5 ms·

Maybe because a lot of people on HN are small business owners, and unions take power away from business owners and can and will force you to do things to the de

by umvi 6y ago

Maybe because a lot of people on HN are small business owners, and unions take power away from business owners and can and will force you to do things to the detriment of your business if they deem it in the best interests of the union members.

heavyset_go 6y ago
The vast majority of people on HN are people who need to work to eat and keep a roof over their heads, and the companies they work for take power away from them, and will force them to do things to the detriment of themselves if it's deemed in the best interests of the company. A union is a company that represents the interests of workers in the same way that a company is an entity that represents the interests of capitalists. Besides, many people on HN work for tech companies like Adobe, Apple, Google, Intel, Intuit, Pixar, Lucasfilm or eBay, all of which were found guilty of colluding[1] to keep engineer salary below market value. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-Tech_Employee_Antitrust_Litigation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-Tech_Employee_Antitrust_L...
- PragmaticPulp 6y ago
  That lawsuit didn’t require unions, though. If anything, it’s a great example of how our industry can overcome these issues without unionization. People tend to forget that unions represent the existing employees, not aspiring hires. This can actually work to the detriment of juniors and newcomers to the industry. It can also work to the detriment of teams where it becomes intensely difficult to fire people who are legitimately underperforming. The public school unions keeping bad teachers on the payroll but keeping them idle in empty rooms is a prime example. Police unions defending bad cops is another very relevant example. If you’re an aspiring teacher or police officer with motivation to do well, why should those union employees take a spot on the job that you could otherwise occupy and do better? Switching the rules of the game to favor seniority doesn’t benefit people who rank low on the seniority ladder.
  - supercollision 6y ago
    One lawsuit was a Department of Justice antitrust investigation (quickly settled) that required a bunch of lawyers, discovery, and having the conduct run up against the Sherman antitrust act. I think a tech union is very unlikely but would rather things get fixed before they get that far. My understanding is that the related civil class action suit recouped small fractions of estimated lost wages, though there's a lot of hand-waving there and both sides are going to wave their hands differently. I might be mistaken; this didn't affect me too much, and I most mostly just amused how incredibly afraid of Steve Jobs everyone was.
    - hannasanarion 6y ago
      > I think a tech union is very unlikely but would rather things get fixed before they get that far. There is no need to wait for a "tech union" to unionize tech offices. Kickstarter unionized last year under the Office and Professional Employees International Union.
paxys 6y ago
Most of people on HN work at large tech companies. In my experience the majority consensus in the industry is that a union would do more harm than good, but of course that is infinitely debatable.
- josefx 6y ago
  > the majority consensus in the industry is that a union would do more harm than good Most people also think they are smarter than average. I have seen people that thought they were great at negotiating their own wages/benefits in a ritualized yearly pissing match with their boss only to be outdone by new hires. Lots of overinflated egos around that would rather rip their own arms of than pull on the same rope.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
bluedays 6y ago
I mentioned this a while ago and I was chastised for thinking there was a coordinated effort to astroturf on hackernews. I imagine you'll get the same treatment, followed by a barrage of comments because you don't follow the anti-union narrative that is being pushed here. Move along, nothing to see here.
wnevets 6y ago
>Maybe because a lot of people on HN are small business owners, A lot of small business owners who also happened to work for a union and had a bad experience? That seems like a lot for a site largely filled with software developers. Is HN more mainstream than I'm giving credit?
- oefrha 6y ago
  HN is not mainstream but has a diverse audience. The subset commenting on any story is a self-selected group that likely has more experience in or devotion to the topic. Find a thread about math or physics and you’ll find an outsized representation of mathematicians and physicists commenting; does that indicate the site is full of mathematicians and physicists? No, they’re just self-selected to comment. Same here.

by umvi 6y ago

heavyset_go 6y ago

The vast majority of people on HN are people who need to work to eat and keep a roof over their heads, and the companies they work for take power away from them, and will force them to do things to the detriment of themselves if it's deemed in the best interests of the company. A union is a company that represents the interests of workers in the same way that a company is an entity that represents the interests of capitalists. Besides, many people on HN work for tech companies like Adobe, Apple, Google, Intel, Intuit, Pixar, Lucasfilm or eBay, all of which were found guilty of colluding[1] to keep engineer salary below market value. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-Tech_Employee_Antitrust_Litigation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-Tech_Employee_Antitrust_L...

PragmaticPulp 6y ago
That lawsuit didn’t require unions, though. If anything, it’s a great example of how our industry can overcome these issues without unionization. People tend to forget that unions represent the existing employees, not aspiring hires. This can actually work to the detriment of juniors and newcomers to the industry. It can also work to the detriment of teams where it becomes intensely difficult to fire people who are legitimately underperforming. The public school unions keeping bad teachers on the payroll but keeping them idle in empty rooms is a prime example. Police unions defending bad cops is another very relevant example. If you’re an aspiring teacher or police officer with motivation to do well, why should those union employees take a spot on the job that you could otherwise occupy and do better? Switching the rules of the game to favor seniority doesn’t benefit people who rank low on the seniority ladder.
- supercollision 6y ago
  One lawsuit was a Department of Justice antitrust investigation (quickly settled) that required a bunch of lawyers, discovery, and having the conduct run up against the Sherman antitrust act. I think a tech union is very unlikely but would rather things get fixed before they get that far. My understanding is that the related civil class action suit recouped small fractions of estimated lost wages, though there's a lot of hand-waving there and both sides are going to wave their hands differently. I might be mistaken; this didn't affect me too much, and I most mostly just amused how incredibly afraid of Steve Jobs everyone was.
  - hannasanarion 6y ago
    > I think a tech union is very unlikely but would rather things get fixed before they get that far. There is no need to wait for a "tech union" to unionize tech offices. Kickstarter unionized last year under the Office and Professional Employees International Union.

paxys 6y ago

Most of people on HN work at large tech companies. In my experience the majority consensus in the industry is that a union would do more harm than good, but of course that is infinitely debatable.

josefx 6y ago
> the majority consensus in the industry is that a union would do more harm than good Most people also think they are smarter than average. I have seen people that thought they were great at negotiating their own wages/benefits in a ritualized yearly pissing match with their boss only to be outdone by new hires. Lots of overinflated egos around that would rather rip their own arms of than pull on the same rope.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

bluedays 6y ago

I mentioned this a while ago and I was chastised for thinking there was a coordinated effort to astroturf on hackernews. I imagine you'll get the same treatment, followed by a barrage of comments because you don't follow the anti-union narrative that is being pushed here. Move along, nothing to see here.

wnevets 6y ago

>Maybe because a lot of people on HN are small business owners, A lot of small business owners who also happened to work for a union and had a bad experience? That seems like a lot for a site largely filled with software developers. Is HN more mainstream than I'm giving credit?

oefrha 6y ago
HN is not mainstream but has a diverse audience. The subset commenting on any story is a self-selected group that likely has more experience in or devotion to the topic. Find a thread about math or physics and you’ll find an outsized representation of mathematicians and physicists commenting; does that indicate the site is full of mathematicians and physicists? No, they’re just self-selected to comment. Same here.