14 ms·

Show HN: Muse – Tool for Thought on iPad

266 points by adamwiggins 6y ago

adamwiggins 6y ago
Hey all, Muse cofounder here. I’ve been on Hacker News 13 years but this is my first Show HN. You might know me from YC08 and as Heroku cofounder and author of 12factor.net. Today my team and I are launching Muse, a thinking tool. Engineers sometimes talk about “typing problems” and “thinking problems”; Muse is for the latter. For example: designing a distributed system, doing a deep read of an algorithms paper, or creating a product roadmap. My colleagues and I spent a few years doing research at a lab called Ink & Switch. You can read HN discussions of our publications on software performance [1], the creative process [2], and local-first software [3]. [1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18506170 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18506170 [2]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20255457 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20255457 [3]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21581444 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21581444 One research question for us was whether touchscreens could ever be as powerful as desktop tools like vim or emacs. That resulted a prototype we named Muse. We saw commercial potential and spun it out of the lab last year. A founding insight for Muse is that deep thinking happens away from the computer. e.g. in a sketchbook, on a whiteboard, or just in your head. There are some up-and-coming tools for thought like Notion and Roam but they’re tied to the desktop/laptop form factor and primarily focused on text. We saw an opportunity for a thinking tool that blends together visual media, text, and offers spatial navigation on a tablet. Since this is a technical crowd, you might be interested in some of the challenges building this thing, like maintaining 120fps at all times. There is no concept of opening a file or a loading screen—you just navigate to a document and it’s already there. Ink rendering is another ongoing engineering challenge, from point simplification to curve fitting to stroke masking for the eraser. Happy to talk about any of this in the comments. We’re charging $100/year, comparable to other prosumer tools like Dropbox, Evernote, Roam, etc. There’s a generous free tier and you can export your data as a flat files (PNG, PDF, TXT). We’re building in public on Twitter: https://twitter.com/MuseAppHQ https://twitter.com/MuseAppHQ and Mark and I talk shop on our podcast: https://museapp.com/podcast https://museapp.com/podcast HN is known for sharp critique, so bring it on. Will also answer questions or accept praise if you feel like doing one of those :-)
- FreezerburnV 6y ago
  Hi Adam, great to see Muse finally launch! I saw it talked about in some of those earlier posts and have been interested in it for a while. I still need to actually install this and give it a try (saw it just before a work meeting sadly, about to have lunch with the spouse, etc.), but did want to ask a quick question about it in comparison to an iPad app I found recently called Endless Paper. The main point of it being to have an infinitely zoomable/scrollable “document” you can both draw on with a stylus but also import pictures you can draw over, etc. How does Muse compare to that kind of idea, and does it offer something similar to that? Or is it more of something like Tinderbox where you can organize a whole bunch of different things at a single “zoom level” in a sense? I’ll leave thoughts once I get a chance to play around with it some :)
  - adamwiggins 6y ago
    Thanks! Tinderbox (https://www.eastgate.com/Tinderbox/ https://www.eastgate.com/Tinderbox/) is a great comparison—they have a different design aesthetic, cost a bit more ($249 one-time), but similar use case of deep knowledge work and thinking. Endless Paper (https://www.endlesspaper.app/ https://www.endlesspaper.app/) is a sketching/drawing app, so not very similar to Muse. On the infinite canvas point: this is one of the things we researched in the lab. Our studies revealed that it sounds nice, but in practice it's incredibly disorienting because you have no sense of scale. That's why we have a discretely-zooming interface; the difference is subtle but critical for high-speed thinking working.
    - Johnathanb 6y ago
      A $249 one off charge is definitely not more expensive than a $100 a year subscription. You're trippin' bro
    - agambrahma 6y ago
      Wanted to chime in and "+1" the Tinderbox recommendation, and add that it's a bit less suited for heavy images being pasted in and edited, and more towards textual content -- but it more than makes up by offering combinations of layout, nesting, composition and "programmable" operations on these textual nodes.
natcombs 6y ago
I'd consider $100, but not a $100 per year subscription? Come on!
- hatsunearu 6y ago
  Yeah lol, they trippin I can do this shit for free with Concept or whatever and that one also works super well.
  - adamwiggins 6y ago
    Concepts (https://concepts.app/ https://concepts.app/) is great! But it's a drawing app, not really related.
    - hatsunearu 6y ago
      You can use it for lightweight technical drawings too. That's what I use it for.
    - jordache 6y ago
      i mean it's just a freeform canvas right? to collate clippings and ideas. Yes I see you have a grouping mechanism, but that's not the make / break feature. Concept can function as a virtual canvas just fine...
- adamwiggins 6y ago
  Out of curiosity, what's your take on the price of Dropbox ($120/year), Evernote ($96/year), or Roam ($165/year)?
  - evo_9 6y ago
    My hunch is most of the HN crowd are like me and were around before Dropbox got big. Aka, being on it early you tended to invite all your family and friends, and in doing so got a storage bump. I'm at roughly 10gigs from those early days and I have never paid for a dropbox subscription and I highly doubt I ever will. Great looking product though, maybe consider a special HN subscription code that makes that 100 lifetime. I do think that is a pretty tough selling price from a new product/just launching standup.
SparkyMcUnicorn 6y ago
All this talk of a free tier, but I can't see any information about it on the website or app store. Is it the "Free Trial", which indicates to me that it's a time limited demo? I want this information before installing yet another app that appears too expensive for the value it provides. If I think the free tier might work for me, I'm much more likely to be convinced to go paid once I experience the value it adds to my life. If this was $8/month I probably wouldn't have given the price a second thought, even though I'm fully capable of basic math.
- adamwiggins 6y ago
  Good feedback! We used to include the trial terms (unlimited time, up to 100 cards) in the signup email but now that it's direct download from the App Store we need to find another place. And good point about monthly vs yearly perception.
  - biztos 6y ago
    I also think that $8/mo (or $9, whatever) is a much lower barrier to entry. The difference here is I'm unsure how much I'd actually use it... so if I like it I'd happily pay monthly for a sort of extended "pro" trial, knowing that if it turns out I don't really use it I can just cancel in the App Store. At $100/year I have to be pretty sure I'll use it a lot: I probably have a dozen different subscriptions in that range but I definitely don't want two dozen. I'm not saying I won't give you the $100, just that I prefer to trial full-featured products and I'm happy to pay for an open-ended trial within reason. No idea how typical that attitude is.
raleighm 6y ago
Last year I stumbled upon the research articles about Muse development at Ink & Switch. They exude care and craftsmanship. Really fun to read. Highly recommended. Muse's newsletter is great, too. https://www.inkandswitch.com/ https://www.inkandswitch.com/ I didn't know anyone on the Muse team but was so curious I reached out and asked for beta access and they kindly gave it. I've been using for about a year. I really love it. My use cases are light -- hobby sketches, sundry visual notes -- but I keep finding more things to use it for because it's just so... fun. It's fun feeling so extended and free using a digital tool. I'm pleased to see it on HN front page.
- adamwiggins 6y ago
  A year, wow--that's the very earliest beta we made available. It was pretty rough back then, so thanks for sticking with it!
eugeniub 6y ago
Sorry, $100/year just feels too high. It's about the same price as a Photoshop subscription. Correction: Previously I got some numbers mixed up, and I said it's almost twice the price.
- adamwiggins 6y ago
  You're able to judge the fairness of the price without having tried the product? We have quite a few paying customers, and I think they'd say it's worth it because it helps them think and be creative in a way that no other tool does. But obviously that's a decision that's up to each person, and we offer a free tier so you can find out for yourself. Happily we're a small team, so we only need a few thousand customers at this price to make it sustainable.
  - biddit 6y ago
    You may find more value digging into why the grandparent (And many others here) didn’t find value from the demo and propositions on your home page, than arguing with us here. One of the most important concepts I learned doing 100’s of pitches is that understanding the value of your product is not the customer’s problem - it’s yours. Find a way to communicate it better :)
  - eugeniub 6y ago
    Honestly at that price point, I would not try it because I would fear liking it more than fear not liking it, because liking it means I have to fork over $100 every year to keep it. I'm not against subscription pricing, but this is my mentality, illogical as it may be.
- bosie 6y ago
  How do you get photoshop for 50 bucks a year?
  - eugeniub 6y ago
    My bad, I got some numbers mixed up. I updated my comment.
Wump 6y ago
There seems to be a lot of griping about the $100/year price here. The folks behind Muse have made what seems to be a solid product and want to charge for it to build a sustainable business. I don't understand what the issue is. On the one hand, people complain about having to pay for things (especially subscriptions). On the other, they complain about startups that try to grow fast, subsidize the cost of the product with venture money, and get acquired and shut down. I don't have a problem with either approach; I think they both have their place. But how can software developers trying to build great products (and businesses) escape this lose-lose scenario? You may not feel that this specific product is worth $100/year to you. That's fine; not everything is for everyone. But how do we, as a tech community, better support people and teams trying to create value in a sustainable way?
- ckluis 6y ago
  FWIW, I paid for this the second I crossed the free trial threshold. The polish is 1% level. It's truly a next-level product.
  - raleighm 6y ago
    I agree. That price for a great home to do great thinking? Well worth it.
- turtlebits 6y ago
  The subscription model for apps is a hard sell. Remember all the backlash Jetbrains got? Personally, I'm on the same page. I will pay for a service, but for an app, it has to be one I'm dependent on for in my work, not a personal note taking app that I may not use very often. Make me pay monthly for storage or subscription tier. Not just to use the app. This looks intriguing, but IMO, GoodNotes at $8 single purchase is good enough for me and is an infinitely better value. I normally trial new apps, but this one is just way too expensive.
- Closi 6y ago
  > But how do we, as a tech community, better support people and teams trying to create value in a sustainable way? By giving people honest feedback when they ask for it, including letting them know that their pricing structure what is stopping us purchasing it.
wmab 6y ago
Congrats on the launch, it's great to see the space develop as well as more applications being designed for specific uses, I can see Muse fitting in with my other iPad habits (such as Fresco for wire design), and targeting a specific user for their niche. The price tag certainly has HN crawling, clearly without downloading and seeing how simple it is to use with only an email. Most prosumer companies play down the cost, and highlight the free trial. Given the "power user" nature of getting up to speed with Muse (video + 9 "tasks" to complete) it's worth trying to remove all friction from installs since you'll get churn from a subset even before prompting them about the price, due to the commitment someone needs to make with new habit forming and learning. Will you be adding collaboration into the app? With remote teams increasing I can see this helping share ideas and promote collaboration outside of Google Docs/Notion/Figma etc. Did you dog food the development? I imagine designing and building the app would have required a lot of deep thinking!
- adamwiggins 6y ago
  Thanks, and yes collaboration is on the roadmap. Because thinking is first and foremost a private activity, we wanted to get the single-user experience right as a foundation. Heavy dogfooding, yes! I use Muse for absolutely everything in designing, planning, and thinking about strategy for our company and product. Can't imagine my life without it after a year of using the product.
  - wmab 6y ago
    Awesome. Keep it up and I look forward to seeing the feature roll out over the coming months!
- crusso 6y ago
  My thought on the pricing as well. Every drug user knows that you never talk about price because the "first hits are free".
tyre 6y ago
This is very cool. The price point was a shock. I think committing to a year-long subscription is a tough sell. Not because the product isn't great, but because I've tried apps before and then abandoned them because they didn't become a habit. Maybe it lasted a month, maybe two, but they never became part of my routine. So committing to paying for a year up front is a tough sell. The other question is why it is a subscription. Not why _you_ want it to be a subscription, but why the product needs to be. You mention in another comment that "all content is stored 100% on-device". So it's not that I'm paying for cloud storage (which I already have, and I don't have multiple iPads so it would be more of a peace of mind thing anyway.) I understand that it funds your continued development, but it's hard for me to see what that means. Is there a product roadmap so I can say, "Yeah, actually, I want to pay for those new features." Here's how I would pay: 1. One-time cost for software that would get updates until the next major version. 2. Monthly subscription for software if there is a product roadmap. I want to see what I'm buying. 3. Yearly subscription with a discount to (2). The commitment is worth something to you. It would have to be worth it to me too. Rough guesses: 1. $50 2. $10/mo 3. $100/yr
rememberlenny 6y ago
When I bought an iPad pro, I asked friends what are their favorite apps. One person religiously vouched for how much Muse has affected the way they work on a day to day. Like me, they are a artist and in the software space, and felt Muse gave them the ability to both organize things spatially, while making use of the iPad's drawing features in everything they do. I was able to get on the beta and found it quite satisfying as an application. Its basically the missing OS for iPad to let you do everything that you imagine the iPad is supposed to let you do.
- adamwiggins 6y ago
  This is amazing, thank you ️<3
moojd 6y ago
I've been looking for a note taking / chart app that worked spatially like this and that would allow you to zoom indefinitely from high level concepts into low level details. Specifically something that worked collaboratively like lucidchart, google docs, etc. Is there anything similar to this that works in the browser? I'm tempted to buy an iPad just to try this out. Looks great!
bookmarkable 6y ago
My feedback... 1. Trial is way too short for a $99 purchase. 2. Adding a photo, deleting, and re-adding uses up "trial cards" - so the trial is really just tutorial-level playing with the software. 3. Not clear why I can add elements to the top layer... why would I have an Empty Board and a photo next to each other? Why can't I drag the photo into the Empty Board? Instead, the photo covers the board. Confusing. 4. I know you aren't alone, but why do you need my email address before I know anything about this app? Just let me tap open and experiment before you ask. 5. If you must have an email, why aren't you supporting Sign in with Apple so I can use a relay email? 6. I'm not clear when I would open this app. I would've prefer a full page of example boards to see how power users would/will use this tool. I can always delete example boards, but instead I have a blank page and 4 second videos. That screams time investment and learning curve ahead.
- adamwiggins 6y ago
  Thanks for the feedback. - You can use the trial for unlimited time, and many folks do. - We've tried onboarding that includes sample boards, but this tends to be confusing because it's someone else's thoughts rather than your own. - There is a learning curve--we like tools take a bit of time investment, but one that will pay off with power and flexibility in the long run. vim and emacs were two inspirations here. https://museapp.com/handbook https://museapp.com/handbook
- jordache 6y ago
  they really should use MindNode's trial model.
lumax 6y ago
Nice to see Muse launch! I've been using the beta for a few months now after stumbling on the Ink & Switch design essay when researching tools for thought. It's awesome, I can recommend it wholeheartedly - the modeless interaction and spatial organisation might seem subtle, however they really enable a very smooth workflow that allows to think about something without being distracted by the tool. The best example is probably erasing something in Muse with the 'left finger on screen mode' in contrast to tapping an eraser symbol as in the standard design of note-taking apps. This gets internalized pretty quickly and then erasing doesn't distract ones line of thought anymore. I actually find myself doing this 'second finger erasing' by accident in other note-taking apps all the time. Like others in the comments, as a student I also found the price tag a bit hefty - however Adam Wiggins mentioned in an email that they are planning a ~30$/yr educational discount. I personally found that a lot more reasonable, maybe that's interesting to other students as well.
gklitt 6y ago
I've been using Muse for a while and it's a lovely, beautifully designed product. Feels like the rare tool that really gets the most out of my iPad Pro hardware. I use it for most of my deep brainstorming sessions. I'm a PhD student so I have a limited budget, but I don't mind the $100/year price point. It's become a key tool in my research workflow so it's totally worth it. I find it a bit odd that people think Netflix is worth more money than a tool that might transform your creative output.
- adamwiggins 6y ago
  You nailed it.
- bachmeier 6y ago
  > I find it a bit odd that people think Netflix is worth more money than a tool that might transform your creative output. I'm sure for some it will, but at least after a look at the website, I can't imagine it's going to transform my creative output relative to the system I already have for free. (Disclaimer: I don't have Netflix either.)
- timlloyd 6y ago
  I’m with you. The comparison with Netflix is pertinent for me. When lockdown started here in the U.K. I cancelled my subscription and started spending more time reading and exploring. Didn’t think twice about paying for Muse when the time came. There was an available slot in my subscription budget :p It helps me think things through, which helps me do better work, which makes me happy. And it feels good to support principled people who care about how tools, environments, aesthetics, affect our thoughts. No regrets. iPads/many things aren’t worth the price for some people. We don’t all have the same priorities, and that’s OK! Maybe the price doesn’t bother me much in the long term because for me, Muse isn’t where things end. It’s where they start, take shape, get fleshed out, discarded, iterated, improved. It’s my desk not my library. If a better “desk” comes along I’ll use that instead. But right now, Muse is it.
- natcombs 6y ago
  > I find it a bit odd that people think Netflix is worth more money than a tool that might transform your creative output. While the price is nearly the same, Netflix pays for thousands of employees and hundreds of actresses & crews to produce entertainment. This app doesn’t have hundreds of employees doing my thinking, reviewing my notes, or making suggestions. Apples & oranges
TYPE_FASTER 6y ago
Are you planning on offering some kind of API/integration ability? I'm thinking it would be great to have structured content, such as rendered org mode or Markdown, in a widget I can put on a board. Especially if I could link widgets and link to boards, which would allow for creating really interesting mind mapping abilities.
- adamwiggins 6y ago
  Yes! Check out our research on this topic: https://www.inkandswitch.com/end-user-programming.html https://www.inkandswitch.com/end-user-programming.html -- although a simple API and Shortcuts hooks would be a good starting place.
  - TYPE_FASTER 6y ago
    Cool, thanks for replying. I would also request a desktop version of the app. While the gestures would be different, it would be really nice to be able to share the content across devices.
news_to_me 6y ago
Just downloaded this, looking forward to fitting it into my workflow! It's a bit of a bummer that it only really supports landscape mode, though — I strongly prefer portrait mode when working on the iPad. What was the design decision to only (primarily) support one mode?
- adamwiggins 6y ago
  Portrait-orientation boards are coming soon!
8K832d7tNmiQ 6y ago
I'd buy it if it's 9 dollar a year, but a hundred is a stretch too much.
chrisjarvis 6y ago
this makes me want an iPad, looks beautiful, bookmarked for the future!
ogre_codes 6y ago
If the app stores all my data locally, why does it require an email? It doesn't even say why an email is required, just an annoying "Enter your email to get started" with no option to skip. I don't understand why apps have gotten so hostile towards curious users. For me, that's a hard Nope.
- bm5k 6y ago
  Yup. Made it to the email gatekeeper and uninstalled. The screenshots look neat though.
- bronson 6y ago
  Thank you! I would have bounced here too. You saved me the trouble.
- nickmain 6y ago
  Sign-in-with-Apple might be acceptable here, allowing the user to opt for an app-specific anonymous email. But the lack of explanation is baffling.
  - ogre_codes 6y ago
    If the data is stored locally, there is no need for any account/ email/ whatever anywhere. That's what is completely baffling here.
    - throwaway815190 6y ago
      It's a subscription based model. It needs your account/email to make sure you're still subscribed.
      - ogre_codes 6y ago
        No. All the subscription details go through the App Store.
- adamwiggins 6y ago
tobyhinloopen 6y ago
99$ per year? Well I guess Im not the target audience. Got to admit, it looks pretty nice. That price is just... nope. For the curious, I might have bought it for a one-time 20$ AND only directly from the app store, no 3rd party service dependencies
janandonly 6y ago
I can not imagine ever paying €109,99 per year for any app. Not even an app that I would use every day. But maybe I'm not the intended consumer?
bfirsh 6y ago
If you're in the early stage building a product, their podcast is extremely helpful. It really deserves a Show HN all of its own. https://museapp.com/podcast https://museapp.com/podcast I particularly enjoyed two recent ones, Authentic Marketing[0] and Principled Products[1] (which also has some background about 12 Factor Apps, if you remember that). Very useful for our stage where we have a new thing, but we're still trying to figure out how to explain it. Thanks Adam, et al! [0] https://overcast.fm/+Y-HVh9MxU https://overcast.fm/+Y-HVh9MxU [1] https://overcast.fm/+Y-HUBwJwA https://overcast.fm/+Y-HUBwJwA
sarora27 6y ago
Hi Adam, Thank you for sharing Muse! I love it. In one of your comments you mention: "There is a learning curve--we like tools take a bit of time investment, but one that will pay off with power and flexibility in the long run. vim and emacs were two inspirations here. " I'm building a product with a similar sort of learning curve. Do you have any resources you recommend for better understanding how to build these types of products? Thanks!
- adamwiggins 6y ago
  That's a really good question—I would love such a resource. There are some design discussions on the emacs mailing list about the tradeoff between accessibility and power tool that might be relevant: https://lwn.net/Articles/819452/ https://lwn.net/Articles/819452/ It's a whole new ballgame in the mobile era though. People have been trained to dismiss an app if they can't figure it out in 10 seconds of use. Mark and I talked about that on this podcast about our love of manuals, so maybe that's a start: https://museapp.com/podcast/3-read-the-fabulous-manual https://museapp.com/podcast/3-read-the-fabulous-manual
  - eitland 6y ago
    FWIW I enjoyed the manual. Too many tools go "all UX - no manual" and think a manual isn't necessary. Often I am afraid this leads to products that become less useful than they could have been.
janandonly 6y ago
I wanted to try this app. My iPhone firewall (lockdown.com) showed a bunch of tracking apps all ”calling home” to I uninstalled it without trying.
- bronson 6y ago
  https://lockdownhq.com https://lockdownhq.com Looks impressive, glad you mentioned it.
nkristoffersen 6y ago
This looks awesome! Congrats on the launch! I am a current paid user for Miro and use it in much the same way you show here but with the added benefit of allowing external collaborators on browsers. But, if I didn’t include so many external users, I’d try this. Hell I may try it right now any way. Looks so smooth.
- adamwiggins 6y ago
  Miro is a solid choice for group whiteboarding, and being native to the web has lots of advantages. Their iPad app is pretty good too. We wanted to start with getting the single-user experience completely right, but Miro-like collaboration is on the roadmap.
epaga 6y ago
This is nearly exactly my dream rewrite of my iOS app Mindscope http://www.mindscopeapp.com/ http://www.mindscopeapp.com/ that I never quite got around to doing. Love this. Congrats! Mindscope always was text (and later arrows) only, which had its advantages because it forced focus. But I love the Apple Pencil support! I love seeing your solutions to the same problems I encountered developing Mindscope. Especially Love your solution for dragging one card into another by dragging it then pinching into the other. It feels very natural. Major props.
jordache 6y ago
lol $100 for a year. What happens when the company goes away? How does world-class apps like Procreate make money? They've been providing free major updates for years!
- TheRealNGenius 6y ago
  I genuinely don't know. Would you care to explain how procreate makes money if you do know?
screye 6y ago
Looks like the new OneNote on steroids. I like it. I am deeply integrated with Office and Onenote at this point, so I don't see myself switching. But, it seems like something I was planning to do when I purchased my Surface pro 7.
srinathkrishna 6y ago
Been following your journey and I was waiting for the free tier. A free form note taking app is something I've missed and I think muse would perfectly fit this.
- srinathkrishna 6y ago
  Been using it for a couple of hours now. I'm sold with the PDF excerpt feature. Reading books and papers is going to be fun! Can you elaborate on the data residency aspects? It's mentioned that all data is stored on the iPad. Do I need to have an iCloud storage account eventually as I accumulate more notes?
  - ziburski 6y ago
    No need for iCloud storage. You are only limited by the storage on the iPad itself as everything is stored locally.
m0zg 6y ago
Impressive UX work, and looks genuinely useful, but I'm always wary of storing any of my work in proprietary formats without the ability to export it in readable form. Is there export? If I were to decide to stop the subscription, in what form can I download my work, if at all?
- ziburski 6y ago
  Yes, you can export all your content as a .muse bundle — which you can rename to a .zip and unzip to get all the source data. Also, even after your subscription ends, you will still have access to your content (and to the export feature) indefinitely. You just can’t create new cards (as long as you have more than 100). It’s really important to us that your data isn’t locked into Muse, not by the data format and not by a subscription requirement.
nafizh 6y ago
I read a lot of pdfs. But there doesn't seem to be any quick way to scroll through pages except by hand, zoom in or out a single page or search within a pdf. Basic functionalities actually.
diego898 6y ago
I'm extremely impressed with the demo/free tier so far! Out of curiosity, have you tried LiquidText? This is how I envisioned that app working! Also, so far, I can see myself //easily// getting lost in the nesting. In my "outer most" board, I had to handwrite "HOME" in the top left just to make easier. I think //searching// is a killer missing feature right now. Also, limits on board nesting depth, and board "templates" something to let me setup a "deep reading a PDF" board template that is reusable.
jordache 6y ago
Does each board have unlimited canvas size?
- shdc 6y ago
  Only in 1 dimension (x)
gitgud 6y ago
It's a beautiful app, but personally I don't see the need for a subscription service, if it's a standalone app (no mention of cloud hosting or back-end servers to maintain) and would expect a bit more detail before paying $100 USD/y.
biztos 6y ago
I think it looks pretty interesting and I will definitely give it a try. If I find it useful I don't have any problem with the price. I have several projects where something like this, done "right" (whatever that means for me) could be a big help: starting a newsletter; moving to a new city; writing a book; maybe also building an app. I wonder, though, how is it not "just" an interactive Mood Board? So I can put in some screenshots and links and add some text and sketch on it, this by itself could be good for research... but how do I connect things? Is there some kind of hierarchy I can apply? Will it give me some kind of insight after the fact or do I just play with my Boards and then, I dunno, export them when I'm done? I found the Handbook pretty helpful but I would suggest having a couple videos available on the landing page so I can easily get a sense of what you can do with the app. And at least one of them should be a power-user example. Good luck with it! I like the idea of the single-app business with a small team; I hope it works out for you.
biztos 6y ago
Oh wow, you have to enter your email address to even try out the app. That’s a way bigger barrier to entry than a $100 price point. Until they change that, there’s no way I’m using or recommending their app. Is this now considered acceptable for productivity apps? Edit: and how does that work with GDPR?
desireco42 6y ago
I wouldn't mind paying you as a company or dev $100, but just the fact that Apple will take $30 is giving me shivers. It is brutal.
disposedtrolley 6y ago
I used Muse during the private beta and found it to be a refreshing take on free-form note taking. I've yet to figure out how to incorporate it into my workflow, but I'm very, very happy to see a passionate team working on fluid, performant software. The gestural interface and limited toolset made it easy to focus on taking notes and arranging thoughts rather than "fighting the program" and wasting time choosing between dozens of pens and colours. Best of luck with the launch!
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ta1234567890 6y ago
Looks cool. Reminded me of padlet.com
alphachloride 6y ago
How would you compare this to Microsoft OneNote? It is free and cross platform. It also lets you put "anything" on your space and lets you scribble or type anywhere. What would you say justifies the $99 jump to Muse? https://apps.apple.com/us/app/microsoft-onenote/id410395246 https://apps.apple.com/us/app/microsoft-onenote/id410395246
- shdc 6y ago
  I'm able to play videos through Muse.. which is so far useful. Wish muse had infinite scroll and zoom.
eitland 6y ago
I've tested it a bit: - This looks really promising. It is aleady quite usable and there are some really nify ideas in there. - The price is extremely steep for an app and in addition it it is recurring and the only options are yearly payments. - Looking at what those guys have created and written before this looks like something I could lobe in the long run (end user programmability, local first etc) To say exactly how good it is: if there was a monthly payment option I'd probably have signed up already just to support it (I do that from time to time with ideas I love even thought I often end up cancelling most of them.)
copypasted 6y ago
In defense of price... I'd consider it as much an investment in the iPad itself as it is in the software. In other words, assuming you have already bought an iPad, I'd argue there are hardly any apps that truly take advantage of the tablet interface (exceptions include Affinity by Serif, Procreate). For me, Muse took an expensive screen and delivered on the promise of the iPad/tablet that Apple/the rest of the tech world fumbled. Long live Muse...

266 points by adamwiggins 6y ago

Hey all, Muse cofounder here. I’ve been on Hacker News 13 years but this is my first Show HN. You might know me from YC08 and as Heroku cofounder and author of 12factor.net. Today my team and I are launching Muse, a thinking tool. Engineers sometimes talk about “typing problems” and “thinking problems”; Muse is for the latter. For example: designing a distributed system, doing a deep read of an algorithms paper, or creating a product roadmap. My colleagues and I spent a few years doing research at a lab called Ink & Switch. You can read HN discussions of our publications on software performance [1], the creative process [2], and local-first software [3]. [1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18506170 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18506170 [2]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20255457 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20255457 [3]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21581444 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21581444 One research question for us was whether touchscreens could ever be as powerful as desktop tools like vim or emacs. That resulted a prototype we named Muse. We saw commercial potential and spun it out of the lab last year. A founding insight for Muse is that deep thinking happens away from the computer. e.g. in a sketchbook, on a whiteboard, or just in your head. There are some up-and-coming tools for thought like Notion and Roam but they’re tied to the desktop/laptop form factor and primarily focused on text. We saw an opportunity for a thinking tool that blends together visual media, text, and offers spatial navigation on a tablet. Since this is a technical crowd, you might be interested in some of the challenges building this thing, like maintaining 120fps at all times. There is no concept of opening a file or a loading screen—you just navigate to a document and it’s already there. Ink rendering is another ongoing engineering challenge, from point simplification to curve fitting to stroke masking for the eraser. Happy to talk about any of this in the comments. We’re charging $100/year, comparable to other prosumer tools like Dropbox, Evernote, Roam, etc. There’s a generous free tier and you can export your data as a flat files (PNG, PDF, TXT). We’re building in public on Twitter: https://twitter.com/MuseAppHQ https://twitter.com/MuseAppHQ and Mark and I talk shop on our podcast: https://museapp.com/podcast https://museapp.com/podcast HN is known for sharp critique, so bring it on. Will also answer questions or accept praise if you feel like doing one of those :-)

FreezerburnV 6y ago
Hi Adam, great to see Muse finally launch! I saw it talked about in some of those earlier posts and have been interested in it for a while. I still need to actually install this and give it a try (saw it just before a work meeting sadly, about to have lunch with the spouse, etc.), but did want to ask a quick question about it in comparison to an iPad app I found recently called Endless Paper. The main point of it being to have an infinitely zoomable/scrollable “document” you can both draw on with a stylus but also import pictures you can draw over, etc. How does Muse compare to that kind of idea, and does it offer something similar to that? Or is it more of something like Tinderbox where you can organize a whole bunch of different things at a single “zoom level” in a sense? I’ll leave thoughts once I get a chance to play around with it some :)
- adamwiggins 6y ago
  Thanks! Tinderbox (https://www.eastgate.com/Tinderbox/ https://www.eastgate.com/Tinderbox/) is a great comparison—they have a different design aesthetic, cost a bit more ($249 one-time), but similar use case of deep knowledge work and thinking. Endless Paper (https://www.endlesspaper.app/ https://www.endlesspaper.app/) is a sketching/drawing app, so not very similar to Muse. On the infinite canvas point: this is one of the things we researched in the lab. Our studies revealed that it sounds nice, but in practice it's incredibly disorienting because you have no sense of scale. That's why we have a discretely-zooming interface; the difference is subtle but critical for high-speed thinking working.
  - Johnathanb 6y ago
    A $249 one off charge is definitely not more expensive than a $100 a year subscription. You're trippin' bro
  - agambrahma 6y ago
    Wanted to chime in and "+1" the Tinderbox recommendation, and add that it's a bit less suited for heavy images being pasted in and edited, and more towards textual content -- but it more than makes up by offering combinations of layout, nesting, composition and "programmable" operations on these textual nodes.

natcombs 6y ago

I'd consider $100, but not a $100 per year subscription? Come on!

hatsunearu 6y ago
Yeah lol, they trippin I can do this shit for free with Concept or whatever and that one also works super well.
- adamwiggins 6y ago
  Concepts (https://concepts.app/ https://concepts.app/) is great! But it's a drawing app, not really related.
  - hatsunearu 6y ago
    You can use it for lightweight technical drawings too. That's what I use it for.
  - jordache 6y ago
    i mean it's just a freeform canvas right? to collate clippings and ideas. Yes I see you have a grouping mechanism, but that's not the make / break feature. Concept can function as a virtual canvas just fine...
adamwiggins 6y ago
Out of curiosity, what's your take on the price of Dropbox ($120/year), Evernote ($96/year), or Roam ($165/year)?
- evo_9 6y ago
  My hunch is most of the HN crowd are like me and were around before Dropbox got big. Aka, being on it early you tended to invite all your family and friends, and in doing so got a storage bump. I'm at roughly 10gigs from those early days and I have never paid for a dropbox subscription and I highly doubt I ever will. Great looking product though, maybe consider a special HN subscription code that makes that 100 lifetime. I do think that is a pretty tough selling price from a new product/just launching standup.

SparkyMcUnicorn 6y ago

All this talk of a free tier, but I can't see any information about it on the website or app store. Is it the "Free Trial", which indicates to me that it's a time limited demo? I want this information before installing yet another app that appears too expensive for the value it provides. If I think the free tier might work for me, I'm much more likely to be convinced to go paid once I experience the value it adds to my life. If this was $8/month I probably wouldn't have given the price a second thought, even though I'm fully capable of basic math.

adamwiggins 6y ago
Good feedback! We used to include the trial terms (unlimited time, up to 100 cards) in the signup email but now that it's direct download from the App Store we need to find another place. And good point about monthly vs yearly perception.
- biztos 6y ago
  I also think that $8/mo (or $9, whatever) is a much lower barrier to entry. The difference here is I'm unsure how much I'd actually use it... so if I like it I'd happily pay monthly for a sort of extended "pro" trial, knowing that if it turns out I don't really use it I can just cancel in the App Store. At $100/year I have to be pretty sure I'll use it a lot: I probably have a dozen different subscriptions in that range but I definitely don't want two dozen. I'm not saying I won't give you the $100, just that I prefer to trial full-featured products and I'm happy to pay for an open-ended trial within reason. No idea how typical that attitude is.

raleighm 6y ago

Last year I stumbled upon the research articles about Muse development at Ink & Switch. They exude care and craftsmanship. Really fun to read. Highly recommended. Muse's newsletter is great, too. https://www.inkandswitch.com/ https://www.inkandswitch.com/ I didn't know anyone on the Muse team but was so curious I reached out and asked for beta access and they kindly gave it. I've been using for about a year. I really love it. My use cases are light -- hobby sketches, sundry visual notes -- but I keep finding more things to use it for because it's just so... fun. It's fun feeling so extended and free using a digital tool. I'm pleased to see it on HN front page.

adamwiggins 6y ago
A year, wow--that's the very earliest beta we made available. It was pretty rough back then, so thanks for sticking with it!

eugeniub 6y ago

Sorry, $100/year just feels too high. It's about the same price as a Photoshop subscription. Correction: Previously I got some numbers mixed up, and I said it's almost twice the price.

adamwiggins 6y ago
You're able to judge the fairness of the price without having tried the product? We have quite a few paying customers, and I think they'd say it's worth it because it helps them think and be creative in a way that no other tool does. But obviously that's a decision that's up to each person, and we offer a free tier so you can find out for yourself. Happily we're a small team, so we only need a few thousand customers at this price to make it sustainable.
- biddit 6y ago
  You may find more value digging into why the grandparent (And many others here) didn’t find value from the demo and propositions on your home page, than arguing with us here. One of the most important concepts I learned doing 100’s of pitches is that understanding the value of your product is not the customer’s problem - it’s yours. Find a way to communicate it better :)
- eugeniub 6y ago
  Honestly at that price point, I would not try it because I would fear liking it more than fear not liking it, because liking it means I have to fork over $100 every year to keep it. I'm not against subscription pricing, but this is my mentality, illogical as it may be.
bosie 6y ago
How do you get photoshop for 50 bucks a year?
- eugeniub 6y ago
  My bad, I got some numbers mixed up. I updated my comment.

Wump 6y ago

There seems to be a lot of griping about the $100/year price here. The folks behind Muse have made what seems to be a solid product and want to charge for it to build a sustainable business. I don't understand what the issue is. On the one hand, people complain about having to pay for things (especially subscriptions). On the other, they complain about startups that try to grow fast, subsidize the cost of the product with venture money, and get acquired and shut down. I don't have a problem with either approach; I think they both have their place. But how can software developers trying to build great products (and businesses) escape this lose-lose scenario? You may not feel that this specific product is worth $100/year to you. That's fine; not everything is for everyone. But how do we, as a tech community, better support people and teams trying to create value in a sustainable way?

ckluis 6y ago
FWIW, I paid for this the second I crossed the free trial threshold. The polish is 1% level. It's truly a next-level product.
- raleighm 6y ago
  I agree. That price for a great home to do great thinking? Well worth it.
turtlebits 6y ago
The subscription model for apps is a hard sell. Remember all the backlash Jetbrains got? Personally, I'm on the same page. I will pay for a service, but for an app, it has to be one I'm dependent on for in my work, not a personal note taking app that I may not use very often. Make me pay monthly for storage or subscription tier. Not just to use the app. This looks intriguing, but IMO, GoodNotes at $8 single purchase is good enough for me and is an infinitely better value. I normally trial new apps, but this one is just way too expensive.
Closi 6y ago
> But how do we, as a tech community, better support people and teams trying to create value in a sustainable way? By giving people honest feedback when they ask for it, including letting them know that their pricing structure what is stopping us purchasing it.

wmab 6y ago

Congrats on the launch, it's great to see the space develop as well as more applications being designed for specific uses, I can see Muse fitting in with my other iPad habits (such as Fresco for wire design), and targeting a specific user for their niche. The price tag certainly has HN crawling, clearly without downloading and seeing how simple it is to use with only an email. Most prosumer companies play down the cost, and highlight the free trial. Given the "power user" nature of getting up to speed with Muse (video + 9 "tasks" to complete) it's worth trying to remove all friction from installs since you'll get churn from a subset even before prompting them about the price, due to the commitment someone needs to make with new habit forming and learning. Will you be adding collaboration into the app? With remote teams increasing I can see this helping share ideas and promote collaboration outside of Google Docs/Notion/Figma etc. Did you dog food the development? I imagine designing and building the app would have required a lot of deep thinking!

adamwiggins 6y ago
Thanks, and yes collaboration is on the roadmap. Because thinking is first and foremost a private activity, we wanted to get the single-user experience right as a foundation. Heavy dogfooding, yes! I use Muse for absolutely everything in designing, planning, and thinking about strategy for our company and product. Can't imagine my life without it after a year of using the product.
- wmab 6y ago
  Awesome. Keep it up and I look forward to seeing the feature roll out over the coming months!
crusso 6y ago
My thought on the pricing as well. Every drug user knows that you never talk about price because the "first hits are free".

tyre 6y ago

This is very cool. The price point was a shock. I think committing to a year-long subscription is a tough sell. Not because the product isn't great, but because I've tried apps before and then abandoned them because they didn't become a habit. Maybe it lasted a month, maybe two, but they never became part of my routine. So committing to paying for a year up front is a tough sell. The other question is why it is a subscription. Not why _you_ want it to be a subscription, but why the product needs to be. You mention in another comment that "all content is stored 100% on-device". So it's not that I'm paying for cloud storage (which I already have, and I don't have multiple iPads so it would be more of a peace of mind thing anyway.) I understand that it funds your continued development, but it's hard for me to see what that means. Is there a product roadmap so I can say, "Yeah, actually, I want to pay for those new features." Here's how I would pay: 1. One-time cost for software that would get updates until the next major version. 2. Monthly subscription for software if there is a product roadmap. I want to see what I'm buying. 3. Yearly subscription with a discount to (2). The commitment is worth something to you. It would have to be worth it to me too. Rough guesses: 1. $50 2. $10/mo 3. $100/yr

rememberlenny 6y ago

When I bought an iPad pro, I asked friends what are their favorite apps. One person religiously vouched for how much Muse has affected the way they work on a day to day. Like me, they are a artist and in the software space, and felt Muse gave them the ability to both organize things spatially, while making use of the iPad's drawing features in everything they do. I was able to get on the beta and found it quite satisfying as an application. Its basically the missing OS for iPad to let you do everything that you imagine the iPad is supposed to let you do.

adamwiggins 6y ago
This is amazing, thank you ️<3

moojd 6y ago

I've been looking for a note taking / chart app that worked spatially like this and that would allow you to zoom indefinitely from high level concepts into low level details. Specifically something that worked collaboratively like lucidchart, google docs, etc. Is there anything similar to this that works in the browser? I'm tempted to buy an iPad just to try this out. Looks great!

bookmarkable 6y ago

My feedback... 1. Trial is way too short for a $99 purchase. 2. Adding a photo, deleting, and re-adding uses up "trial cards" - so the trial is really just tutorial-level playing with the software. 3. Not clear why I can add elements to the top layer... why would I have an Empty Board and a photo next to each other? Why can't I drag the photo into the Empty Board? Instead, the photo covers the board. Confusing. 4. I know you aren't alone, but why do you need my email address before I know anything about this app? Just let me tap open and experiment before you ask. 5. If you must have an email, why aren't you supporting Sign in with Apple so I can use a relay email? 6. I'm not clear when I would open this app. I would've prefer a full page of example boards to see how power users would/will use this tool. I can always delete example boards, but instead I have a blank page and 4 second videos. That screams time investment and learning curve ahead.

adamwiggins 6y ago
Thanks for the feedback. - You can use the trial for unlimited time, and many folks do. - We've tried onboarding that includes sample boards, but this tends to be confusing because it's someone else's thoughts rather than your own. - There is a learning curve--we like tools take a bit of time investment, but one that will pay off with power and flexibility in the long run. vim and emacs were two inspirations here. https://museapp.com/handbook https://museapp.com/handbook
jordache 6y ago
they really should use MindNode's trial model.

lumax 6y ago

Nice to see Muse launch! I've been using the beta for a few months now after stumbling on the Ink & Switch design essay when researching tools for thought. It's awesome, I can recommend it wholeheartedly - the modeless interaction and spatial organisation might seem subtle, however they really enable a very smooth workflow that allows to think about something without being distracted by the tool. The best example is probably erasing something in Muse with the 'left finger on screen mode' in contrast to tapping an eraser symbol as in the standard design of note-taking apps. This gets internalized pretty quickly and then erasing doesn't distract ones line of thought anymore. I actually find myself doing this 'second finger erasing' by accident in other note-taking apps all the time. Like others in the comments, as a student I also found the price tag a bit hefty - however Adam Wiggins mentioned in an email that they are planning a ~30$/yr educational discount. I personally found that a lot more reasonable, maybe that's interesting to other students as well.

gklitt 6y ago

I've been using Muse for a while and it's a lovely, beautifully designed product. Feels like the rare tool that really gets the most out of my iPad Pro hardware. I use it for most of my deep brainstorming sessions. I'm a PhD student so I have a limited budget, but I don't mind the $100/year price point. It's become a key tool in my research workflow so it's totally worth it. I find it a bit odd that people think Netflix is worth more money than a tool that might transform your creative output.

adamwiggins 6y ago
You nailed it.
bachmeier 6y ago
> I find it a bit odd that people think Netflix is worth more money than a tool that might transform your creative output. I'm sure for some it will, but at least after a look at the website, I can't imagine it's going to transform my creative output relative to the system I already have for free. (Disclaimer: I don't have Netflix either.)
timlloyd 6y ago
I’m with you. The comparison with Netflix is pertinent for me. When lockdown started here in the U.K. I cancelled my subscription and started spending more time reading and exploring. Didn’t think twice about paying for Muse when the time came. There was an available slot in my subscription budget :p It helps me think things through, which helps me do better work, which makes me happy. And it feels good to support principled people who care about how tools, environments, aesthetics, affect our thoughts. No regrets. iPads/many things aren’t worth the price for some people. We don’t all have the same priorities, and that’s OK! Maybe the price doesn’t bother me much in the long term because for me, Muse isn’t where things end. It’s where they start, take shape, get fleshed out, discarded, iterated, improved. It’s my desk not my library. If a better “desk” comes along I’ll use that instead. But right now, Muse is it.
natcombs 6y ago
> I find it a bit odd that people think Netflix is worth more money than a tool that might transform your creative output. While the price is nearly the same, Netflix pays for thousands of employees and hundreds of actresses & crews to produce entertainment. This app doesn’t have hundreds of employees doing my thinking, reviewing my notes, or making suggestions. Apples & oranges

TYPE_FASTER 6y ago

Are you planning on offering some kind of API/integration ability? I'm thinking it would be great to have structured content, such as rendered org mode or Markdown, in a widget I can put on a board. Especially if I could link widgets and link to boards, which would allow for creating really interesting mind mapping abilities.

adamwiggins 6y ago
Yes! Check out our research on this topic: https://www.inkandswitch.com/end-user-programming.html https://www.inkandswitch.com/end-user-programming.html -- although a simple API and Shortcuts hooks would be a good starting place.
- TYPE_FASTER 6y ago
  Cool, thanks for replying. I would also request a desktop version of the app. While the gestures would be different, it would be really nice to be able to share the content across devices.

news_to_me 6y ago

Just downloaded this, looking forward to fitting it into my workflow! It's a bit of a bummer that it only really supports landscape mode, though — I strongly prefer portrait mode when working on the iPad. What was the design decision to only (primarily) support one mode?

adamwiggins 6y ago
Portrait-orientation boards are coming soon!

8K832d7tNmiQ 6y ago

I'd buy it if it's 9 dollar a year, but a hundred is a stretch too much.

chrisjarvis 6y ago

this makes me want an iPad, looks beautiful, bookmarked for the future!

ogre_codes 6y ago

If the app stores all my data locally, why does it require an email? It doesn't even say why an email is required, just an annoying "Enter your email to get started" with no option to skip. I don't understand why apps have gotten so hostile towards curious users. For me, that's a hard Nope.

bm5k 6y ago
Yup. Made it to the email gatekeeper and uninstalled. The screenshots look neat though.
bronson 6y ago
Thank you! I would have bounced here too. You saved me the trouble.
nickmain 6y ago
Sign-in-with-Apple might be acceptable here, allowing the user to opt for an app-specific anonymous email. But the lack of explanation is baffling.
- ogre_codes 6y ago
  If the data is stored locally, there is no need for any account/ email/ whatever anywhere. That's what is completely baffling here.
  - throwaway815190 6y ago
    It's a subscription based model. It needs your account/email to make sure you're still subscribed.
    - ogre_codes 6y ago
      No. All the subscription details go through the App Store.
adamwiggins 6y ago

tobyhinloopen 6y ago

99$ per year? Well I guess Im not the target audience. Got to admit, it looks pretty nice. That price is just... nope. For the curious, I might have bought it for a one-time 20$ AND only directly from the app store, no 3rd party service dependencies

janandonly 6y ago

I can not imagine ever paying €109,99 per year for any app. Not even an app that I would use every day. But maybe I'm not the intended consumer?

bfirsh 6y ago

If you're in the early stage building a product, their podcast is extremely helpful. It really deserves a Show HN all of its own. https://museapp.com/podcast https://museapp.com/podcast I particularly enjoyed two recent ones, Authentic Marketing[0] and Principled Products[1] (which also has some background about 12 Factor Apps, if you remember that). Very useful for our stage where we have a new thing, but we're still trying to figure out how to explain it. Thanks Adam, et al! [0] https://overcast.fm/+Y-HVh9MxU https://overcast.fm/+Y-HVh9MxU [1] https://overcast.fm/+Y-HUBwJwA https://overcast.fm/+Y-HUBwJwA

sarora27 6y ago

Hi Adam, Thank you for sharing Muse! I love it. In one of your comments you mention: "There is a learning curve--we like tools take a bit of time investment, but one that will pay off with power and flexibility in the long run. vim and emacs were two inspirations here. " I'm building a product with a similar sort of learning curve. Do you have any resources you recommend for better understanding how to build these types of products? Thanks!

adamwiggins 6y ago
That's a really good question—I would love such a resource. There are some design discussions on the emacs mailing list about the tradeoff between accessibility and power tool that might be relevant: https://lwn.net/Articles/819452/ https://lwn.net/Articles/819452/ It's a whole new ballgame in the mobile era though. People have been trained to dismiss an app if they can't figure it out in 10 seconds of use. Mark and I talked about that on this podcast about our love of manuals, so maybe that's a start: https://museapp.com/podcast/3-read-the-fabulous-manual https://museapp.com/podcast/3-read-the-fabulous-manual
- eitland 6y ago
  FWIW I enjoyed the manual. Too many tools go "all UX - no manual" and think a manual isn't necessary. Often I am afraid this leads to products that become less useful than they could have been.

janandonly 6y ago

I wanted to try this app. My iPhone firewall (lockdown.com) showed a bunch of tracking apps all ”calling home” to I uninstalled it without trying.

bronson 6y ago
https://lockdownhq.com https://lockdownhq.com Looks impressive, glad you mentioned it.

nkristoffersen 6y ago

This looks awesome! Congrats on the launch! I am a current paid user for Miro and use it in much the same way you show here but with the added benefit of allowing external collaborators on browsers. But, if I didn’t include so many external users, I’d try this. Hell I may try it right now any way. Looks so smooth.

adamwiggins 6y ago
Miro is a solid choice for group whiteboarding, and being native to the web has lots of advantages. Their iPad app is pretty good too. We wanted to start with getting the single-user experience completely right, but Miro-like collaboration is on the roadmap.

epaga 6y ago

This is nearly exactly my dream rewrite of my iOS app Mindscope http://www.mindscopeapp.com/ http://www.mindscopeapp.com/ that I never quite got around to doing. Love this. Congrats! Mindscope always was text (and later arrows) only, which had its advantages because it forced focus. But I love the Apple Pencil support! I love seeing your solutions to the same problems I encountered developing Mindscope. Especially Love your solution for dragging one card into another by dragging it then pinching into the other. It feels very natural. Major props.

jordache 6y ago

lol $100 for a year. What happens when the company goes away? How does world-class apps like Procreate make money? They've been providing free major updates for years!

TheRealNGenius 6y ago
I genuinely don't know. Would you care to explain how procreate makes money if you do know?

screye 6y ago

Looks like the new OneNote on steroids. I like it. I am deeply integrated with Office and Onenote at this point, so I don't see myself switching. But, it seems like something I was planning to do when I purchased my Surface pro 7.

srinathkrishna 6y ago

Been following your journey and I was waiting for the free tier. A free form note taking app is something I've missed and I think muse would perfectly fit this.

srinathkrishna 6y ago
Been using it for a couple of hours now. I'm sold with the PDF excerpt feature. Reading books and papers is going to be fun! Can you elaborate on the data residency aspects? It's mentioned that all data is stored on the iPad. Do I need to have an iCloud storage account eventually as I accumulate more notes?
- ziburski 6y ago
  No need for iCloud storage. You are only limited by the storage on the iPad itself as everything is stored locally.

m0zg 6y ago

Impressive UX work, and looks genuinely useful, but I'm always wary of storing any of my work in proprietary formats without the ability to export it in readable form. Is there export? If I were to decide to stop the subscription, in what form can I download my work, if at all?

ziburski 6y ago
Yes, you can export all your content as a .muse bundle — which you can rename to a .zip and unzip to get all the source data. Also, even after your subscription ends, you will still have access to your content (and to the export feature) indefinitely. You just can’t create new cards (as long as you have more than 100). It’s really important to us that your data isn’t locked into Muse, not by the data format and not by a subscription requirement.

nafizh 6y ago

I read a lot of pdfs. But there doesn't seem to be any quick way to scroll through pages except by hand, zoom in or out a single page or search within a pdf. Basic functionalities actually.

diego898 6y ago

I'm extremely impressed with the demo/free tier so far! Out of curiosity, have you tried LiquidText? This is how I envisioned that app working! Also, so far, I can see myself //easily// getting lost in the nesting. In my "outer most" board, I had to handwrite "HOME" in the top left just to make easier. I think //searching// is a killer missing feature right now. Also, limits on board nesting depth, and board "templates" something to let me setup a "deep reading a PDF" board template that is reusable.

jordache 6y ago

Does each board have unlimited canvas size?

shdc 6y ago
Only in 1 dimension (x)

gitgud 6y ago

It's a beautiful app, but personally I don't see the need for a subscription service, if it's a standalone app (no mention of cloud hosting or back-end servers to maintain) and would expect a bit more detail before paying $100 USD/y.

biztos 6y ago

I think it looks pretty interesting and I will definitely give it a try. If I find it useful I don't have any problem with the price. I have several projects where something like this, done "right" (whatever that means for me) could be a big help: starting a newsletter; moving to a new city; writing a book; maybe also building an app. I wonder, though, how is it not "just" an interactive Mood Board? So I can put in some screenshots and links and add some text and sketch on it, this by itself could be good for research... but how do I connect things? Is there some kind of hierarchy I can apply? Will it give me some kind of insight after the fact or do I just play with my Boards and then, I dunno, export them when I'm done? I found the Handbook pretty helpful but I would suggest having a couple videos available on the landing page so I can easily get a sense of what you can do with the app. And at least one of them should be a power-user example. Good luck with it! I like the idea of the single-app business with a small team; I hope it works out for you.

biztos 6y ago

Oh wow, you have to enter your email address to even try out the app. That’s a way bigger barrier to entry than a $100 price point. Until they change that, there’s no way I’m using or recommending their app. Is this now considered acceptable for productivity apps? Edit: and how does that work with GDPR?

desireco42 6y ago

I wouldn't mind paying you as a company or dev $100, but just the fact that Apple will take $30 is giving me shivers. It is brutal.

disposedtrolley 6y ago

I used Muse during the private beta and found it to be a refreshing take on free-form note taking. I've yet to figure out how to incorporate it into my workflow, but I'm very, very happy to see a passionate team working on fluid, performant software. The gestural interface and limited toolset made it easy to focus on taking notes and arranging thoughts rather than "fighting the program" and wasting time choosing between dozens of pens and colours. Best of luck with the launch!

deleted 6y ago

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ta1234567890 6y ago

Looks cool. Reminded me of padlet.com

alphachloride 6y ago

How would you compare this to Microsoft OneNote? It is free and cross platform. It also lets you put "anything" on your space and lets you scribble or type anywhere. What would you say justifies the $99 jump to Muse? https://apps.apple.com/us/app/microsoft-onenote/id410395246 https://apps.apple.com/us/app/microsoft-onenote/id410395246

shdc 6y ago
I'm able to play videos through Muse.. which is so far useful. Wish muse had infinite scroll and zoom.

eitland 6y ago

I've tested it a bit: - This looks really promising. It is aleady quite usable and there are some really nify ideas in there. - The price is extremely steep for an app and in addition it it is recurring and the only options are yearly payments. - Looking at what those guys have created and written before this looks like something I could lobe in the long run (end user programmability, local first etc) To say exactly how good it is: if there was a monthly payment option I'd probably have signed up already just to support it (I do that from time to time with ideas I love even thought I often end up cancelling most of them.)

copypasted 6y ago

In defense of price... I'd consider it as much an investment in the iPad itself as it is in the software. In other words, assuming you have already bought an iPad, I'd argue there are hardly any apps that truly take advantage of the tablet interface (exceptions include Affinity by Serif, Procreate). For me, Muse took an expensive screen and delivered on the promise of the iPad/tablet that Apple/the rest of the tech world fumbled. Long live Muse...