7 ms·

Interviews with makers of high-end mechanical keyboards

52 points by hellweaver666 6y ago

smabie 6y ago
I would love to use a custom built keyboard, but my RSI makes it so I can only type on a Kinesis Advantage for extended periods of time. I'm surprised more people don't use them, the traditional keyboard layout makes very little sense. It's crazy how much inertia many sub-optimal things have.
- jakecopp 6y ago
  I didn't realise how exhausting typing on a normal staggered layout keyboard is until using a Kinesis Advantage, I love it to bits. Like try hitting the 'x' key with your ring finger (next to pinky) like you're "supposed" to on a MacBook Pro with your elbows out - that's the insanity I'm talking about!
- Okkef 6y ago
  There's a whole sub community online that builds custom ergonomic boards. They are often split (two halves) for better positioning and you can tilt and tent them. For example, have a look at the Dactyl Manuform or its variants (eg Tightyl), the kyria or corne. An exciting new development in the homebuilt keyboard scene is Bluetooth controllers, so the ecosystem is starting to embrace wireless too! Look for nice!nano.
  - banana_giraffe 6y ago
    Both of those are really good to hear. I've often dreamt of two things: Making a completely bespoke little bluetooth macro keyboard with maybe 5-10 keys on it. The other is probably further off, but I want movable keys. Not custom PCBs laid out how I want, but some way to move keys around, so I can say "today the escape key should be 2 mm down" and move the key. The first might happen, but sadly I suspect the second is very expensive, and has a customer base of maybe one person.
    - pl4nty 6y ago
      Both exist! Macros are a really common intro to custom mechs, since they're much easier than a full board, but off-the-shelf bluetooth is limited to the nice!nano currently. This board with movable keys isn't particularly expensive relative to other boards, but I haven't heard of any custom designs: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32955084832.html https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32955084832.html
      - banana_giraffe 6y ago
        That product literally looks like a dream come true for me, down to being able to rotate the keys individually. Thanks for the link! I'm off to order the mini.
        pl4nty 6y ago
        Enjoy! I use https://jhelvy.shinyapps.io/splitkbcompare/ https://jhelvy.shinyapps.io/splitkbcompare/ and https://old.reddit.com/r/ErgoMechKeyboards/ https://old.reddit.com/r/ErgoMechKeyboards/ for example layouts/designs, but be warned - it's quite a rabbit hole
  - smabie 6y ago
    I wasn't aware, those look like exactly what I'm looking for!
- jacobkania 6y ago
  I went for an ergodox when covid WFH started, to prioritize ergonomics... Loved it so much that I got the hotdox kit from Alpaca to build a second one with better switches (I went with the Zealios 68g, could go on a whole rant about how much I love these switches). I have 4 layers with all of the different symbols that I’d normally use on/near the home row, which means no more hand twisting while reaching for symbols. I didn’t ever notice discomfort after working for 8+ hours straight, until it was no longer there. Literally had no idea - but my wrists, arms, and hands all feel so much better these days.
- jd20 6y ago
  I'd really love to see more data on whether ergonomic keyboards actually work. From what I've read, it sounds like the results are mixed: I kind of want to try a split keyboard like the ergodox or Kinesis, but I feel I tend to cross-over a fair amount when typing, and I wonder if a split keyboard would be less efficient. I also overthink a lot about the position of frequently used keys like Cmd/Ctrl/Alt (on a Mac for instance), and what the optimal placement would be, and I feel like there's very little data about this topic.
  - dodobirdlord 6y ago
    I find the motion of rotating the hands outward past the neutral position, such as to strike the enter key on a standard keyboard, to be extremely unnatural and the source of major RSI. I switched over to an ergodox ez out of necessity, and found that moving all frequently used keys to the thumb pads or to layers near the home row was extremely helpful. I think is because it eliminated those frequent outward flexes and ensured that the wrists remain almost always in a neutral position. I think the health benefits of keeping the wrists neutrally positioned while typing is uncontroversial.
  - willtim 6y ago
    On my Kinesis Advantage I can type any letter whilst keeping my wrists straight, hands still and with much less finger movement than a regular keyboard. It completely cured my RSI and it hasn't returned in over 4 years. I realise this is anecdotal, but it's not really a surprise that a better key layout leads to less stretching and contortion and less RSI.
  - samatman 6y ago
    I've been using an Ergodox for a few years now, and the big thing I had to get used to is not cross-typing y. I still do it with a laptop keyboard, but after a week or so I got the hang of it. In the interim, I made the key I would accidentally hit a dead key. It's a layer key now and I don't hit it accidentally in a typical day. The ortholinear layout was dead simple for me, I gather that's not true for everyone but one way or the other, your fingers get used to it all after a couple weeks. I don't have any data on them actually working. But I feel a lot better standing, with my upper arms parallel to the ground, and hands shoulder-width apart, wrists slightly supinated. My shoulders stay loose and my neck and back stay straight. Any number of random aches and pains don't happen any more.
justicezyx 6y ago
None of these are ergonomic. I think that's missing the whole point of custom design, i.e., it misses the greatest opportunity to customize the functionality of a keyboard.
- keyboardaspie 6y ago
  The same kinds of people who custom keyboards are the ones doing UI design for open source software
  - spectramax 6y ago
    Lol not sure why but this is accurate. It’s like aesthetics got disease and a tumor or two.
- jzoch 6y ago
  thats not the point at all. You can customize the aesthetic, the functionality, the shape, size, tactility, and the ergonomics. Ergonomics are not the only goal.
- hinkley 6y ago
  Well the title now says mechanical not ergonomic. Did I miss a name change or is this a general comment Good switches are necessary but insufficient for an ergonomic keyboard and we do sometimes conflate them.
janwillemb 6y ago
None of these keyboards have a numeric keypad; these are for fancy design and not for heavy use.
- stingraycharles 6y ago
  Yes, I had to use a keyboard with a non-IBM layout (for lack of a better description) for a while at work, it’s absolutely maddening the location where some of the keys are. Impossible to get used to when you’re using a lot of shortcuts in eg editors.
- nso95 6y ago
  Many developers get along just fine with no numpad. We're not accountants.
  - spectramax 6y ago
    Dev myself. Can’t live without a numpad.
    - foepys 6y ago
      Also dev here. I miss the numpad maybe once a quarter but better ergonomics and posture make it worth it. Without a numpad I can keep the letter part of the keyboard right in front of me instead of slightly shifted to the left. My keyboard is also programmable so CapsLock+WASD are my arrow keys and once you have that down, you will never want to go back.
      - dodobirdlord 6y ago
        Likewise, ortholinear programmable keyboard. Holding down one of the left hand home-row keys turns a numpad-sized chunk of keys under the right hand into a numpad.
- wilsynet 6y ago
  I type all day long and have no need for a numeric keypad. I prefer having more real estate on my desk rather than occupy space with no purpose.
jd20 6y ago
A clarification: these are interviews with people who assemble custom keyboards, I was expecting chats with the people who actually design and produce custom keyboards (like yuktsi, Rama, Wilba, ZealPC, etc...) Still, very cool to see what people are building. I've just recently fallen down into the rabbit hole of custom keyboards, after my Apple Keyboard stopped working. As someone who spends almost half my life at a keyboard, I'm surprised it took this long for me to look into improving the tool I interact with most every day.
- jetpacktuxedo 6y ago
  > A clarification: these are interviews with people who assemble custom keyboards, I was expecting chats with the people who actually design and produce custom keyboards (like yuktsi, Rama, Wilba, ZealPC, etc...) At least one of them is with a board designer, the V4N4G0N one with Evan (formerly of TheVan Keyboards)
hinkley 6y ago
I really wanted to be a keyboard snob but it just didn’t stick. Mushy keys give me tendinitis on the backs of my hands. The cherry browns on my one keyboard were okay, but not worth twice an old school Microsoft natural. And people talk about the clacking bothering others but what about the clacking bothering me? My dirty secret is that the most comfortable keyboard I’ve ever used is the Apple wired USB keyboard they discontinued. Especially for face-rolling computer games. Hours and hours with no fatigue. I wish I’d started collecting them the moment they were discontinued. I only own three and have a habit of killing them with beverages every couple of years. I’m one accident from having a home keyboard and a work one and no backups. I don’t know why everyone wants keyboard with a long throw, like we are using typewriters. (Oddly though I’m the opposite for mice: give me a keyboard light as a feather and a mouse built like a neutron star)
- brundolf 6y ago
  > I don’t know why everyone wants keyboard with a long throw, like we are using typewriters. I think it's just a sensation thing. It feels and sounds satisfying to press a mechanism and hear a thunk with each keystroke. I don't think there's any practical purpose.
  - vladvasiliu 6y ago
    Can't speak for others, but for me it's not a question of satisfaction and I absolutely hate loud keyboards (even if it's mine). The attraction for mechanical keys, for me, comes from the fact that I can type without having to press hard on the keys and without bottoming out. For me, the Cherry Brown and similar ("tactile bump, no click") are the best. They're tolerable noise-wise and have enough feedback. Whenever I switch to my mac (2013 model) or work pc laptop (hp probook) I tend to miss a lot of keys because I don't press hard enough.
- lambdaloop 6y ago
  I feel the same way! I tried a couple of mechanical keyboards (including ergodox) but I found the clacking sounds, the long key travel time, and just the bulkiness of the keyboards to be uncomfortable. I found that there's a bunch of keyboards on Amazon that replicate the small keys. I'm currently using a wireless Jelly Comb keyboard but there's a bunch of similar ones. It's been my favorite so far!
onion2k 6y ago
One of the good things about remote working is not having to share an office with people who smash out features on mechanical keyboards as if they believe more decibels translate to better code.
- brundolf 6y ago
  Yep. I have a keyboard with Cherry MX Blues but I leave it at home. Once I had an officemate with a keyboard so loud I couldn't block it out with noise-cancelling headphones; I had to move to a different room. It's just inconsiderate when you're in a shared office.
- etaioinshrdlu 6y ago
  I like to joke when debugging "Did you reload your code hard enough?" in reference to typing, or clicking, very loudly...
- rutthenut 6y ago
  But now, with so many conf calls, you get to hear the loud keyboards which are positioned just in front of the mic :-o
  - onion2k 6y ago
    There's a really good gfx developer who live streams shader development who I stopped watching because of the keyboard noise. It's just so annoying.
spectramax 6y ago
Apple standard chiclet keyboard is what I use. Problem with MK is how much travel a key has - it tires your fingers out v
ashtonkem 6y ago
A few years ago I owned a WASD with cherry greens. Great switches, but otherwise a very standard keyboard. It died in an unfortunate encounter with a cup of coffee. As a replacement I got an Ergodox EZ to reduce hand strain. At the urging of my wife, who desperately wanted the clicks to stop, I got mine with brown equivalents to stop clicking. Browns are fine, but I really prefer greens or blues. Fast forward a year and my wife got a new job with a generous WFH stipend, and she too wants a nice ergonomic keyboard with macros so she can do things faster. And wouldn’t you freaking know it, she got her Kineses Freestyle with Cherry freaking blues. (I can actually change the switches in my Ergodox, I just haven’t gotten around to spending $50 on extra switches).
FpUser 6y ago
My all time favorite is Natural Ergonomic Keyboard 4000 from Microsoft. I can not tolerate small keyboards with many keys missing.
- brudgers 6y ago
  I am a fan too. But eventually the absence of an integrated pointing device was a deal breaker. If I have to use a mouse, the ergonomics of the keyboard are only part of the equation because I can’t use a mouse in my lap.
kbwhy 6y ago
What’s the point of having many of the same keyboards which are practically identical? The layout is the same. I totally understand ergonomic keyboards (I have Quefrency and Sinc for home and office), but clones of the same 60% Etc. layout with just different case maybe? Key caps are replaceable and if you get a kit with the switches you like, you have more or less seen it all.
- lovehashbrowns 6y ago
  Different appearance, different materials, different weights, different build quality, different keyboard features, and so on. For example, some of the keyboards have hot-swappable key switches. Some people just like to experiment with switches. And also the quality of a keyboard affects how the keys will sound. LED lighting or no LED lighting. There are also different types of layouts within 60%. Non-standard backspace keys, right shift keys, etc. As an example, one of the keyboards here features a Fn key to the right of the right Shift key. Lastly, these are a form of self-expression mixed with personal comfort tastes.

52 points by hellweaver666 6y ago

I would love to use a custom built keyboard, but my RSI makes it so I can only type on a Kinesis Advantage for extended periods of time. I'm surprised more people don't use them, the traditional keyboard layout makes very little sense. It's crazy how much inertia many sub-optimal things have.

jakecopp 6y ago
I didn't realise how exhausting typing on a normal staggered layout keyboard is until using a Kinesis Advantage, I love it to bits. Like try hitting the 'x' key with your ring finger (next to pinky) like you're "supposed" to on a MacBook Pro with your elbows out - that's the insanity I'm talking about!
Okkef 6y ago
There's a whole sub community online that builds custom ergonomic boards. They are often split (two halves) for better positioning and you can tilt and tent them. For example, have a look at the Dactyl Manuform or its variants (eg Tightyl), the kyria or corne. An exciting new development in the homebuilt keyboard scene is Bluetooth controllers, so the ecosystem is starting to embrace wireless too! Look for nice!nano.
- banana_giraffe 6y ago
  Both of those are really good to hear. I've often dreamt of two things: Making a completely bespoke little bluetooth macro keyboard with maybe 5-10 keys on it. The other is probably further off, but I want movable keys. Not custom PCBs laid out how I want, but some way to move keys around, so I can say "today the escape key should be 2 mm down" and move the key. The first might happen, but sadly I suspect the second is very expensive, and has a customer base of maybe one person.
  - pl4nty 6y ago
    Both exist! Macros are a really common intro to custom mechs, since they're much easier than a full board, but off-the-shelf bluetooth is limited to the nice!nano currently. This board with movable keys isn't particularly expensive relative to other boards, but I haven't heard of any custom designs: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32955084832.html https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32955084832.html
    - banana_giraffe 6y ago
      That product literally looks like a dream come true for me, down to being able to rotate the keys individually. Thanks for the link! I'm off to order the mini.
      - pl4nty 6y ago
        Enjoy! I use https://jhelvy.shinyapps.io/splitkbcompare/ https://jhelvy.shinyapps.io/splitkbcompare/ and https://old.reddit.com/r/ErgoMechKeyboards/ https://old.reddit.com/r/ErgoMechKeyboards/ for example layouts/designs, but be warned - it's quite a rabbit hole
- smabie 6y ago
  I wasn't aware, those look like exactly what I'm looking for!
jacobkania 6y ago
I went for an ergodox when covid WFH started, to prioritize ergonomics... Loved it so much that I got the hotdox kit from Alpaca to build a second one with better switches (I went with the Zealios 68g, could go on a whole rant about how much I love these switches). I have 4 layers with all of the different symbols that I’d normally use on/near the home row, which means no more hand twisting while reaching for symbols. I didn’t ever notice discomfort after working for 8+ hours straight, until it was no longer there. Literally had no idea - but my wrists, arms, and hands all feel so much better these days.
jd20 6y ago
I'd really love to see more data on whether ergonomic keyboards actually work. From what I've read, it sounds like the results are mixed: I kind of want to try a split keyboard like the ergodox or Kinesis, but I feel I tend to cross-over a fair amount when typing, and I wonder if a split keyboard would be less efficient. I also overthink a lot about the position of frequently used keys like Cmd/Ctrl/Alt (on a Mac for instance), and what the optimal placement would be, and I feel like there's very little data about this topic.
- dodobirdlord 6y ago
  I find the motion of rotating the hands outward past the neutral position, such as to strike the enter key on a standard keyboard, to be extremely unnatural and the source of major RSI. I switched over to an ergodox ez out of necessity, and found that moving all frequently used keys to the thumb pads or to layers near the home row was extremely helpful. I think is because it eliminated those frequent outward flexes and ensured that the wrists remain almost always in a neutral position. I think the health benefits of keeping the wrists neutrally positioned while typing is uncontroversial.
- willtim 6y ago
  On my Kinesis Advantage I can type any letter whilst keeping my wrists straight, hands still and with much less finger movement than a regular keyboard. It completely cured my RSI and it hasn't returned in over 4 years. I realise this is anecdotal, but it's not really a surprise that a better key layout leads to less stretching and contortion and less RSI.
- samatman 6y ago
  I've been using an Ergodox for a few years now, and the big thing I had to get used to is not cross-typing y. I still do it with a laptop keyboard, but after a week or so I got the hang of it. In the interim, I made the key I would accidentally hit a dead key. It's a layer key now and I don't hit it accidentally in a typical day. The ortholinear layout was dead simple for me, I gather that's not true for everyone but one way or the other, your fingers get used to it all after a couple weeks. I don't have any data on them actually working. But I feel a lot better standing, with my upper arms parallel to the ground, and hands shoulder-width apart, wrists slightly supinated. My shoulders stay loose and my neck and back stay straight. Any number of random aches and pains don't happen any more.

justicezyx 6y ago

None of these are ergonomic. I think that's missing the whole point of custom design, i.e., it misses the greatest opportunity to customize the functionality of a keyboard.

keyboardaspie 6y ago
The same kinds of people who custom keyboards are the ones doing UI design for open source software
- spectramax 6y ago
  Lol not sure why but this is accurate. It’s like aesthetics got disease and a tumor or two.
jzoch 6y ago
thats not the point at all. You can customize the aesthetic, the functionality, the shape, size, tactility, and the ergonomics. Ergonomics are not the only goal.
hinkley 6y ago
Well the title now says mechanical not ergonomic. Did I miss a name change or is this a general comment Good switches are necessary but insufficient for an ergonomic keyboard and we do sometimes conflate them.

janwillemb 6y ago

None of these keyboards have a numeric keypad; these are for fancy design and not for heavy use.

stingraycharles 6y ago
Yes, I had to use a keyboard with a non-IBM layout (for lack of a better description) for a while at work, it’s absolutely maddening the location where some of the keys are. Impossible to get used to when you’re using a lot of shortcuts in eg editors.
nso95 6y ago
Many developers get along just fine with no numpad. We're not accountants.
- spectramax 6y ago
  Dev myself. Can’t live without a numpad.
  - foepys 6y ago
    Also dev here. I miss the numpad maybe once a quarter but better ergonomics and posture make it worth it. Without a numpad I can keep the letter part of the keyboard right in front of me instead of slightly shifted to the left. My keyboard is also programmable so CapsLock+WASD are my arrow keys and once you have that down, you will never want to go back.
    - dodobirdlord 6y ago
      Likewise, ortholinear programmable keyboard. Holding down one of the left hand home-row keys turns a numpad-sized chunk of keys under the right hand into a numpad.
wilsynet 6y ago
I type all day long and have no need for a numeric keypad. I prefer having more real estate on my desk rather than occupy space with no purpose.

jd20 6y ago

A clarification: these are interviews with people who assemble custom keyboards, I was expecting chats with the people who actually design and produce custom keyboards (like yuktsi, Rama, Wilba, ZealPC, etc...) Still, very cool to see what people are building. I've just recently fallen down into the rabbit hole of custom keyboards, after my Apple Keyboard stopped working. As someone who spends almost half my life at a keyboard, I'm surprised it took this long for me to look into improving the tool I interact with most every day.

jetpacktuxedo 6y ago
> A clarification: these are interviews with people who assemble custom keyboards, I was expecting chats with the people who actually design and produce custom keyboards (like yuktsi, Rama, Wilba, ZealPC, etc...) At least one of them is with a board designer, the V4N4G0N one with Evan (formerly of TheVan Keyboards)

hinkley 6y ago

I really wanted to be a keyboard snob but it just didn’t stick. Mushy keys give me tendinitis on the backs of my hands. The cherry browns on my one keyboard were okay, but not worth twice an old school Microsoft natural. And people talk about the clacking bothering others but what about the clacking bothering me? My dirty secret is that the most comfortable keyboard I’ve ever used is the Apple wired USB keyboard they discontinued. Especially for face-rolling computer games. Hours and hours with no fatigue. I wish I’d started collecting them the moment they were discontinued. I only own three and have a habit of killing them with beverages every couple of years. I’m one accident from having a home keyboard and a work one and no backups. I don’t know why everyone wants keyboard with a long throw, like we are using typewriters. (Oddly though I’m the opposite for mice: give me a keyboard light as a feather and a mouse built like a neutron star)

brundolf 6y ago
> I don’t know why everyone wants keyboard with a long throw, like we are using typewriters. I think it's just a sensation thing. It feels and sounds satisfying to press a mechanism and hear a thunk with each keystroke. I don't think there's any practical purpose.
- vladvasiliu 6y ago
  Can't speak for others, but for me it's not a question of satisfaction and I absolutely hate loud keyboards (even if it's mine). The attraction for mechanical keys, for me, comes from the fact that I can type without having to press hard on the keys and without bottoming out. For me, the Cherry Brown and similar ("tactile bump, no click") are the best. They're tolerable noise-wise and have enough feedback. Whenever I switch to my mac (2013 model) or work pc laptop (hp probook) I tend to miss a lot of keys because I don't press hard enough.
lambdaloop 6y ago
I feel the same way! I tried a couple of mechanical keyboards (including ergodox) but I found the clacking sounds, the long key travel time, and just the bulkiness of the keyboards to be uncomfortable. I found that there's a bunch of keyboards on Amazon that replicate the small keys. I'm currently using a wireless Jelly Comb keyboard but there's a bunch of similar ones. It's been my favorite so far!

onion2k 6y ago

One of the good things about remote working is not having to share an office with people who smash out features on mechanical keyboards as if they believe more decibels translate to better code.

brundolf 6y ago
Yep. I have a keyboard with Cherry MX Blues but I leave it at home. Once I had an officemate with a keyboard so loud I couldn't block it out with noise-cancelling headphones; I had to move to a different room. It's just inconsiderate when you're in a shared office.
etaioinshrdlu 6y ago
I like to joke when debugging "Did you reload your code hard enough?" in reference to typing, or clicking, very loudly...
rutthenut 6y ago
But now, with so many conf calls, you get to hear the loud keyboards which are positioned just in front of the mic :-o
- onion2k 6y ago
  There's a really good gfx developer who live streams shader development who I stopped watching because of the keyboard noise. It's just so annoying.

spectramax 6y ago

Apple standard chiclet keyboard is what I use. Problem with MK is how much travel a key has - it tires your fingers out v

ashtonkem 6y ago

A few years ago I owned a WASD with cherry greens. Great switches, but otherwise a very standard keyboard. It died in an unfortunate encounter with a cup of coffee. As a replacement I got an Ergodox EZ to reduce hand strain. At the urging of my wife, who desperately wanted the clicks to stop, I got mine with brown equivalents to stop clicking. Browns are fine, but I really prefer greens or blues. Fast forward a year and my wife got a new job with a generous WFH stipend, and she too wants a nice ergonomic keyboard with macros so she can do things faster. And wouldn’t you freaking know it, she got her Kineses Freestyle with Cherry freaking blues. (I can actually change the switches in my Ergodox, I just haven’t gotten around to spending $50 on extra switches).

FpUser 6y ago

My all time favorite is Natural Ergonomic Keyboard 4000 from Microsoft. I can not tolerate small keyboards with many keys missing.

brudgers 6y ago
I am a fan too. But eventually the absence of an integrated pointing device was a deal breaker. If I have to use a mouse, the ergonomics of the keyboard are only part of the equation because I can’t use a mouse in my lap.

kbwhy 6y ago

What’s the point of having many of the same keyboards which are practically identical? The layout is the same. I totally understand ergonomic keyboards (I have Quefrency and Sinc for home and office), but clones of the same 60% Etc. layout with just different case maybe? Key caps are replaceable and if you get a kit with the switches you like, you have more or less seen it all.

lovehashbrowns 6y ago
Different appearance, different materials, different weights, different build quality, different keyboard features, and so on. For example, some of the keyboards have hot-swappable key switches. Some people just like to experiment with switches. And also the quality of a keyboard affects how the keys will sound. LED lighting or no LED lighting. There are also different types of layouts within 60%. Non-standard backspace keys, right shift keys, etc. As an example, one of the keyboards here features a Fn key to the right of the right Shift key. Lastly, these are a form of self-expression mixed with personal comfort tastes.