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This is no different than the human profiling that Police engage in. Except now we have logs and we can track the decisions that are being made. We can adjust t

by jbob2000 6y ago

This is no different than the human profiling that Police engage in. Except now we have logs and we can track the decisions that are being made. We can adjust the algorithms rather than re-train humans. We can replace an algorithm quickly if it doesn't give us the results we want, whereas removing bad cops takes years, if it's even possible. Secondly, Canadian police operate differently than American ones. They aren't perfect, but don't read this article with the lens that American media has shaped for you about their own police forces.

colejohnson66 6y ago
You’re right: there is no difference; they both don’t work and are unethical. The idea that someone may commit a crime based on things they are doing is abhorrent. It runs against the idea of innocent until proven guilty. It’s the same idea as “violent video games cause violent people;” It’s not true. If you play an online FPS like COD, should we be watching you more closely because you may end up shooting up some place? EDIT: previously said “guilty until proven innocent”
- xyzzy_plugh 6y ago
  Where in TFA do they mention persecution of anyone who hasn't yet committed a crime? I don't necessarily agree with mass-surveillance, but how does this differ significantly from "putting more patrol cars in high-crime neighbourhoods"?
  - colejohnson66 6y ago
    I’m not referencing persecution, but surveillance. I’ll admit that it is a gray area. But dubious or outright false criteria are used all the time until a court orders the police to stop. As for “putting more patrol cars in high-crime neighborhoods,” that is somewhat different IMO because a high-crime neighborhood actually commits more crime (assuming accurate reporting). But, for example, “plays violent video games,” is a meaningless statistic with no correlation to reality.
  - stinkytaco 6y ago
    Part of the argument of the "abolish the police" movement is that putting cars in high-crime neighborhoods becomes as self fulfilling prophecy. More police mean more crimes, even for slight infractions that someone in a lower crime neighborhood (read: white and middle class) would likely get away with. I think the issues here are much more nuanced than rhetoric can encompass, but the problem with preventative policing strategies is that they seem to find a way to justify themselves, making them ultimately self defeating and that perhaps preventative policing should be replaced with other preventative measures.
    - themaninthedark 6y ago
      Somehow a neighborhood gets the label "High Crime". If the label is created due to the sum of reports from community and reports from officers, we could remove the officer generated reports to create a less biased label.
    - ghostpepper 6y ago
      I think the policing problems of the US may not be applicable to Canadian cities such as Vancouver (referenced in the article as being tracked using https://geodash.vpd.ca https://geodash.vpd.ca) since the vast majority of crimes in Vancouver are property crimes, and thus likely citizen-reported. That being said it does feel like violent crime is increasing here, as the COVID pandemic has exacerbated the already-ongoing opioid public health emergency.
    - pbhjpbhj 6y ago
      >More police mean more crimes, even for slight infractions // That's not a given, unless you send the police in to arrest people for 'slight infractions'. It's not a necessary outcome.
    - unishark 6y ago
      I would assume the algorithm predicts the actual type of crime, or at least category (e.g. violent versus theft versus moving violation). Then it's still up to the department which crimes to target (which I really hope would be the crimes with victims).
    - 6y ago
- stinkytaco 6y ago
  I would not normally be pedantic, but: > It runs against the idea of guilty until proven innocent. I think this is not what you mean?
  - colejohnson66 6y ago
    You’re right; I had a brain fart. Fixed. Thank you.
- bluntfang 6y ago
  >If you play an online FPS like COD, should we be watching you more closely because you may end up shooting up some place? This ship has kinda sailed, no? how many lists do you think you're on?
  - colejohnson66 6y ago
    The ship may have sailed, but that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t push back against further abuses of power. It’s easy to give more power to them, but much harder to remove it.
    - bluntfang 6y ago
      We've been trying to push back on cops murdering black people for like 6 months now. The ones with the monopoly on violence aren't really interested.
- jbob2000 6y ago
  You aren't contributing honestly. The police systems work, but they have problems. And again, don't view Canadian policing with an American lens. Toronto, for example, has an independent division of police called the SIU, Special Investigations Unit. Any time an officer is involved in a violent altercation, the SIU is onsite and investigating. Not perfect, but better. They also have a mental health unit that responds to non-violent calls where people are in distress. Again, not perfect, but better. Toronto and Vancouver both operate safe injection sites. Toronto recently put up hundreds of homeless people into vacant apartments to get them off the street. All this to say, I don't see these programs in the US. You guys aren't even trying to improve your Police. Don't view canadian police with an American lens.
  - refurb 6y ago
    As someone who experience with both Canadian and US police, I think the differences are less than they appear. Especially when you take into account Canada has 1/10th the US population (so you’d expect 1/10th of the incidents). I’ve had several friends who have been tuned up by either the RCMP or provincial police. Sure, you’re less likely to get shot than in the US, but my anecdotal experience suggests there are plenty of bad apples in Canada. Hell, they are still trying to clean up the RCMP. You see some pretty egregious behavior in the small town detatchments.
  - manbackharry 6y ago
    I'm not sure you want to look at the SIU as some paragon of justice holding police to account. The SIU is not a division of the police, being under the purview of the provincial government, but it sure is staffed by a whole lot of former police (nearly all white too) who seem to have no problem finding other police innocent of any wrongdoing. The most recent stats I read were that 97% of cases are cleared without charges and you can count on 1 hand the number of cops who actually went to jail over their 30 year existence. Their "mental health unit" didn't do much to save Regis Korchinski-Paquet, and the feckless SIU wasn't much better in investigating. They also don't deserve any credit for the current investigation of Ejaz Choudry's murder, another person with mental health problems being "assisted" by police while in distress. Absolutely police systems work, as long as you're not on the side that's being policed.
- luckylion 6y ago
  > The idea that someone may commit a crime based on things they are doing is abhorrent. It runs against the idea of innocent until proven guilty. That's nonsense, it has nothing to do with the presumption of innocence, that only comes into play at a trial. Law enforcement often looks at things that aren't crimes to predict crimes. An obvious example: people grooming minors online. It's totally legal to talk to a twelve-year-old on the internet. It's totally legal to meet twelve-year-olds you've talked to on the internet. But it's highly suspicious when you're 30, and if the police hears about it, they'll very much be interested in checking that out, even though you haven't committed any crimes yet. It's a different question whether these systems look at things that are strong predictors of criminal activity or not.
- chard_slicks_ 6y ago
  I agree with the unethical part but I'm not so sure about the statement that they don't work. Check out this video [0] which talks about profiling at Ben Gurion airport. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Y1kJpHBn50 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Y1kJpHBn50
- pbhjpbhj 6y ago
  So, car insurance should be the same price for everyone as no one is more likely to be an at-fault cause of an accident?

colejohnson66 6y ago

You’re right: there is no difference; they both don’t work and are unethical. The idea that someone may commit a crime based on things they are doing is abhorrent. It runs against the idea of innocent until proven guilty. It’s the same idea as “violent video games cause violent people;” It’s not true. If you play an online FPS like COD, should we be watching you more closely because you may end up shooting up some place? EDIT: previously said “guilty until proven innocent”

xyzzy_plugh 6y ago
Where in TFA do they mention persecution of anyone who hasn't yet committed a crime? I don't necessarily agree with mass-surveillance, but how does this differ significantly from "putting more patrol cars in high-crime neighbourhoods"?
- colejohnson66 6y ago
  I’m not referencing persecution, but surveillance. I’ll admit that it is a gray area. But dubious or outright false criteria are used all the time until a court orders the police to stop. As for “putting more patrol cars in high-crime neighborhoods,” that is somewhat different IMO because a high-crime neighborhood actually commits more crime (assuming accurate reporting). But, for example, “plays violent video games,” is a meaningless statistic with no correlation to reality.
- stinkytaco 6y ago
  Part of the argument of the "abolish the police" movement is that putting cars in high-crime neighborhoods becomes as self fulfilling prophecy. More police mean more crimes, even for slight infractions that someone in a lower crime neighborhood (read: white and middle class) would likely get away with. I think the issues here are much more nuanced than rhetoric can encompass, but the problem with preventative policing strategies is that they seem to find a way to justify themselves, making them ultimately self defeating and that perhaps preventative policing should be replaced with other preventative measures.
  - themaninthedark 6y ago
    Somehow a neighborhood gets the label "High Crime". If the label is created due to the sum of reports from community and reports from officers, we could remove the officer generated reports to create a less biased label.
  - ghostpepper 6y ago
    I think the policing problems of the US may not be applicable to Canadian cities such as Vancouver (referenced in the article as being tracked using https://geodash.vpd.ca https://geodash.vpd.ca) since the vast majority of crimes in Vancouver are property crimes, and thus likely citizen-reported. That being said it does feel like violent crime is increasing here, as the COVID pandemic has exacerbated the already-ongoing opioid public health emergency.
  - pbhjpbhj 6y ago
    >More police mean more crimes, even for slight infractions // That's not a given, unless you send the police in to arrest people for 'slight infractions'. It's not a necessary outcome.
  - unishark 6y ago
    I would assume the algorithm predicts the actual type of crime, or at least category (e.g. violent versus theft versus moving violation). Then it's still up to the department which crimes to target (which I really hope would be the crimes with victims).
  - 6y ago
stinkytaco 6y ago
I would not normally be pedantic, but: > It runs against the idea of guilty until proven innocent. I think this is not what you mean?
- colejohnson66 6y ago
  You’re right; I had a brain fart. Fixed. Thank you.
bluntfang 6y ago
>If you play an online FPS like COD, should we be watching you more closely because you may end up shooting up some place? This ship has kinda sailed, no? how many lists do you think you're on?
- colejohnson66 6y ago
  The ship may have sailed, but that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t push back against further abuses of power. It’s easy to give more power to them, but much harder to remove it.
  - bluntfang 6y ago
    We've been trying to push back on cops murdering black people for like 6 months now. The ones with the monopoly on violence aren't really interested.
jbob2000 6y ago
You aren't contributing honestly. The police systems work, but they have problems. And again, don't view Canadian policing with an American lens. Toronto, for example, has an independent division of police called the SIU, Special Investigations Unit. Any time an officer is involved in a violent altercation, the SIU is onsite and investigating. Not perfect, but better. They also have a mental health unit that responds to non-violent calls where people are in distress. Again, not perfect, but better. Toronto and Vancouver both operate safe injection sites. Toronto recently put up hundreds of homeless people into vacant apartments to get them off the street. All this to say, I don't see these programs in the US. You guys aren't even trying to improve your Police. Don't view canadian police with an American lens.
- refurb 6y ago
  As someone who experience with both Canadian and US police, I think the differences are less than they appear. Especially when you take into account Canada has 1/10th the US population (so you’d expect 1/10th of the incidents). I’ve had several friends who have been tuned up by either the RCMP or provincial police. Sure, you’re less likely to get shot than in the US, but my anecdotal experience suggests there are plenty of bad apples in Canada. Hell, they are still trying to clean up the RCMP. You see some pretty egregious behavior in the small town detatchments.
- manbackharry 6y ago
  I'm not sure you want to look at the SIU as some paragon of justice holding police to account. The SIU is not a division of the police, being under the purview of the provincial government, but it sure is staffed by a whole lot of former police (nearly all white too) who seem to have no problem finding other police innocent of any wrongdoing. The most recent stats I read were that 97% of cases are cleared without charges and you can count on 1 hand the number of cops who actually went to jail over their 30 year existence. Their "mental health unit" didn't do much to save Regis Korchinski-Paquet, and the feckless SIU wasn't much better in investigating. They also don't deserve any credit for the current investigation of Ejaz Choudry's murder, another person with mental health problems being "assisted" by police while in distress. Absolutely police systems work, as long as you're not on the side that's being policed.
luckylion 6y ago
> The idea that someone may commit a crime based on things they are doing is abhorrent. It runs against the idea of innocent until proven guilty. That's nonsense, it has nothing to do with the presumption of innocence, that only comes into play at a trial. Law enforcement often looks at things that aren't crimes to predict crimes. An obvious example: people grooming minors online. It's totally legal to talk to a twelve-year-old on the internet. It's totally legal to meet twelve-year-olds you've talked to on the internet. But it's highly suspicious when you're 30, and if the police hears about it, they'll very much be interested in checking that out, even though you haven't committed any crimes yet. It's a different question whether these systems look at things that are strong predictors of criminal activity or not.
chard_slicks_ 6y ago
I agree with the unethical part but I'm not so sure about the statement that they don't work. Check out this video [0] which talks about profiling at Ben Gurion airport. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Y1kJpHBn50 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Y1kJpHBn50
pbhjpbhj 6y ago
So, car insurance should be the same price for everyone as no one is more likely to be an at-fault cause of an accident?