6 ms·

No, the cost to tax payers in Europe is less than what people in USA have to pay the college. This is because my University (in Europe) had no sport facilities

No, the cost to tax payers in Europe is less than what people in USA have to pay the college. This is because my University (in Europe) had no sport facilities whatsoever, not even a soccer field. It also had no dormitories, canteens, no fancy library, sport teams etc. It did teaching + research, and nothing else.

SilasX 6y ago
Right -- in the context of Europe, high quality means high education quality; it may not be high quality in the sense of all the frills Americans usually expect out of the college experience.
user5994461 6y ago
For reference, cost in France is about 11kE per year for undergraduate and 22kE per year for master in computer science engineering. That's what it costs the university per student, not what the student pays (up to 1k a year). This doesn't cover accommodation or canteen since that's not part of the university. I don't know what's the cost in the US but I don't imagine it's orders more. The worst number I heard from coworkers was 60k$ a year in NYC (that's easily triple income and taxes compared to France so not a straight comparison).
- pb7 6y ago
  That's roughly how much public in-state universities cost in the United States on average[0]. Some states are significantly cheaper. [0] https://www.valuepenguin.com/student-loans/average-cost-of-college https://www.valuepenguin.com/student-loans/average-cost-of-c...
  - sudosysgen 6y ago
    Wait. You're comparing total cost in France, to cost at the point of use excluding taxes in the US. Education in public in-state universities is also highly subsidized.
    - ericmay 6y ago
      Is it highly subsidized? Any reason to think that is the case?
      - sudosysgen 6y ago
        It is indeed highly subsidized, to the tune of billions a year. You can read the Financials online.
        ericmay 6y ago
        Do you mean subsidized in the sense of student loans backed by the government?
        sudosysgen 6y ago
        No. The link I was replying to was referring to State Universities. They are owned and partially financed by the government.
        ericmay 6y ago
        Sure. But what I'm wondering is what subsidies you're referring to. Are you talking about grants and loans that students get, or maybe federal grant money for research?
        sudosysgen 6y ago
        These organizations literally directly receive money from the government. Students grants are a factor too, but they are owned and financed in large part by the State. That's called a subsidy. They are losing money, that the taxpayer shoulders.
        ericmay 6y ago
        Ok. So I looked at the FY19 budget for one of the universities I attended and for the overall budget of $7.3 billion it's broken out like this (numbers are rounded). [1] Tuition and fees -> $1.8 bb Government appropriations (it looks like this is what you're referring to as direct subsidies?) -> $ 470 mm Grants and contracts -> $862 mm Sales & Services University -> $543 mm Sales & Services Health System -> $3.3 bb Sales & Services OSU Physicians -> $480 mm Gifts and Endowment -> $380 mm Negligible other items -> $100 mm or something. So what subsidies are you referring to? Happy to look at a different university if you want to provide an example. [1]https://busfin.osu.edu/sites/default/files/12_a_fy21_budget_plan.pdf https://busfin.osu.edu/sites/default/files/12_a_fy21_budget_... -edit- Unfortunately I can't reply, but I'm not sure why you're only considering government appropriations with respect to tuition instead of the entire budget. Seems a bit selective to me.
ericmay 6y ago
Idk. People say this but are sports the real cost driver here? Many sports programs in the US pay for themselves and more or might be close to break even. We also have Title IX (1) which in some cases will lead to increased costs. Not to mention we have, you guessed it, a Title IX coordinator at every university that has to comply with Title IX who probably makes $50,000 - $100,000. If you think about other programs at universities, you’ll see quite the glut of administrators. https://www.womenssportsfoundation.org/advocacy/what-is-title-ix/ https://www.womenssportsfoundation.org/advocacy/what-is-titl... (1) The US education system is really just screwed up by free, guaranteed government loans. If we just made loans dischargeable then most of our issues would go away overnight. The issue you have here though is that we are concerned about access to affording college for those who have to take out loans, but this route we have just makes college increasingly unaffordable. It’s a viscous cycle. I think stopping it is the way forward. Most likely sports are going away at US universities. Big football programs will stick around though because the make a killing and people generally love them. Men’s basketball too because it’s relatively affordable. For reference, as I’m watching Bloomberg there was a report that came out suggesting star quarterbacks at major Us football programs at the collegiate level should be compensated at around $2.4 million dollars. We won’t have a men’s rowing team, or women’s volleyball anymore though. Kind of sad since these are also used as Olympic training programs. But maybe we will change how we do things. I think the US will start losing a lot of sports talent though because the infrastructure isn’t there outside of the university system.
- watwut 6y ago
  Afaik, only few super winning sports programs are earning. The rest of them costs money.
  - ericmay 6y ago
    Probably 20-30 I’d say safely make money. For the others, it depends on how much it costs. Like if they are in the whole $100,000/year they could instead fire an administrator, or ask alumni for donations. I have to think most universities aren’t losing too much money or they’d cancel the sport already, but I think with COVID-19 this is going to happen across sports in college anyway,
nemothekid 6y ago
>had no sport facilities whatsoever, not even a soccer field. It also had no dormitories, canteens, no fancy library, sport teams etc. Sports teams and dorms are no where near the top of the ticket of University expenses. Many of the Ivies hardly invest in sports and still come with a 60k ticket. American private universities are more expensive because American universities hire more administrative faculty and pay them more. That’s largely where the money is going.
- srtjstjsj 6y ago
  Ticket price has nothing to do with budget. The schools have endowments and scholarship for rich students to pay more while poor students pay less.
- zamfi 6y ago
  > Many of the Ivies hardly invest in sports and still come with a 60k ticket Believe it or not, at some of those Ivies, the cost per student exceeds $70k/yr, and is covered by overhead on grants, endowment, and other donations.
Terr_ 6y ago
One theory goes that the whole "College ranking" apparatus has created a "race to the most affluent" situation, since high tuition costs have no negative effect on a College's ranking, and if you don't spend on facilities and things to up your ranking, then you'll lose customers to the competitor who does.
- chmod775 6y ago
  Aren't college rankings mostly using the bullshit "citation" metric, for which researchers optimize by forming citation rings? [1] [1] not to mention self-citations, which is probably half of all citations in the US vs roughly 1/4th of them in most other places: https://www.scimagojr.com/countryrank.php?order=au&ord=desc* https://www.scimagojr.com/countryrank.php?order=au&ord=desc*

SilasX 6y ago

Right -- in the context of Europe, high quality means high education quality; it may not be high quality in the sense of all the frills Americans usually expect out of the college experience.

user5994461 6y ago

For reference, cost in France is about 11kE per year for undergraduate and 22kE per year for master in computer science engineering. That's what it costs the university per student, not what the student pays (up to 1k a year). This doesn't cover accommodation or canteen since that's not part of the university. I don't know what's the cost in the US but I don't imagine it's orders more. The worst number I heard from coworkers was 60k$ a year in NYC (that's easily triple income and taxes compared to France so not a straight comparison).

pb7 6y ago
That's roughly how much public in-state universities cost in the United States on average[0]. Some states are significantly cheaper. [0] https://www.valuepenguin.com/student-loans/average-cost-of-college https://www.valuepenguin.com/student-loans/average-cost-of-c...
- sudosysgen 6y ago
  Wait. You're comparing total cost in France, to cost at the point of use excluding taxes in the US. Education in public in-state universities is also highly subsidized.
  - ericmay 6y ago
    Is it highly subsidized? Any reason to think that is the case?
    - sudosysgen 6y ago
      It is indeed highly subsidized, to the tune of billions a year. You can read the Financials online.
      - ericmay 6y ago
        Do you mean subsidized in the sense of student loans backed by the government?
        sudosysgen 6y ago
        No. The link I was replying to was referring to State Universities. They are owned and partially financed by the government.
        ericmay 6y ago
        Sure. But what I'm wondering is what subsidies you're referring to. Are you talking about grants and loans that students get, or maybe federal grant money for research?
        sudosysgen 6y ago
        These organizations literally directly receive money from the government. Students grants are a factor too, but they are owned and financed in large part by the State. That's called a subsidy. They are losing money, that the taxpayer shoulders.
        ericmay 6y ago
        Ok. So I looked at the FY19 budget for one of the universities I attended and for the overall budget of $7.3 billion it's broken out like this (numbers are rounded). [1] Tuition and fees -> $1.8 bb Government appropriations (it looks like this is what you're referring to as direct subsidies?) -> $ 470 mm Grants and contracts -> $862 mm Sales & Services University -> $543 mm Sales & Services Health System -> $3.3 bb Sales & Services OSU Physicians -> $480 mm Gifts and Endowment -> $380 mm Negligible other items -> $100 mm or something. So what subsidies are you referring to? Happy to look at a different university if you want to provide an example. [1]https://busfin.osu.edu/sites/default/files/12_a_fy21_budget_plan.pdf https://busfin.osu.edu/sites/default/files/12_a_fy21_budget_... -edit- Unfortunately I can't reply, but I'm not sure why you're only considering government appropriations with respect to tuition instead of the entire budget. Seems a bit selective to me.

ericmay 6y ago

Idk. People say this but are sports the real cost driver here? Many sports programs in the US pay for themselves and more or might be close to break even. We also have Title IX (1) which in some cases will lead to increased costs. Not to mention we have, you guessed it, a Title IX coordinator at every university that has to comply with Title IX who probably makes $50,000 - $100,000. If you think about other programs at universities, you’ll see quite the glut of administrators. https://www.womenssportsfoundation.org/advocacy/what-is-title-ix/ https://www.womenssportsfoundation.org/advocacy/what-is-titl... (1) The US education system is really just screwed up by free, guaranteed government loans. If we just made loans dischargeable then most of our issues would go away overnight. The issue you have here though is that we are concerned about access to affording college for those who have to take out loans, but this route we have just makes college increasingly unaffordable. It’s a viscous cycle. I think stopping it is the way forward. Most likely sports are going away at US universities. Big football programs will stick around though because the make a killing and people generally love them. Men’s basketball too because it’s relatively affordable. For reference, as I’m watching Bloomberg there was a report that came out suggesting star quarterbacks at major Us football programs at the collegiate level should be compensated at around $2.4 million dollars. We won’t have a men’s rowing team, or women’s volleyball anymore though. Kind of sad since these are also used as Olympic training programs. But maybe we will change how we do things. I think the US will start losing a lot of sports talent though because the infrastructure isn’t there outside of the university system.

watwut 6y ago
Afaik, only few super winning sports programs are earning. The rest of them costs money.
- ericmay 6y ago
  Probably 20-30 I’d say safely make money. For the others, it depends on how much it costs. Like if they are in the whole $100,000/year they could instead fire an administrator, or ask alumni for donations. I have to think most universities aren’t losing too much money or they’d cancel the sport already, but I think with COVID-19 this is going to happen across sports in college anyway,

nemothekid 6y ago

>had no sport facilities whatsoever, not even a soccer field. It also had no dormitories, canteens, no fancy library, sport teams etc. Sports teams and dorms are no where near the top of the ticket of University expenses. Many of the Ivies hardly invest in sports and still come with a 60k ticket. American private universities are more expensive because American universities hire more administrative faculty and pay them more. That’s largely where the money is going.

srtjstjsj 6y ago
Ticket price has nothing to do with budget. The schools have endowments and scholarship for rich students to pay more while poor students pay less.
zamfi 6y ago
> Many of the Ivies hardly invest in sports and still come with a 60k ticket Believe it or not, at some of those Ivies, the cost per student exceeds $70k/yr, and is covered by overhead on grants, endowment, and other donations.

Terr_ 6y ago

One theory goes that the whole "College ranking" apparatus has created a "race to the most affluent" situation, since high tuition costs have no negative effect on a College's ranking, and if you don't spend on facilities and things to up your ranking, then you'll lose customers to the competitor who does.

chmod775 6y ago
Aren't college rankings mostly using the bullshit "citation" metric, for which researchers optimize by forming citation rings? [1] [1] not to mention self-citations, which is probably half of all citations in the US vs roughly 1/4th of them in most other places: https://www.scimagojr.com/countryrank.php?order=au&ord=desc* https://www.scimagojr.com/countryrank.php?order=au&ord=desc*