12 ms·

This is really interesting - I wonder if, in our post-COVID world, we'll see other countries doing the same. I'm trying to see any disadvantages for countries

This is really interesting - I wonder if, in our post-COVID world, we'll see other countries doing the same. I'm trying to see any disadvantages for countries that do this, but the only thing I came up with is the possibility of distorting local rental prices. But presumably if enough countries offered such a visa, applicants would be spread over those countries, causing less distortion.

cblconfederate 6y ago
this will become a trend among touristy countries, because the slump in tourism will last for many years (and imho will permanently alter the market)
throwaway894345 6y ago
I would love to work remotely from Europe. I would think it would be in the interest of European countries to make this kind of arrangement because I would be spending my cushy US salary on European goods and services and not taking a job away from a European.
- FpUser 6y ago
  And raising local prices. I saw this happen over the years in some areas of Canada when they became more popular destinations for the US tourists. The result is not good for the majority of local folks.
  - throwaway894345 6y ago
    Maybe, but the cost of living in Europe is already considerably higher than in the US (barring of course the popular but disingenuous comparisons between SF/NYC and rural Europe). I'm not an economist, but I wouldn't expect an influx of Americans to drive up the cost of anything except perhaps real estate. Moreover, I wouldn't expect a significant influx of Americans period--relocating to Europe would only be for the intersection of the very privileged, those interested in Europe, and those who have the flexibility to make the move. I'm sure there's some threshold at which too many people are visiting and it's causing problems; however, I'm only arguing that the current state is suboptimal for everyone (although someone else has pointed out that it may be easier to work remotely in Europe than I'm aware of).
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
    - seanmcdirmid 6y ago
      > Maybe, but the cost of living in Europe is already considerably higher than in the US (barring of course the popular but disingenuous comparisons between SF/NYC and rural Europe). Living costs in Europe are incredibly uneven, like they are in the states. Denmark is much more expensive than next door Netherlands, for example, which is actually quite reasonable (and perhaps Americans might even find it cheap outside of Amsterdam).
      - throwaway894345 6y ago
        It does vary a lot, but it’s still more expensive on average than the US. https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/country_result.jsp?country=Netherlands&displayCurrency=USD https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/country_result.jsp?cou... Note that they say cost of living excluding rent is 8% higher but that rents are lower—I don’t think their rent analysis is by area but rather by number of bedrooms. Typically rent per sq foot/meter/etc is much cheaper in the US than in European countries, and I would wager that it’s the same with Netherlands specifically.
- brm 6y ago
  This shouldn't just be for the remotely employed. We need to do more decouple freedom of movement from employment by a company. Perhaps there should be something like this: An International Creative or Digital Visa that countries can sign onto. This proposal is a good start for what it should be: http://artsvisa.org/ireland/ http://artsvisa.org/ireland/ Have something to contribute. Be able to support yourself. Don't compete for an in country job and any country should welcome your residence/citizenship. There's no reason something like this doesn't exist in a global digital age.
  - throwaway894345 6y ago
    > Have something to contribute. Be able to support yourself. Don't compete for an in country job and any country should welcome your residence/citizenship. I think agree with this, but I'm not sure what this looks like apart from "remote employment". How do you not compete for an in-country job without being employed remotely? Even if you're a self-employed plumber, for example, you're still competing for a job in your host country (your presence increases the supply of plumbing services without the corresponding increase in demand).
    - kranner 6y ago
      Being wealthy or just having enough in savings to not have to work for a while seems the obvious alternative.
    - brm 6y ago
      If you design and sell tshirts globally on the internet or freelance copy edit for clients in and out of country or exhibit and sell your art internationally these are all sorts of things that are not in competition with local employment but currently have limited movement and residency options. They're not pure examples but I think they work for what people are typically concerned with when it comes to immigration and residency.
      - throwaway894345 6y ago
        Fair enough, I was categorizing that as “working remotely”, but I see your point. I’d be curious to hear from the people who downvoted me though.
- erikw 6y ago
  Many countries have a minimum salary limit which qualifies you (and potentially your family) to live there. For example, last I looked into it several years ago, Spain's minimum salary for a remote working visa was USD $36,000.
  - zachthewf 6y ago
    That's really cool. Do you have to pay income taxes in Spain if you do that?
    - Nursie 6y ago
      Yes, I would think so. The US is the only country I know of that demands income taxes from its citizens when they are non-resident. Citizens of most countries would expect to pay local income taxes only when they emigrate.
      - cromka 6y ago
        Although it is important to remember that any tax one would have to pay to US IRS is for the difference between what a foreign country and US would charge, if former charged less. This only applies to countries with which US signed a treaty for the avoidance of double taxation.
        Nursie 6y ago
        Interesting - from this and a couple of other comments I can see my idea that you just had to pay US income tax regardless was over-simplified and wrong. It's still a little weird to me though, as someone who would expect my own country to relinquish all tax demands if I'm not actually there!
        kavrick 6y ago
        I'll note Canada has a similar treaty with the US and this applied to me while working / living there for a number of years. They wanted to tax me on my "worldwide" income and requested that I pay the difference between what I was making in the US vs. what I would be paying in Canada had I been living there. It wasn't something I had considered in my planning so good to look into before you go!
- nextos 6y ago
  There are some rumors that indicate the Canary Islands will set up some remote worker deal. It'd be great as they have low tax, great weather and nice infrastructure including really nice Internet.
  - brianbreslin 6y ago
    Are their taxes not the same as rest of Spain?
    - callahad 6y ago
      Nope. They're outside of the EU VAT territory, so those rates differ, at least.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
  - dzhiurgis 6y ago
    I’ve recently started looking into moving to Azores. Seems not as hot as Canary Islands and more green, almost like New Zealand. It’s location is almost perfect for Americans and real estate seems cheap too. Even with cushy developer salary NZ real estate cost is way too burdensome.
- skizm 6y ago
  Sounds like a net lose for countries that offer extensive social programs and healthcare depending on how the income tax works.
- seanalltogether 6y ago
  I had the same idea 10 years ago and I'm still here after marrying one of the natives. But be warned, working remotely in Europe can be difficult. I'm 7 hours ahead of my coworkers in America, so my workday is roughly 1pm to 9pm, with continual slack messages coming in until midnight at times.
  - throwaway894345 6y ago
    Yeah, I’ve considered that as well and it seems to be the biggest downside as well. In my case, my wife and I would be on the same schedule so there wouldn’t be so much impedance there, but it would make weeknight get-together a with friends more difficult. However there should still be weekends and vacation time and so on. I’m at least confident that my employer would be flexible about me shifting my working hours to something closer to noon-8PM and respecting that schedule.
  - dzhiurgis 6y ago
    Seems your company isn’t really distributed if it requires synchronised availability.
- dominotw 6y ago
  > cushy US salary Wouldn't this be tax fraud to claim an address in US as your paycheck address and not actually live there?
  - taylortrusty 6y ago
    How is that tax fraud? You pay federal taxes anywhere in the world you live as an American citizen.
    - dominotw 6y ago
      ok i work 100% remote, can I claim my sisters address in Texas in texas for my payroll and actaully live in new york? I am genuinely curious. This will save me tens and thousands of dollars every year if this isn't fraud. why the downvotes, i don't get it.
      - throwaway894345 6y ago
        Lying about your address is tax fraud, but no one is talking about that...
      - jsjohnst 6y ago
        > ok i work 100% remote, can I claim my sisters address in Texas in texas for my payroll and actaully live in new york? That’s an entirely different issue. Yes, New York state will likely take issue with the scenario you describe, but not at the federal level (what this thread is about). Further nobody, but you, was indicating lying about their address.
        dominotw 6y ago
        > That’s an entirely different issue. how is it different? OP is claiming an address in USA for payroll as his residence but it isn't actually his residence. How is this not fraud.
        6y ago
- Cognitron 6y ago
  I worked remotely from Europe for about two months last year, and spent a few weeks in Spain. I just got a travel visa. It didn't even occur to me that it would be an issue. I think they're more worried about you overstaying your visa than working on your laptop. Just make sure you have a return ticket, or a train ticket out of every country you visit. I got grilled by the immigration guy in Ireland because I bought a flight to Dublin last minute and didn't have a flight back out. I'm not suggesting anyone knowingly break the law, just sharing my experience. Nobody gives a shit what you're doing on your laptop at Starbucks.
  - throwaway894345 6y ago
    My concern was regarding staying for longer than permitted by a travel visa, nor that people would object to me working in a Starbucks.
    - Cognitron 6y ago
      Ah, yeah that's a different story if you want to stay long term.
dmurray 6y ago
The disadvantage is that you may become a burden on the host country - you cost more in public services than you bring in revenue. This could happen if the host country supplies plentiful public services funded mainly by income taxes rather than consumption taxes. Or simply if you lost your job and turned to begging or crime, and the host country finds it expensive or politically difficult to deport you. These are pretty niche cases and most countries are happy to take wealthy, self-sufficient immigrants. But there are valid reasons why you might not want too open an immigration policy.
- oh_sigh 6y ago
  I'm sure there is a means test + some proof of your job to get the stamp, which probably dramatically limits the the odds that someone is going to become destitute and turn to a life of crime in some foreign land.
- dominotw 6y ago
  > funded mainly by income taxes rather than consumption taxes. Why would you not pay income taxes in barbados though?
  - buran77 6y ago
    Many countries have laws so that if you are a resident there you also pay taxes there. They may also have agreements with other countries in order to avoid double taxation. But I'm fairly certain that barring any weird legal setup living in a country for a year means you pay the income taxes (at least) in that particular country.
    - nogabebop23 6y ago
      I don't think you would pay tax in this scenario, as essentially this is just a longer-term tourist visa. You won't be allowed to get a job locally and are expected to work remote. There's no way they could track (and tax) this; it's really no different than doing some work on your 2-week Mexico vacation. Also Americans pay tax based on citizenship too.
hoseja 6y ago
Croatia is implementing something like this. https://www.schengenvisainfo.com/news/pm-plenkovic-croatia-will-soon-introduce-digital-nomad-visas/ https://www.schengenvisainfo.com/news/pm-plenkovic-croatia-w...
bernawil 6y ago
I'm trying to see any disadvantages for countries that do this One unintended consequence could be that while a country might get some foreign citizen remote workers, it would decrease the remote working opportunities of their own citizens. E.g Spain might think "we'll get Americans to move here and do their U.S jobs" but what they actually get is, for example, Moroccans getting U.S jobs from Spain and more less chances of Spanish citizens getting U.S jobs.

cblconfederate 6y ago

this will become a trend among touristy countries, because the slump in tourism will last for many years (and imho will permanently alter the market)

throwaway894345 6y ago

I would love to work remotely from Europe. I would think it would be in the interest of European countries to make this kind of arrangement because I would be spending my cushy US salary on European goods and services and not taking a job away from a European.

FpUser 6y ago
And raising local prices. I saw this happen over the years in some areas of Canada when they became more popular destinations for the US tourists. The result is not good for the majority of local folks.
- throwaway894345 6y ago
  Maybe, but the cost of living in Europe is already considerably higher than in the US (barring of course the popular but disingenuous comparisons between SF/NYC and rural Europe). I'm not an economist, but I wouldn't expect an influx of Americans to drive up the cost of anything except perhaps real estate. Moreover, I wouldn't expect a significant influx of Americans period--relocating to Europe would only be for the intersection of the very privileged, those interested in Europe, and those who have the flexibility to make the move. I'm sure there's some threshold at which too many people are visiting and it's causing problems; however, I'm only arguing that the current state is suboptimal for everyone (although someone else has pointed out that it may be easier to work remotely in Europe than I'm aware of).
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - seanmcdirmid 6y ago
    > Maybe, but the cost of living in Europe is already considerably higher than in the US (barring of course the popular but disingenuous comparisons between SF/NYC and rural Europe). Living costs in Europe are incredibly uneven, like they are in the states. Denmark is much more expensive than next door Netherlands, for example, which is actually quite reasonable (and perhaps Americans might even find it cheap outside of Amsterdam).
    - throwaway894345 6y ago
      It does vary a lot, but it’s still more expensive on average than the US. https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/country_result.jsp?country=Netherlands&displayCurrency=USD https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/country_result.jsp?cou... Note that they say cost of living excluding rent is 8% higher but that rents are lower—I don’t think their rent analysis is by area but rather by number of bedrooms. Typically rent per sq foot/meter/etc is much cheaper in the US than in European countries, and I would wager that it’s the same with Netherlands specifically.
brm 6y ago
This shouldn't just be for the remotely employed. We need to do more decouple freedom of movement from employment by a company. Perhaps there should be something like this: An International Creative or Digital Visa that countries can sign onto. This proposal is a good start for what it should be: http://artsvisa.org/ireland/ http://artsvisa.org/ireland/ Have something to contribute. Be able to support yourself. Don't compete for an in country job and any country should welcome your residence/citizenship. There's no reason something like this doesn't exist in a global digital age.
- throwaway894345 6y ago
  > Have something to contribute. Be able to support yourself. Don't compete for an in country job and any country should welcome your residence/citizenship. I think agree with this, but I'm not sure what this looks like apart from "remote employment". How do you not compete for an in-country job without being employed remotely? Even if you're a self-employed plumber, for example, you're still competing for a job in your host country (your presence increases the supply of plumbing services without the corresponding increase in demand).
  - kranner 6y ago
    Being wealthy or just having enough in savings to not have to work for a while seems the obvious alternative.
  - brm 6y ago
    If you design and sell tshirts globally on the internet or freelance copy edit for clients in and out of country or exhibit and sell your art internationally these are all sorts of things that are not in competition with local employment but currently have limited movement and residency options. They're not pure examples but I think they work for what people are typically concerned with when it comes to immigration and residency.
    - throwaway894345 6y ago
      Fair enough, I was categorizing that as “working remotely”, but I see your point. I’d be curious to hear from the people who downvoted me though.
erikw 6y ago
Many countries have a minimum salary limit which qualifies you (and potentially your family) to live there. For example, last I looked into it several years ago, Spain's minimum salary for a remote working visa was USD $36,000.
- zachthewf 6y ago
  That's really cool. Do you have to pay income taxes in Spain if you do that?
  - Nursie 6y ago
    Yes, I would think so. The US is the only country I know of that demands income taxes from its citizens when they are non-resident. Citizens of most countries would expect to pay local income taxes only when they emigrate.
    - cromka 6y ago
      Although it is important to remember that any tax one would have to pay to US IRS is for the difference between what a foreign country and US would charge, if former charged less. This only applies to countries with which US signed a treaty for the avoidance of double taxation.
      - Nursie 6y ago
        Interesting - from this and a couple of other comments I can see my idea that you just had to pay US income tax regardless was over-simplified and wrong. It's still a little weird to me though, as someone who would expect my own country to relinquish all tax demands if I'm not actually there!
      - kavrick 6y ago
        I'll note Canada has a similar treaty with the US and this applied to me while working / living there for a number of years. They wanted to tax me on my "worldwide" income and requested that I pay the difference between what I was making in the US vs. what I would be paying in Canada had I been living there. It wasn't something I had considered in my planning so good to look into before you go!
nextos 6y ago
There are some rumors that indicate the Canary Islands will set up some remote worker deal. It'd be great as they have low tax, great weather and nice infrastructure including really nice Internet.
- brianbreslin 6y ago
  Are their taxes not the same as rest of Spain?
  - callahad 6y ago
    Nope. They're outside of the EU VAT territory, so those rates differ, at least.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
- dzhiurgis 6y ago
  I’ve recently started looking into moving to Azores. Seems not as hot as Canary Islands and more green, almost like New Zealand. It’s location is almost perfect for Americans and real estate seems cheap too. Even with cushy developer salary NZ real estate cost is way too burdensome.
skizm 6y ago
Sounds like a net lose for countries that offer extensive social programs and healthcare depending on how the income tax works.
seanalltogether 6y ago
I had the same idea 10 years ago and I'm still here after marrying one of the natives. But be warned, working remotely in Europe can be difficult. I'm 7 hours ahead of my coworkers in America, so my workday is roughly 1pm to 9pm, with continual slack messages coming in until midnight at times.
- throwaway894345 6y ago
  Yeah, I’ve considered that as well and it seems to be the biggest downside as well. In my case, my wife and I would be on the same schedule so there wouldn’t be so much impedance there, but it would make weeknight get-together a with friends more difficult. However there should still be weekends and vacation time and so on. I’m at least confident that my employer would be flexible about me shifting my working hours to something closer to noon-8PM and respecting that schedule.
- dzhiurgis 6y ago
  Seems your company isn’t really distributed if it requires synchronised availability.
dominotw 6y ago
> cushy US salary Wouldn't this be tax fraud to claim an address in US as your paycheck address and not actually live there?
- taylortrusty 6y ago
  How is that tax fraud? You pay federal taxes anywhere in the world you live as an American citizen.
  - dominotw 6y ago
    ok i work 100% remote, can I claim my sisters address in Texas in texas for my payroll and actaully live in new york? I am genuinely curious. This will save me tens and thousands of dollars every year if this isn't fraud. why the downvotes, i don't get it.
    - throwaway894345 6y ago
      Lying about your address is tax fraud, but no one is talking about that...
    - jsjohnst 6y ago
      > ok i work 100% remote, can I claim my sisters address in Texas in texas for my payroll and actaully live in new york? That’s an entirely different issue. Yes, New York state will likely take issue with the scenario you describe, but not at the federal level (what this thread is about). Further nobody, but you, was indicating lying about their address.
      - dominotw 6y ago
        > That’s an entirely different issue. how is it different? OP is claiming an address in USA for payroll as his residence but it isn't actually his residence. How is this not fraud.
        6y ago
Cognitron 6y ago
I worked remotely from Europe for about two months last year, and spent a few weeks in Spain. I just got a travel visa. It didn't even occur to me that it would be an issue. I think they're more worried about you overstaying your visa than working on your laptop. Just make sure you have a return ticket, or a train ticket out of every country you visit. I got grilled by the immigration guy in Ireland because I bought a flight to Dublin last minute and didn't have a flight back out. I'm not suggesting anyone knowingly break the law, just sharing my experience. Nobody gives a shit what you're doing on your laptop at Starbucks.
- throwaway894345 6y ago
  My concern was regarding staying for longer than permitted by a travel visa, nor that people would object to me working in a Starbucks.
  - Cognitron 6y ago
    Ah, yeah that's a different story if you want to stay long term.

dmurray 6y ago

The disadvantage is that you may become a burden on the host country - you cost more in public services than you bring in revenue. This could happen if the host country supplies plentiful public services funded mainly by income taxes rather than consumption taxes. Or simply if you lost your job and turned to begging or crime, and the host country finds it expensive or politically difficult to deport you. These are pretty niche cases and most countries are happy to take wealthy, self-sufficient immigrants. But there are valid reasons why you might not want too open an immigration policy.

oh_sigh 6y ago
I'm sure there is a means test + some proof of your job to get the stamp, which probably dramatically limits the the odds that someone is going to become destitute and turn to a life of crime in some foreign land.
dominotw 6y ago
> funded mainly by income taxes rather than consumption taxes. Why would you not pay income taxes in barbados though?
- buran77 6y ago
  Many countries have laws so that if you are a resident there you also pay taxes there. They may also have agreements with other countries in order to avoid double taxation. But I'm fairly certain that barring any weird legal setup living in a country for a year means you pay the income taxes (at least) in that particular country.
  - nogabebop23 6y ago
    I don't think you would pay tax in this scenario, as essentially this is just a longer-term tourist visa. You won't be allowed to get a job locally and are expected to work remote. There's no way they could track (and tax) this; it's really no different than doing some work on your 2-week Mexico vacation. Also Americans pay tax based on citizenship too.

hoseja 6y ago

Croatia is implementing something like this. https://www.schengenvisainfo.com/news/pm-plenkovic-croatia-will-soon-introduce-digital-nomad-visas/ https://www.schengenvisainfo.com/news/pm-plenkovic-croatia-w...

bernawil 6y ago

I'm trying to see any disadvantages for countries that do this One unintended consequence could be that while a country might get some foreign citizen remote workers, it would decrease the remote working opportunities of their own citizens. E.g Spain might think "we'll get Americans to move here and do their U.S jobs" but what they actually get is, for example, Moroccans getting U.S jobs from Spain and more less chances of Spanish citizens getting U.S jobs.