4 ms·

On the contrary, you need to defend the entire length of the track at all times from an enemy who can destroy any small part of it at any time and then just lea

On the contrary, you need to defend the entire length of the track at all times from an enemy who can destroy any small part of it at any time and then just leave the scene to try again later. Yes, it takes much more effort than a driver just deciding to go on a rampage, but against a determined adversary the train is at a huge disadvantage.

sudosysgen 6y ago
Derailing a train is an ordeal, though, and it's fairly easy to surveil against it. I'm fairly certain just blowing up the locomotive is less effort against modern networked rails.
- solarkraft 6y ago
  Anecdote time: I was in a train that hit a bunch of concrete slabs at medium speed (60 km/h?) and all I noticed was that it rapidly stopped. But that was a relatively undetermined attack. What if someone welds something directly on to the rails or cuts something out? It may get noticed in tens of minutes, but is that really fast enough? Similarly it seems like it wouldn't be insanely hard to poison water supplies, doing some damage before it gets shut off or destroy other bits of infrastructure (I hear it has been tried with the electricity grid). Society is a fairly complex machine and I'm surprised how well it works.
  - sudosysgen 6y ago
    Cutting out the rail is unlikely to cause huge damage, and welding something directly to the rail would take quite some time and be noticeable. Just putting a few sensors every few meters and networking them then stopping the train would work. But I am also surprised how well it works. I think people just don't suck as much as one would expect.
    - jimktrains2 6y ago
      Cutting the rail would also break the track circuit and force signals to red.
    - Xylakant 6y ago
      > A few sensors every few meters. The US has a total length of about 300 000km of railway network and that probably counts multi-track connections once. And it doesn’t include subway or anything. So that would be a lot of sensors that need to be placed and maintained. And you’d need to except some failure of sensors, so you cannot just stop if a single sensor goes haywire. It’s certainly not impossible, but also not trivially done.
  - Mountain_Skies 6y ago
    Years ago I knew someone who worked for the local waterworks and asked what they do to prevent the water supply from being poisoned. He said while they do test on a regular basis, the real security is in the dilution factor as you'd need a really large quantity of any poison to effectively contaminate a reservoir. A biological contaminate that reproduces would be an easier attack but I'm guessing that's where the frequent testing comes in to catch it before it gets to a deadly concentration.
- jcrawfordor 6y ago
  Interference with railroad property, primarily oriented towards theft and even hijacking trains, was a very serious problem for much of railroad history. Ongoing issues with everything from train robberies to theft of the actual rails is what lead to major railroads forming some of the first nationwide law enforcement organizations. The FBI, for example, was directly modeled on the Union Pacific Railroad Police. While train robberies are now decidedly rare, railroad police still exist today to patrol and protect the right-of-way, particularly in cities where theft, vandalism, and interference remains a real safety hazard. While less glamorous than train robbery, a common problem today is the theft of metal from signals, which disables the signals and creates a possible safety hazard.
  - sudosysgen 6y ago
    Agreed. It was decidedly a big problem in the past.
  - Mountain_Skies 6y ago
    A used rocket launcher was found next to the tracks for the transit system in Atlanta a few years back. Don't know if they ever found out how it got there but it certainly gave some uneasiness that there might be someone around looking to blow up passing passenger rail cars.
    - throwaway0a5e 6y ago
      >Don't know if they ever found out how it got there "I don't want the ATF to shoot my dog" <proceeds to dump spent launcher tube they stole from work wherever is convenient>
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- throwaway0a5e 6y ago
  >Derailing a train is an ordeal, though, They make train de-railers specifically to protect work crews in rail yards. Someone who doesn't care about removing it later could just weld a similar shape (a slice of L channel would probably work in a pinch) to a track with some batteries. It should only take about 30sec if you walk up to the track ready to go.

sudosysgen 6y ago

Derailing a train is an ordeal, though, and it's fairly easy to surveil against it. I'm fairly certain just blowing up the locomotive is less effort against modern networked rails.

solarkraft 6y ago
Anecdote time: I was in a train that hit a bunch of concrete slabs at medium speed (60 km/h?) and all I noticed was that it rapidly stopped. But that was a relatively undetermined attack. What if someone welds something directly on to the rails or cuts something out? It may get noticed in tens of minutes, but is that really fast enough? Similarly it seems like it wouldn't be insanely hard to poison water supplies, doing some damage before it gets shut off or destroy other bits of infrastructure (I hear it has been tried with the electricity grid). Society is a fairly complex machine and I'm surprised how well it works.
- sudosysgen 6y ago
  Cutting out the rail is unlikely to cause huge damage, and welding something directly to the rail would take quite some time and be noticeable. Just putting a few sensors every few meters and networking them then stopping the train would work. But I am also surprised how well it works. I think people just don't suck as much as one would expect.
  - jimktrains2 6y ago
    Cutting the rail would also break the track circuit and force signals to red.
  - Xylakant 6y ago
    > A few sensors every few meters. The US has a total length of about 300 000km of railway network and that probably counts multi-track connections once. And it doesn’t include subway or anything. So that would be a lot of sensors that need to be placed and maintained. And you’d need to except some failure of sensors, so you cannot just stop if a single sensor goes haywire. It’s certainly not impossible, but also not trivially done.
- Mountain_Skies 6y ago
  Years ago I knew someone who worked for the local waterworks and asked what they do to prevent the water supply from being poisoned. He said while they do test on a regular basis, the real security is in the dilution factor as you'd need a really large quantity of any poison to effectively contaminate a reservoir. A biological contaminate that reproduces would be an easier attack but I'm guessing that's where the frequent testing comes in to catch it before it gets to a deadly concentration.
jcrawfordor 6y ago
Interference with railroad property, primarily oriented towards theft and even hijacking trains, was a very serious problem for much of railroad history. Ongoing issues with everything from train robberies to theft of the actual rails is what lead to major railroads forming some of the first nationwide law enforcement organizations. The FBI, for example, was directly modeled on the Union Pacific Railroad Police. While train robberies are now decidedly rare, railroad police still exist today to patrol and protect the right-of-way, particularly in cities where theft, vandalism, and interference remains a real safety hazard. While less glamorous than train robbery, a common problem today is the theft of metal from signals, which disables the signals and creates a possible safety hazard.
- sudosysgen 6y ago
  Agreed. It was decidedly a big problem in the past.
- Mountain_Skies 6y ago
  A used rocket launcher was found next to the tracks for the transit system in Atlanta a few years back. Don't know if they ever found out how it got there but it certainly gave some uneasiness that there might be someone around looking to blow up passing passenger rail cars.
  - throwaway0a5e 6y ago
    >Don't know if they ever found out how it got there "I don't want the ATF to shoot my dog" <proceeds to dump spent launcher tube they stole from work wherever is convenient>
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
throwaway0a5e 6y ago
>Derailing a train is an ordeal, though, They make train de-railers specifically to protect work crews in rail yards. Someone who doesn't care about removing it later could just weld a similar shape (a slice of L channel would probably work in a pinch) to a track with some batteries. It should only take about 30sec if you walk up to the track ready to go.