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I've switched from Jupyter to Pluto recently. Here's a few experiences with it. * The fact that I can actually use the source files later because they're just

I've switched from Jupyter to Pluto recently. Here's a few experiences with it. * The fact that I can actually use the source files later because they're just Julia files is incredibly useful. I often copy-paste from them into actual REPL-code, and sometimes I just polish the notebook until its source becomes usable as a command-line tool. * I like the reactive notebook concept. It does really help with bugs * Pluto is still rough around the edges. Too few keyboard shortcuts. Buttons and text are tiny, afloat in an ocean of useless whitespace. pushing to LOAD_PATH doesn't work properly. Pluto is a very young project and just now gaining attention in the Julia community, so I'm confident these usability issues will improve.

g0wda 6y ago
> I like the reactive notebook concept. It does really help with bugs Can you say more? An example, maybe?
- jakobnissen 6y ago
  The idea is to keep the amount of global state as low as possible. Pluto.jl creates a dependency graph between cells: If cell A defines foo, and cell B uses foo, then cell B depends on cell A. Whenever cell A is updated, cell B will automatically be re-evaluated. (edit: I suppose it's not really global state I'm talking about as much as hidden state left over from overwritten or deleted cells) For example, I typically create tonnes of code cells when I visualize and try to get a sense of some data. The large majority of cells (probably >80%) are then deleted, and whenever I find a trivial bug in some code, I fix the cell where the bug occured. But now - which cells had I rerun after fixing the bug? And did any of the run cells depend on some variable in a deleted cell? If so, the notebook will no longer be reproducible when I re-run it? It's impossible to keep track of. So when I use Jupyter, I frequently press the "restart kernel and run all" option. But of course, that is slow. So I need to serialize a lot of data, which is troublesome. Pluto completely circumvents that problem.
  - benhurmarcel 6y ago
    What happens if you reassign a variable below? Like: a = 1 println(a) a = 2 Does it show 1 or 2? Edit: tested it, it throws an error "Multiple definitions for a: Combine all definitions into a single reactive cell using a `begin ... end` block." Not sure I like that way of working.
    - 3JPLW 6y ago
      You just update the `a=1` cell, changing it to `a=2`. That's the whole point. Every other cell that depends upon `a` will then automatically update.
      - ziotom78 6y ago
        Exactly. It requires a change in mindset wrt Jupyter, but it is totally worth it!
    - vanderZwan 6y ago
      Think of it as working with immutable data, because that's essentially what it is. Which has all the pros and cons of that approach (in my opinion a lot more pros, but YMMV).
      - benhurmarcel 6y ago
        Yes, that's the best explanation in the end I think. Maybe I'm too used to reuse variables and that's a bad habit I should work on. For example most of my counters are called i.
    - darsnack 6y ago
      In a more complex example where you actually take a variable, do some operations to it, then reassign it, Pluto.jl encourages you to separate that into multiple cells. The reason is each cell marks a distinct node in the dependency graph. If you prefer to use cells, then the notebook can be smarter about what lines actually need to get re-run and what don't. A downside to using multiple cells is vertical spacing/visual noise. This is something that the package authors are currently thinking about addressing.
- 3JPLW 6y ago
  It completely fixes a huge number of the gripes in the JupyterCon talk I don't like notebooks by Joel Grus. The primary complaint there is that notebooks have a disconnect between the state of the program and the display of the cells. By using a completely reactive mode the state is no longer hidden. It's more akin to a spreadsheet than a notebook. A number of other complaints are completely circumvented by using a file format that's simply a pure Julia file with clever comments. Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7jiPeIFXb6U https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7jiPeIFXb6U Slides: https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1n2RlMdmv1p25Xy5thJUhkKGvjtV-dkAIsUXP-AL4ffI/edit#slide=id.g362da58057_0_1 https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1n2RlMdmv1p25Xy5thJUh... Previous discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17856700 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17856700
  - levesque 6y ago
    Now we just need to port all this over to python... or switch to Julia? Which one would take the least amount of effort?
    - ChrisRackauckas 6y ago
      Switching to Julia. You can just use PyCall to call all of your old code, so py"\paste" and you're using Pluto is like a 1 minute process. Then you can get fancy later.
    - ScottPJones 6y ago
      You'll also save a lot of effort in future endeavors, IMO. Remember, once you've switched to Julia, Python is still only a `using PyCall` and `pyimport` away!
cpsempek 6y ago
The inability to simply import jupyter notebooks as python files has always been a point of friction for me, I’m glad to see this is a main feature for Pluto.
- eigenspace 6y ago
  I'm not sure if Python has something like this, but in julia we have https://github.com/stevengj/NBInclude.jl https://github.com/stevengj/NBInclude.jl which allows us to import jupyter notebooks like regular files.
  - kkylin 6y ago
    I did not know about this. Nice. Thanks!
- armanboyaci 6y ago
  What do you think about jupytext? https://github.com/mwouts/jupytext https://github.com/mwouts/jupytext
- blooalien 6y ago
  I frequently use Jupyter Lab notebooks as "pre-programming" sessions before coding an actual app or script in Python. I'll document all the interesting bits in Markdown cells, and test the bits I don't understand entirely in code cells. Then I copy/paste chunks of working code out into my text editor or IDE to begin "real" coding.
- tmabraham 6y ago
  You mean like nbdev?
ScottPJones 6y ago
I've also switched to using Pluto, shortly after seeing the presentation during JuliaCon. It is still rough around the edges, but I've found it a lot easier to deal with than Jupyter, quite frankly.

g0wda 6y ago

> I like the reactive notebook concept. It does really help with bugs Can you say more? An example, maybe?

jakobnissen 6y ago
The idea is to keep the amount of global state as low as possible. Pluto.jl creates a dependency graph between cells: If cell A defines foo, and cell B uses foo, then cell B depends on cell A. Whenever cell A is updated, cell B will automatically be re-evaluated. (edit: I suppose it's not really global state I'm talking about as much as hidden state left over from overwritten or deleted cells) For example, I typically create tonnes of code cells when I visualize and try to get a sense of some data. The large majority of cells (probably >80%) are then deleted, and whenever I find a trivial bug in some code, I fix the cell where the bug occured. But now - which cells had I rerun after fixing the bug? And did any of the run cells depend on some variable in a deleted cell? If so, the notebook will no longer be reproducible when I re-run it? It's impossible to keep track of. So when I use Jupyter, I frequently press the "restart kernel and run all" option. But of course, that is slow. So I need to serialize a lot of data, which is troublesome. Pluto completely circumvents that problem.
- benhurmarcel 6y ago
  What happens if you reassign a variable below? Like: a = 1 println(a) a = 2 Does it show 1 or 2? Edit: tested it, it throws an error "Multiple definitions for a: Combine all definitions into a single reactive cell using a `begin ... end` block." Not sure I like that way of working.
  - 3JPLW 6y ago
    You just update the `a=1` cell, changing it to `a=2`. That's the whole point. Every other cell that depends upon `a` will then automatically update.
    - ziotom78 6y ago
      Exactly. It requires a change in mindset wrt Jupyter, but it is totally worth it!
  - vanderZwan 6y ago
    Think of it as working with immutable data, because that's essentially what it is. Which has all the pros and cons of that approach (in my opinion a lot more pros, but YMMV).
    - benhurmarcel 6y ago
      Yes, that's the best explanation in the end I think. Maybe I'm too used to reuse variables and that's a bad habit I should work on. For example most of my counters are called i.
  - darsnack 6y ago
    In a more complex example where you actually take a variable, do some operations to it, then reassign it, Pluto.jl encourages you to separate that into multiple cells. The reason is each cell marks a distinct node in the dependency graph. If you prefer to use cells, then the notebook can be smarter about what lines actually need to get re-run and what don't. A downside to using multiple cells is vertical spacing/visual noise. This is something that the package authors are currently thinking about addressing.
3JPLW 6y ago
It completely fixes a huge number of the gripes in the JupyterCon talk I don't like notebooks by Joel Grus. The primary complaint there is that notebooks have a disconnect between the state of the program and the display of the cells. By using a completely reactive mode the state is no longer hidden. It's more akin to a spreadsheet than a notebook. A number of other complaints are completely circumvented by using a file format that's simply a pure Julia file with clever comments. Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7jiPeIFXb6U https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7jiPeIFXb6U Slides: https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1n2RlMdmv1p25Xy5thJUhkKGvjtV-dkAIsUXP-AL4ffI/edit#slide=id.g362da58057_0_1 https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1n2RlMdmv1p25Xy5thJUh... Previous discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17856700 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17856700
- levesque 6y ago
  Now we just need to port all this over to python... or switch to Julia? Which one would take the least amount of effort?
  - ChrisRackauckas 6y ago
    Switching to Julia. You can just use PyCall to call all of your old code, so py"\paste" and you're using Pluto is like a 1 minute process. Then you can get fancy later.
  - ScottPJones 6y ago
    You'll also save a lot of effort in future endeavors, IMO. Remember, once you've switched to Julia, Python is still only a `using PyCall` and `pyimport` away!

cpsempek 6y ago

The inability to simply import jupyter notebooks as python files has always been a point of friction for me, I’m glad to see this is a main feature for Pluto.

eigenspace 6y ago
I'm not sure if Python has something like this, but in julia we have https://github.com/stevengj/NBInclude.jl https://github.com/stevengj/NBInclude.jl which allows us to import jupyter notebooks like regular files.
- kkylin 6y ago
  I did not know about this. Nice. Thanks!
armanboyaci 6y ago
What do you think about jupytext? https://github.com/mwouts/jupytext https://github.com/mwouts/jupytext
blooalien 6y ago
I frequently use Jupyter Lab notebooks as "pre-programming" sessions before coding an actual app or script in Python. I'll document all the interesting bits in Markdown cells, and test the bits I don't understand entirely in code cells. Then I copy/paste chunks of working code out into my text editor or IDE to begin "real" coding.
tmabraham 6y ago
You mean like nbdev?

ScottPJones 6y ago

I've also switched to using Pluto, shortly after seeing the presentation during JuliaCon. It is still rough around the edges, but I've found it a lot easier to deal with than Jupyter, quite frankly.