6 ms·

Also, sometimes, translations have a different (perceived) meaning. A pet peeve of mine is "by default". In Italian it is translated (correctly) "per difetto"

by jaclaz 6y ago

Also, sometimes, translations have a different (perceived) meaning. A pet peeve of mine is "by default". In Italian it is translated (correctly) "per difetto", and it is "fine" when other people already know the term, but otherways "difetto" is also the translation of "defect", and you will have a tough time explaining to a layman that it is not a "defect" in that other sense. Another "queer" word (I found it in the Italian version of some database tools) is "ometti" (which is the correct translation of "omit") but that actually I normally read as "little men". In Excel there is "MODE" (statistical function) that is translated into "MODA" which I read as "fashion" and "MOD" (modulo operation) which is translated into "RESTO" (which has a more common meaning of "change" in the sense of what a cashier gives you back when you pay besides that of "remainder").

StavrosK 6y ago
> translations have a different (perceived) meaning I think the problem you're running into is that you just aren't used to these words. I imagine people having the exact same complaints about a computer "mouse" actually reminding them of the animal or "paste" reminding them of glue, but once you get used to them they just become the terms for things.
- MPSimmons 6y ago
  A very long time ago, I worked technical support for Bellsouth Internet, and occasionally we would get people from the bayou in Louisiana calling in, and the language difference was striking. There was one memorable time when this happened, and as I was walking the user through their Dial-Up Network Settings configuration, I asked him to right-click on his dial up connection icon, and he had trouble understanding me. I said something to the effect of, "does your mouse have two buttons?", and he replied, "yes, and I'm mashing this critter right here". So the parallels of the peripheral and the rodent are not lost on everyone.
- numpad0 6y ago
  Or maybe the problem is that translations are wrong, but appear correct if seen by English speaking person through reverse translations, because literal English-Italian translation mapping for said expressions happen to be robust and consistent within itself, despite being inconsistent with actual Italian language in actual real world context.
  - StavrosK 6y ago
    If the term doesn't exist in Italian and you're translating it for the first time, it can't be wrong (by definition). I had never seen the Greek translation of "by default" in Greek, but now it's just one more computer term.
    - casualrandomcom 6y ago
      No I disagree, it can be wrong: You cannot translate "by default" with "quando si mangiano le mele" (trans.: "when eating apples"). That is wrong. And you can do even worse: translate "by default" with "in caso di successo" (trans.: "in case of success") Or also very bad: translate "by default" with "alla scrittura su disco" (trans.: "when writing on disk") At least the new term must not mean anything else than what it should.
  - toyg 6y ago
    > maybe the problem is that translations are wrong La moda in statistica è il corretto termine classico.
seek3r 6y ago
A fun one is: “throwing an error”, which can be translated in “lanciare (launch) un errore” or “tornare (return) un errore” or “causare (cause) un errore”.
- WrtCdEvrydy 6y ago
  tornare is probably more likely unless you caused the error on purpose.
  - casualrandomcom 6y ago
    I would not use that: a common programming idiom is that of "returning an error code", and "ritornare un errore" may be confused with this. As in "return error;" where "error" is some error code, against "throw error;" where "error" is whatever exception class.
- leleItaly 6y ago
  "return" in this context is "restituire", so "restituire (return) un errore" .
- casualrandomcom 6y ago
  I don't understand what's you problem with "lanciare". In C++ you have the couple "throw" and "catch", like "you throw the ball and I catch it". In Italian that is perfectly translated with "tu lanci la palla e io la prendo". What's the problem with that?
fabbari 6y ago
As a native speaker I would never read - in context - "ometti" as little men. IE: "Se ometti un parametro...". Every language is context sensitive. Same for "moda", when I read: "moda, mediana e media..." I would never - ever - think that "moda" is, in the context, "fashion". "resto" - as used in: "Here is your change" - "Ecco il tuo resto" - would never be read as such in context. IE: the nursery song [1] "Quarantaquattro gatti, in fila per sei col *resto* di due" is an example of unambiguous use in the context of maths. So: in context all these words make sense, as it's the case with many words in many languages. [1] https://youtu.be/2jDOj0Xhcc8
- jaclaz 6y ago
  Sure they do make sense in context.
- bzizzjz 6y ago
  I always remember “mode” as coming from “moda”, i.e. popular. The mode is the peak of the distribution, the most “fashionable” number. Maybe it’s fake etymology, but it works
  - dmurray 6y ago
    I was sure this was the etymology, but apparently "mode" in statistics is quite a modern use, from a work by Pearson in 1895 in English. Whether he was influenced by the Romance languages is not clear, but there certainly isn't a direct path from Latin or French as one might have expected. https://hsm.stackexchange.com/questions/7675/what-is-the-etymology-of-the-term-mode-in-statistics https://hsm.stackexchange.com/questions/7675/what-is-the-ety...
gattilorenz 6y ago
On the other hand, "moda" is the correct translation, and the function "resto" gives you... "il resto della divisione" (the remainder). It's probably just a matter of being used to it, because nobody would complain that mean(array) is about the moral qualities of the array (seeing mean as an adj.)
izietto 6y ago
> "by default" ... In Italian it is translated (correctly) "per difetto" No way: the correct translation of "by default" is "valore predefinito", anyone who translates it "per difetto" has serious issues with Italian language.
- dullgiulio 6y ago
  Correct, "per difetto" means flooring a number.
casualrandomcom 6y ago
I am appalled. " "by default". In Italian it is translated (correctly) "per difetto" " Correctly? Not at all! Please don't take as given Google Translate's translations.
- jaclaz 6y ago
  Is the dictionary of Repubblica (one of the main Italian Newspapers) authoritative enough? https://dizionari.repubblica.it/Inglese-Italiano/D/default.html https://dizionari.repubblica.it/Inglese-Italiano/D/default.h... Nowadays it is not used much, but it has been for years in texts related to IT, a reference: http://vietatoridere.blogspot.com/2012/06/default-significati-diversi-riunione.html http://vietatoridere.blogspot.com/2012/06/default-significat... BTW "per difetto" is also used in legal matters to mean "in mancanza"
  - casualrandomcom 6y ago
    No, that dictionary has lost all its authority with this, and no, I would not take texts related to IT as reference: those give the worst examples of bad translations. Take a look at this http://www.treccani.it/vocabolario/difetto/ http://www.treccani.it/vocabolario/difetto/ The only use of "per difetto" that existed before a translation of "by default" was ever needed is in the expression "approssimazione per difetto", and the new meaning forcefully attached to "per difetto" makes sense only in the worst nightmares after a "peperonata co' e cozze". Picchi probably is only witness of a niche neologism, that was probably bred from a bad technical translation. But it was a bad neologism in the first place, it was incorrect right from the start. EDIT Nevertheless I take your point: you did your research before you wrote "correctly".
    - hombre_fatal 6y ago
      On the other hand, the RAE has adopted that same expression from the same latin root into the Spanish language in the IT/computing category: https://dle.rae.es/defecto https://dle.rae.es/defecto It's not something ridiculous out of left field.
    - 6y ago
hombre_fatal 6y ago
You're just not used to it. Now look at programming in English and it has the same "issues". "bug" means defect when it could also mean a little critter. "super" means the parent class? How do people know you don't mean the superlative? How does "short", "float", "long" describe numbers? You "catch" things? "map" and "dictionary" certainly aren't the things I have on my coffee table by the same name. I've heard of race being a "protected class", but not a "BeanFactory" being one. It was always arbitrary from the start. You're making the same mistake that beginners make when they think "ugh, English is so much more precise than this language I'm unfamiliar with!" when they are completely blind to the ambiguities of English that we take for granted.
marcosdumay 6y ago
"Moda" and "resto" are the standard names of those functions in mathematics. All the Latin languages have a similar name from them.
earthboundkid 6y ago
Even within English, a lot of the terms we use are kind of unnatural. I had an American professor once who complained about the use of the term "default" in computing. "Default" is what the bank does when it runs out of money. What does that have to do with me choosing something in the computer? Similarly, a "file" is a bundle of papers, not an individual document. A "program" lists things that will happen in a performance, but it's not an instruction sheet. An "application" is a form that you fill in for a bureaucrat. Etc.
- hashkb 6y ago
  Default makes sense to me... according to your own definition. It's the choice when you're out of choices. You fail to fulfill your obligation to specify behavior, so, default behavior.
  - twic 6y ago
    "Default" means someone being unable to do the thing they're supposed to do. If your opponents don't turn up to a darts match, they have defaulted, and so you win "by default". You can just about support the computer sense by thinking that a default choice is used when a user has failed in their duty to make an explicit choice, etc. But it is a bit of a stretch. Of course, by now, the computer sense has fed back into broader usage, so it just seems like a perfectly ordinary use of the word.
xanathar 6y ago
I will never read "ometti" in the same (sane) way again.

by jaclaz 6y ago

StavrosK 6y ago

> translations have a different (perceived) meaning I think the problem you're running into is that you just aren't used to these words. I imagine people having the exact same complaints about a computer "mouse" actually reminding them of the animal or "paste" reminding them of glue, but once you get used to them they just become the terms for things.

MPSimmons 6y ago
A very long time ago, I worked technical support for Bellsouth Internet, and occasionally we would get people from the bayou in Louisiana calling in, and the language difference was striking. There was one memorable time when this happened, and as I was walking the user through their Dial-Up Network Settings configuration, I asked him to right-click on his dial up connection icon, and he had trouble understanding me. I said something to the effect of, "does your mouse have two buttons?", and he replied, "yes, and I'm mashing this critter right here". So the parallels of the peripheral and the rodent are not lost on everyone.
numpad0 6y ago
Or maybe the problem is that translations are wrong, but appear correct if seen by English speaking person through reverse translations, because literal English-Italian translation mapping for said expressions happen to be robust and consistent within itself, despite being inconsistent with actual Italian language in actual real world context.
- StavrosK 6y ago
  If the term doesn't exist in Italian and you're translating it for the first time, it can't be wrong (by definition). I had never seen the Greek translation of "by default" in Greek, but now it's just one more computer term.
  - casualrandomcom 6y ago
    No I disagree, it can be wrong: You cannot translate "by default" with "quando si mangiano le mele" (trans.: "when eating apples"). That is wrong. And you can do even worse: translate "by default" with "in caso di successo" (trans.: "in case of success") Or also very bad: translate "by default" with "alla scrittura su disco" (trans.: "when writing on disk") At least the new term must not mean anything else than what it should.
- toyg 6y ago
  > maybe the problem is that translations are wrong La moda in statistica è il corretto termine classico.

seek3r 6y ago

A fun one is: “throwing an error”, which can be translated in “lanciare (launch) un errore” or “tornare (return) un errore” or “causare (cause) un errore”.

WrtCdEvrydy 6y ago
tornare is probably more likely unless you caused the error on purpose.
- casualrandomcom 6y ago
  I would not use that: a common programming idiom is that of "returning an error code", and "ritornare un errore" may be confused with this. As in "return error;" where "error" is some error code, against "throw error;" where "error" is whatever exception class.
leleItaly 6y ago
"return" in this context is "restituire", so "restituire (return) un errore" .
casualrandomcom 6y ago
I don't understand what's you problem with "lanciare". In C++ you have the couple "throw" and "catch", like "you throw the ball and I catch it". In Italian that is perfectly translated with "tu lanci la palla e io la prendo". What's the problem with that?

fabbari 6y ago

As a native speaker I would never read - in context - "ometti" as little men. IE: "Se ometti un parametro...". Every language is context sensitive. Same for "moda", when I read: "moda, mediana e media..." I would never - ever - think that "moda" is, in the context, "fashion". "resto" - as used in: "Here is your change" - "Ecco il tuo resto" - would never be read as such in context. IE: the nursery song [1] "Quarantaquattro gatti, in fila per sei col *resto* di due" is an example of unambiguous use in the context of maths. So: in context all these words make sense, as it's the case with many words in many languages. [1] https://youtu.be/2jDOj0Xhcc8

jaclaz 6y ago
Sure they do make sense in context.
bzizzjz 6y ago
I always remember “mode” as coming from “moda”, i.e. popular. The mode is the peak of the distribution, the most “fashionable” number. Maybe it’s fake etymology, but it works
- dmurray 6y ago
  I was sure this was the etymology, but apparently "mode" in statistics is quite a modern use, from a work by Pearson in 1895 in English. Whether he was influenced by the Romance languages is not clear, but there certainly isn't a direct path from Latin or French as one might have expected. https://hsm.stackexchange.com/questions/7675/what-is-the-etymology-of-the-term-mode-in-statistics https://hsm.stackexchange.com/questions/7675/what-is-the-ety...

gattilorenz 6y ago

On the other hand, "moda" is the correct translation, and the function "resto" gives you... "il resto della divisione" (the remainder). It's probably just a matter of being used to it, because nobody would complain that mean(array) is about the moral qualities of the array (seeing mean as an adj.)

izietto 6y ago

> "by default" ... In Italian it is translated (correctly) "per difetto" No way: the correct translation of "by default" is "valore predefinito", anyone who translates it "per difetto" has serious issues with Italian language.

dullgiulio 6y ago
Correct, "per difetto" means flooring a number.

casualrandomcom 6y ago

I am appalled. " "by default". In Italian it is translated (correctly) "per difetto" " Correctly? Not at all! Please don't take as given Google Translate's translations.

jaclaz 6y ago
Is the dictionary of Repubblica (one of the main Italian Newspapers) authoritative enough? https://dizionari.repubblica.it/Inglese-Italiano/D/default.html https://dizionari.repubblica.it/Inglese-Italiano/D/default.h... Nowadays it is not used much, but it has been for years in texts related to IT, a reference: http://vietatoridere.blogspot.com/2012/06/default-significati-diversi-riunione.html http://vietatoridere.blogspot.com/2012/06/default-significat... BTW "per difetto" is also used in legal matters to mean "in mancanza"
- casualrandomcom 6y ago
  No, that dictionary has lost all its authority with this, and no, I would not take texts related to IT as reference: those give the worst examples of bad translations. Take a look at this http://www.treccani.it/vocabolario/difetto/ http://www.treccani.it/vocabolario/difetto/ The only use of "per difetto" that existed before a translation of "by default" was ever needed is in the expression "approssimazione per difetto", and the new meaning forcefully attached to "per difetto" makes sense only in the worst nightmares after a "peperonata co' e cozze". Picchi probably is only witness of a niche neologism, that was probably bred from a bad technical translation. But it was a bad neologism in the first place, it was incorrect right from the start. EDIT Nevertheless I take your point: you did your research before you wrote "correctly".
  - hombre_fatal 6y ago
    On the other hand, the RAE has adopted that same expression from the same latin root into the Spanish language in the IT/computing category: https://dle.rae.es/defecto https://dle.rae.es/defecto It's not something ridiculous out of left field.
  - 6y ago

hombre_fatal 6y ago

You're just not used to it. Now look at programming in English and it has the same "issues". "bug" means defect when it could also mean a little critter. "super" means the parent class? How do people know you don't mean the superlative? How does "short", "float", "long" describe numbers? You "catch" things? "map" and "dictionary" certainly aren't the things I have on my coffee table by the same name. I've heard of race being a "protected class", but not a "BeanFactory" being one. It was always arbitrary from the start. You're making the same mistake that beginners make when they think "ugh, English is so much more precise than this language I'm unfamiliar with!" when they are completely blind to the ambiguities of English that we take for granted.

marcosdumay 6y ago

"Moda" and "resto" are the standard names of those functions in mathematics. All the Latin languages have a similar name from them.

earthboundkid 6y ago

Even within English, a lot of the terms we use are kind of unnatural. I had an American professor once who complained about the use of the term "default" in computing. "Default" is what the bank does when it runs out of money. What does that have to do with me choosing something in the computer? Similarly, a "file" is a bundle of papers, not an individual document. A "program" lists things that will happen in a performance, but it's not an instruction sheet. An "application" is a form that you fill in for a bureaucrat. Etc.

hashkb 6y ago
Default makes sense to me... according to your own definition. It's the choice when you're out of choices. You fail to fulfill your obligation to specify behavior, so, default behavior.
- twic 6y ago
  "Default" means someone being unable to do the thing they're supposed to do. If your opponents don't turn up to a darts match, they have defaulted, and so you win "by default". You can just about support the computer sense by thinking that a default choice is used when a user has failed in their duty to make an explicit choice, etc. But it is a bit of a stretch. Of course, by now, the computer sense has fed back into broader usage, so it just seems like a perfectly ordinary use of the word.

xanathar 6y ago

I will never read "ometti" in the same (sane) way again.