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I was once rejected because my one-window app didn’t have a Minimize button...for a game...that primarily runs in Full Screen. Other rejections were at least a

I was once rejected because my one-window app didn’t have a Minimize button...for a game...that primarily runs in Full Screen. Other rejections were at least as pointless, every time leaving a bad taste in my mouth and making me wonder why they wasted as much time as they did. The breaking point for me was when the reviewer refused to allow my minor update in because it “crashed” in an unreleased minor OS update that I literally could not acquire at the time. I removed my app from the Mac App Store the same day and haven’t been back. It is a petty, pointless, and infuriating experience, which wouldn’t bother me so much if it wasn’t abundantly clear how much trash still makes it into the store and how inconsistent they are. I recommend that everyone use the “suggestion” box to suggest removing App Review entirely.

wp381640 6y ago
If it's ever revealed that app reviewers have rejection quotas or some other bullshit internal metric that is driving this I would be the least surprised
- krspykrm 6y ago
  Internal metrics, yes. If another reviewer finds an issue in an app that you reviewed, then you get your score docked, so reviewers have an incentive to whine about everything, since there's no penalty for bringing up issues that aren't actually issues and wasting everyone's time.
  - _qulr 6y ago
    Is this speculation, or do you have insider knowledge?
Reason077 6y ago
I think the first reason is a legitimate criteria. Any app that has a window is definitely expected to have a minimise button - it's very strange behaviour if it doesn't, and even games that normally run full screen should have this button when placed in windowed mode. The second reason certainly sounds infuriating, but it's odd that the reviewer had access to an OS update that you didn't. In general, a crash on the latest OS update is a good reason for rejection because you're going to have to fix it sooner or later anyway. Better to fix it now rather than have to come back to it later.
- makecheck 6y ago
  Well the worst part was, their own Human Interface Guidelines even say: “These options are usually visible, but can be hidden as a group, such as......, or individually disabled, such as when a full-screen app can't be minimized. ...... A title bar should be visible, but can be hidden in an immersive app like a game.” Either way, this wouldn’t be in the top 1000 reasons for someone to request a refund for a game on the store so why is Apple even concerning itself?
  - chuckdries 6y ago
    Yeah, why provide an API to disable the minimize button if they're going to reject your app for using it
    - mlyle 6y ago
      Because you might have an occasional transient window where it's legitimate to disable minimization but you shouldn't do this for main app windows.
    - oneplane 6y ago
      Because you might use it in an app that you are not going to distribute via the public application stores. It's also possible that the reviewer made a mistake.
      - munk-a 6y ago
        I don't buy this - if you add a feature to software you know it's going to get used - if they needed it for internal stuff they could add it in some private library. And, if it's something people want so bad that you'd allow it for non-published applications then you clearly need to solve it by enabling or offering some sort of replacement for published applications.
        swiftcoder 6y ago
        The underlying API is a decade or so older than the current version of the human interface guidelines. It's entirely possible that if they were writing the API today, they'd leave that capability out.
jaywalk 6y ago
If your game supports a windowed mode (which it certainly sounds like it does) then I'd agree that a minimize button would be expected.
- addicted 6y ago
  Sure it should. I think that’s good UI. Is it the App Review process’s role to be the arbiter of what is and isn’t good UI? Should it be the App Review process’s goal today do this?
  - WoodenChair 6y ago
    > Is it the App Review process’s role to be the arbiter of what is and isn’t good UI? When it comes to standard OS conventions, like the minimize button, yes. I hope they would also reject a missing “Quit” menu item. Hurts accessibility to not follow standard conventions.
    - JadeNB 6y ago
      > When it comes to standard OS conventions, like the minimize button, yes. I hope they would also reject a missing “Quit” menu item. Hurts accessibility to not follow standard conventions. Although Chrome's nonsense with ⌘Q, and Adobe's messing with … everything … indicates that you can misbehave on a fundamental level as long as you're a sufficiently powerful actor.
      - WoodenChair 6y ago
        Chrome is not in the Mac App Store so does not go through review.
        JadeNB 6y ago
        Good point. Adobe Acrobat (which is what I had in mind) also doesn't seem to be.
  - 6y ago
the_gipsy 6y ago
> I removed my app from the Mac App Store the same day and haven’t been back. This is the only winning move.
- wolco 6y ago
  Along with a charge back for a recent developer subscription.
  - lilyball 6y ago
    Which Apple will presumably appeal and and win, because the charge was legitimate.
    - saagarjha 6y ago
      Even if they don't, say goodbye to being able to purchase anything from Apple ever again.
      - ric2b 6y ago
        Doesn't sound like a big problem. It's a big company but quite easy to avoid.
    - lmm 6y ago
      What if Apple's review process turned out not to be as described?
- mypalmike 6y ago
  How about a nice game of chess?
mleonhard 6y ago
You could have asked the reviewer for the crash report, looked for access to the OS update, looked for someone with the OS update who could test your app, waited until the OS update was released, or simply submitted your app update again in hopes of getting a more lenient or helpful reviewer. Why didn't you do those things? I've been in similar situations many times and made poor decisions. In my case, I made those poor choices because of poor mental habits and low emotional awareness. About 5 years ago, I started spending effort to increase my EQ and mental habits. I consulted a therapist regularly for several years, read Marshall Rosenberg's Non-violent Communication, learned meditation at a free 10-day silent retreat, and talked with people close to me about my emotions and mental habits. I occasionally ask people close to me for feedback on my attitude and behavior. All of this effort as paid off. Compared to 5 years ago, I have more stable relationships, fewer and shorter arguments, fewer days lost to playing unhappy mind-movies, and more work productivity. I urge you to invest more effort in your EQ skills. EDIT: s/same situation/similar situations/
- mleonhard 6y ago
  If you think my comment doesn't contribute to the discussion, please tell me why.
  - saagarjha 6y ago
    Probably because the app was tested on a prerelease version of macOS and you're digging into the developer for having poor EQ.
    - mleonhard 6y ago
      The developer got frustrated and gave up. I did that a lot. After I worked on improving my EQ, I get frustrated/angry and give up less often. Therefore I think getting frustrated/angry and giving up is a sign of poor EQ. This is based on my personal experience. Important life decisions (like cancelling a project) are better made based on deep personal values, not as reactions to emotions.
cnst 6y ago
> I recommend that everyone use the “suggestion” box to suggest removing App Review entirely. Probably not worth paying 99 USD/year just to make such a suggestion. Just for those folks who aren't aware that you actually have to pay Apple every year for the "privilege" of having your app submissions rejected for such random reasons -- even if your app is entirely free and non-commercial.

wp381640 6y ago

If it's ever revealed that app reviewers have rejection quotas or some other bullshit internal metric that is driving this I would be the least surprised

krspykrm 6y ago
Internal metrics, yes. If another reviewer finds an issue in an app that you reviewed, then you get your score docked, so reviewers have an incentive to whine about everything, since there's no penalty for bringing up issues that aren't actually issues and wasting everyone's time.
- _qulr 6y ago
  Is this speculation, or do you have insider knowledge?

Reason077 6y ago

I think the first reason is a legitimate criteria. Any app that has a window is definitely expected to have a minimise button - it's very strange behaviour if it doesn't, and even games that normally run full screen should have this button when placed in windowed mode. The second reason certainly sounds infuriating, but it's odd that the reviewer had access to an OS update that you didn't. In general, a crash on the latest OS update is a good reason for rejection because you're going to have to fix it sooner or later anyway. Better to fix it now rather than have to come back to it later.

makecheck 6y ago
Well the worst part was, their own Human Interface Guidelines even say: “These options are usually visible, but can be hidden as a group, such as......, or individually disabled, such as when a full-screen app can't be minimized. ...... A title bar should be visible, but can be hidden in an immersive app like a game.” Either way, this wouldn’t be in the top 1000 reasons for someone to request a refund for a game on the store so why is Apple even concerning itself?
- chuckdries 6y ago
  Yeah, why provide an API to disable the minimize button if they're going to reject your app for using it
  - mlyle 6y ago
    Because you might have an occasional transient window where it's legitimate to disable minimization but you shouldn't do this for main app windows.
  - oneplane 6y ago
    Because you might use it in an app that you are not going to distribute via the public application stores. It's also possible that the reviewer made a mistake.
    - munk-a 6y ago
      I don't buy this - if you add a feature to software you know it's going to get used - if they needed it for internal stuff they could add it in some private library. And, if it's something people want so bad that you'd allow it for non-published applications then you clearly need to solve it by enabling or offering some sort of replacement for published applications.
      - swiftcoder 6y ago
        The underlying API is a decade or so older than the current version of the human interface guidelines. It's entirely possible that if they were writing the API today, they'd leave that capability out.

jaywalk 6y ago

If your game supports a windowed mode (which it certainly sounds like it does) then I'd agree that a minimize button would be expected.

addicted 6y ago
Sure it should. I think that’s good UI. Is it the App Review process’s role to be the arbiter of what is and isn’t good UI? Should it be the App Review process’s goal today do this?
- WoodenChair 6y ago
  > Is it the App Review process’s role to be the arbiter of what is and isn’t good UI? When it comes to standard OS conventions, like the minimize button, yes. I hope they would also reject a missing “Quit” menu item. Hurts accessibility to not follow standard conventions.
  - JadeNB 6y ago
    > When it comes to standard OS conventions, like the minimize button, yes. I hope they would also reject a missing “Quit” menu item. Hurts accessibility to not follow standard conventions. Although Chrome's nonsense with ⌘Q, and Adobe's messing with … everything … indicates that you can misbehave on a fundamental level as long as you're a sufficiently powerful actor.
    - WoodenChair 6y ago
      Chrome is not in the Mac App Store so does not go through review.
      - JadeNB 6y ago
        Good point. Adobe Acrobat (which is what I had in mind) also doesn't seem to be.
- 6y ago

the_gipsy 6y ago

> I removed my app from the Mac App Store the same day and haven’t been back. This is the only winning move.

wolco 6y ago
Along with a charge back for a recent developer subscription.
- lilyball 6y ago
  Which Apple will presumably appeal and and win, because the charge was legitimate.
  - saagarjha 6y ago
    Even if they don't, say goodbye to being able to purchase anything from Apple ever again.
    - ric2b 6y ago
      Doesn't sound like a big problem. It's a big company but quite easy to avoid.
  - lmm 6y ago
    What if Apple's review process turned out not to be as described?
mypalmike 6y ago
How about a nice game of chess?

mleonhard 6y ago

You could have asked the reviewer for the crash report, looked for access to the OS update, looked for someone with the OS update who could test your app, waited until the OS update was released, or simply submitted your app update again in hopes of getting a more lenient or helpful reviewer. Why didn't you do those things? I've been in similar situations many times and made poor decisions. In my case, I made those poor choices because of poor mental habits and low emotional awareness. About 5 years ago, I started spending effort to increase my EQ and mental habits. I consulted a therapist regularly for several years, read Marshall Rosenberg's Non-violent Communication, learned meditation at a free 10-day silent retreat, and talked with people close to me about my emotions and mental habits. I occasionally ask people close to me for feedback on my attitude and behavior. All of this effort as paid off. Compared to 5 years ago, I have more stable relationships, fewer and shorter arguments, fewer days lost to playing unhappy mind-movies, and more work productivity. I urge you to invest more effort in your EQ skills. EDIT: s/same situation/similar situations/

mleonhard 6y ago
If you think my comment doesn't contribute to the discussion, please tell me why.
- saagarjha 6y ago
  Probably because the app was tested on a prerelease version of macOS and you're digging into the developer for having poor EQ.
  - mleonhard 6y ago
    The developer got frustrated and gave up. I did that a lot. After I worked on improving my EQ, I get frustrated/angry and give up less often. Therefore I think getting frustrated/angry and giving up is a sign of poor EQ. This is based on my personal experience. Important life decisions (like cancelling a project) are better made based on deep personal values, not as reactions to emotions.

cnst 6y ago

> I recommend that everyone use the “suggestion” box to suggest removing App Review entirely. Probably not worth paying 99 USD/year just to make such a suggestion. Just for those folks who aren't aware that you actually have to pay Apple every year for the "privilege" of having your app submissions rejected for such random reasons -- even if your app is entirely free and non-commercial.