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> it's not always practical Any reason why not here? > consumer rights only protect individuals he's an individual. It was not apparently a business expense

> it's not always practical Any reason why not here? > consumer rights only protect individuals he's an individual. It was not apparently a business expense > with little if any protection If you're in the EU you've got protection. > that modern devices often contain large amounts of private data It's a TV so in this case so what (in general, perhaps, but don't most devices have encryption?) > And it's all rather academic anyway if competition in that market has failed and all the major products are doing to same user-hostile things And you're rolling over hopelessly as if you can't do anything. Fair enough, you get (nothing) what you give (nothing). > because representatives usually aren't technical experts and so may not understand the implications of modern technologies or the potential alternatives to current practice IT'S A TV! WITH CRAPPY UI RESPONSE! Stop making excuses for bad practice. Do something. > the tide of increasingly user-hostile actions will only continue to rise OK, let's stop here. I complain when necessary & shit gets fixed quite often. You clearly can't be bothered to fight back so you're rationalising that it's not worth it. I'm not wasting time on this.

Silhouette 6y ago
This is a much bigger issue than just TVs. And you seem to have ignored my entire final paragraph, which was about what I think we need to do to improve the situation. I am doing my part; I contact my representatives to draw tech issues to their attention, for example, and I donate to various relevant campaign groups. But I am only one person, and it will take more than just me and a few people like me to effect change on the required scale.
- throwaway_pdp09 6y ago
  > This is a much bigger issue than just TVs. You start somewhere > And you seem to have ignored my entire final paragraph which culminated in >> sadly, it seems a lot of people either don't care enough to do that instead of moaning on Twitter of Facebook and then accepting their fate. which is you accepting your fate, it seems. You suggested nothing useful, only moaned that others couldn't be bothered. In summary you built up a case of hopelessness and accused others of it. How come I often get results when I bug manufacturers? Your apathy superpower is painful to see. Thank you but that's quite enough, I prefer to get results instead.
  - whatisthiseven 6y ago
    How do you get results, and what kind of results have you got from bugging manufacturers? Genuinely curious.
    - throwaway_pdp09 6y ago
      Hard to make a list, and it's more general than just products, but taking a company to court after it screwed me over (I won which started a stream of other complainants against them once they saw it was possible), opening a machine I'd bought and finding it messed up inside and taking that back to the shop in person and telling them I wasn't going away until they fixed it (self-entitled boss was angry but they did), getting a misbehaving server from rackspace and despite their stonewalling got enough info to prove it defective so they finally replaced it (my boss was willing to live with clear performance problems out of apathy; I wasn't). There's more, some involving products rather than services but can't dig them up ATM. Helpful? Key is persistence.
  - rglullis 6y ago
    You are getting "results" in a Sisyphean task. The one you are responding to is talking about the larger issue. Sure, do exercise your right as a consumer and do more than just complaining. If I ever bought something that started performing this badly I would return it as well. Problem is, what do you trade it for? I'd like to find a 50" TV with no smart TV features. Will your complaining and nagging on review sites going to make this a reality? As long as we keep accepting only the choices provided by the status quo all you are getting is a slightly more comfortable golden cage. This is what makes GP feel powerless.
    - throwaway_pdp09 6y ago
      Sisyphus didn't get results, that was the point of his fate. I get results. OK, nitpick over, I have trouble disagreeing with you. Let's try to answer that. > what do you trade it for? Perhaps if companies had to deal with a load of complaints, losing cash at each one, they might start to care? I can tell you that companies hate being embarrassed in public so complain loudly. But otherwise, on another hn thread a while ago some guy said he'd bought, or would buy, a dumb monitor and link that up. There's 2 solutions (if the latter works). Don't complain they don't solve everything instantly, they won't. > Will your complaining and nagging on review sites going to make this a reality? You'll never know if you don't try. > This is what makes GP feel powerless. I know the feeling! But I keep fighting back and I get results. Read that as you will. Many of you US guys died to separate yourselves from the rule of us brits. Now for domestic goods you can't be bothered to rage. Doesn't seem right... Like your post though!
krageon 6y ago
The way you address it is unfortunate, but I think you make a salient point about the learned helplessness of a lot of people. That's what's moving companies to do ever more evil things, they're not some unstoppable force - they're just being enabled.
- throwaway_pdp09 6y ago
  Thank you. And you're surely right about the way I say it - I just don't know how to put it more politely. Tips welcome on how I might not be a git! (seriously). It is learned helplessness, or "I can't be bothered so it must be not worth trying because I'll fail anyway". I can get stuff done but I fear the worst for humanity if it just does what's easiest. And I don't mean about TVs, I mean about the future of our species and the planet.

Silhouette 6y ago

This is a much bigger issue than just TVs. And you seem to have ignored my entire final paragraph, which was about what I think we need to do to improve the situation. I am doing my part; I contact my representatives to draw tech issues to their attention, for example, and I donate to various relevant campaign groups. But I am only one person, and it will take more than just me and a few people like me to effect change on the required scale.

throwaway_pdp09 6y ago
> This is a much bigger issue than just TVs. You start somewhere > And you seem to have ignored my entire final paragraph which culminated in >> sadly, it seems a lot of people either don't care enough to do that instead of moaning on Twitter of Facebook and then accepting their fate. which is you accepting your fate, it seems. You suggested nothing useful, only moaned that others couldn't be bothered. In summary you built up a case of hopelessness and accused others of it. How come I often get results when I bug manufacturers? Your apathy superpower is painful to see. Thank you but that's quite enough, I prefer to get results instead.
- whatisthiseven 6y ago
  How do you get results, and what kind of results have you got from bugging manufacturers? Genuinely curious.
  - throwaway_pdp09 6y ago
    Hard to make a list, and it's more general than just products, but taking a company to court after it screwed me over (I won which started a stream of other complainants against them once they saw it was possible), opening a machine I'd bought and finding it messed up inside and taking that back to the shop in person and telling them I wasn't going away until they fixed it (self-entitled boss was angry but they did), getting a misbehaving server from rackspace and despite their stonewalling got enough info to prove it defective so they finally replaced it (my boss was willing to live with clear performance problems out of apathy; I wasn't). There's more, some involving products rather than services but can't dig them up ATM. Helpful? Key is persistence.
- rglullis 6y ago
  You are getting "results" in a Sisyphean task. The one you are responding to is talking about the larger issue. Sure, do exercise your right as a consumer and do more than just complaining. If I ever bought something that started performing this badly I would return it as well. Problem is, what do you trade it for? I'd like to find a 50" TV with no smart TV features. Will your complaining and nagging on review sites going to make this a reality? As long as we keep accepting only the choices provided by the status quo all you are getting is a slightly more comfortable golden cage. This is what makes GP feel powerless.
  - throwaway_pdp09 6y ago
    Sisyphus didn't get results, that was the point of his fate. I get results. OK, nitpick over, I have trouble disagreeing with you. Let's try to answer that. > what do you trade it for? Perhaps if companies had to deal with a load of complaints, losing cash at each one, they might start to care? I can tell you that companies hate being embarrassed in public so complain loudly. But otherwise, on another hn thread a while ago some guy said he'd bought, or would buy, a dumb monitor and link that up. There's 2 solutions (if the latter works). Don't complain they don't solve everything instantly, they won't. > Will your complaining and nagging on review sites going to make this a reality? You'll never know if you don't try. > This is what makes GP feel powerless. I know the feeling! But I keep fighting back and I get results. Read that as you will. Many of you US guys died to separate yourselves from the rule of us brits. Now for domestic goods you can't be bothered to rage. Doesn't seem right... Like your post though!

krageon 6y ago

The way you address it is unfortunate, but I think you make a salient point about the learned helplessness of a lot of people. That's what's moving companies to do ever more evil things, they're not some unstoppable force - they're just being enabled.

throwaway_pdp09 6y ago
Thank you. And you're surely right about the way I say it - I just don't know how to put it more politely. Tips welcome on how I might not be a git! (seriously). It is learned helplessness, or "I can't be bothered so it must be not worth trying because I'll fail anyway". I can get stuff done but I fear the worst for humanity if it just does what's easiest. And I don't mean about TVs, I mean about the future of our species and the planet.