.
konjin 6y ago
>I doubt he is happy with having to live in Russia - the main benefactor of his leaks. It's impossible to imagine that he is able to reconcile his hatred of US spying with the malicious actions of the government he now relies on for protection. You don't go nearly far enough. Every conviction for rape in the US benefits Russia by making the US government look weak. We should stop persecuting people for rape or be Kremlin stooges. Same for hate crimes. Only in total obedience to the President can we finally win against the Great Enemy. /s in case anyone is stupid enough to need it.
roenxi 6y ago
> ...and that's the ultimate crux of this whole thing. When you go up against the US government, you have to ask yourself - is there any major world power out there that's better? Even if this ruling gets overturned it is irrefutable evidence that, after considering the issues, a person who understood the legal issues might conclude that the people behind the mass surveillance program were engaged in a literal criminal conspiracy. Snowden wasn't going up against the US government, he was going up against a rogue branch of the military. I hope there is some consensus here that illegal programs aren't legitimate.
Applejinx 6y ago
Out of the frying pan into the fire… but I think human nature suggests that he is making himself happy with it. He's dependent on being fine with everything about Russia, because it's that or be killed in one place or the other: last thing he could afford to do is antagonize Putin, he pretty much has to become 'All Russia, all the time' and that's a powerful motivator to persuade himself that now he is in the GOOD place, and it's the USA that was uniquely wicked and bad.
- shawnz 6y ago
  Then why didn't he just make himself happy with the NSA?
- __s 6y ago
  Snowden is critical of Russia, this comes up in every interview he gives
havetocharge 6y ago
You know, Snowden has recently wrote and published something of an autobiography called "Permanent Record". You don't need to think or guess, he explained his motivations, thoughts and feelings fairly well there, and they don't quite align with your comment.

polytely 6y ago

Clarification: He was in Russia when the US cancelled his passport stranding him there, his intended destination was Ecuador. I think stranding him in Russia was a deliberate choice to discredit Snowden and it seems to be working very well.

acqq 6y ago
While Ecuador was a good choice then, it changed since: see the fate of Julian Assange. The last update on how he is treated: https://www.computerweekly.com/news/252487666/US-decision-to-file-new-charges-against-Julian-Assange-astonishing-and-potentially-abusive-court https://www.computerweekly.com/news/252487666/US-decision-to...
627467 6y ago
What leads you to perceive that being stranded in Russia is discrediting Snowden? I don't doubt that (almost) any other American taking shelter in Russia would make a dent on their reputation in US, but I'm curious about Snowden specifically. IMO, Those who know what he did and how he did (in general) seem to support him. A minority hates him. But the rest of public opinion?
- polytely 6y ago
  One of the often repeated talking points from the government/intelligence community is that Snowden traded away US secrets to an enemy country. That narrative has way more impact - I think - when he is stranded in Russia instead of Ecuador. (Snowden denies this and says he didn't have access to the leaked materials any more when he left Hong Kong) I think the intelligence community and establishment democrats & republicans are generally still out to get Snowden, while his support comes from the fringes left and (libertarian-)right, who have basically no actual power. Public opinion seems to be mixed and a lot of regular people don't have strongly held opinions about Snowden (or mass surveillance in general). The Patriot Act is still in effect for god’s sake even after all these revelations. Lately the whole russia-gate thing has made it really easy to get people to froth at the mouth at any Russian connection, and the fact that Trump said he wanted to look at Snowden (Even a broken clock is right twice a day) automatically will turn anti-Trump people against it. So I don't see public opinion turning more positive on Snowden in the short term. EDIT: I realized that my writing looks very GTP-3 like, but I swear i'm not a bot, I'm just having trouble connecting these thoughts in a nice way.

havetocharge 6y ago

You're right that whistleblower channels don't work, at the very least according to Snowden. But you're wrong about him fleeing to Russia, as that's not where he was going to, but where he ended up.