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Unfortunately, even if you have a right to send something back, it's not always practical. Typically those consumer rights only protect individuals, leaving bu

Unfortunately, even if you have a right to send something back, it's not always practical. Typically those consumer rights only protect individuals, leaving businesses (even small ones, who are at a similar disadvantage to consumers in not being able to negotiate anything with huge manufacturers/suppliers) with little if any protection. One key difference from days gone by is that modern devices often contain large amounts of private data, which you might not be willing to hand over. And it's all rather academic anyway if competition in that market has failed and all the major products are doing to same user-hostile things. This is normally the point where government intervention would be required, for example through legislation or regulatory action, but governments have been unwilling or unable to keep up with the pace of technological advancement. I believe this is, at least in part, because representatives usually aren't technical experts and so may not understand the implications of modern technologies or the potential alternatives to current practice. I have reached the conclusion that until we educate those representatives and show them that people do care about these issues, the tide of increasingly user-hostile actions will only continue to rise. But of course that means people have to care enough themselves to get involved in contacting their reps or at least supporting organised campaigns, and sadly, it seems a lot of people either don't care enough to do that instead of moaning on Twitter of Facebook and then accepting their fate.

throwaway_pdp09 6y ago
> it's not always practical Any reason why not here? > consumer rights only protect individuals he's an individual. It was not apparently a business expense > with little if any protection If you're in the EU you've got protection. > that modern devices often contain large amounts of private data It's a TV so in this case so what (in general, perhaps, but don't most devices have encryption?) > And it's all rather academic anyway if competition in that market has failed and all the major products are doing to same user-hostile things And you're rolling over hopelessly as if you can't do anything. Fair enough, you get (nothing) what you give (nothing). > because representatives usually aren't technical experts and so may not understand the implications of modern technologies or the potential alternatives to current practice IT'S A TV! WITH CRAPPY UI RESPONSE! Stop making excuses for bad practice. Do something. > the tide of increasingly user-hostile actions will only continue to rise OK, let's stop here. I complain when necessary & shit gets fixed quite often. You clearly can't be bothered to fight back so you're rationalising that it's not worth it. I'm not wasting time on this.
- Silhouette 6y ago
  This is a much bigger issue than just TVs. And you seem to have ignored my entire final paragraph, which was about what I think we need to do to improve the situation. I am doing my part; I contact my representatives to draw tech issues to their attention, for example, and I donate to various relevant campaign groups. But I am only one person, and it will take more than just me and a few people like me to effect change on the required scale.
  - throwaway_pdp09 6y ago
    > This is a much bigger issue than just TVs. You start somewhere > And you seem to have ignored my entire final paragraph which culminated in >> sadly, it seems a lot of people either don't care enough to do that instead of moaning on Twitter of Facebook and then accepting their fate. which is you accepting your fate, it seems. You suggested nothing useful, only moaned that others couldn't be bothered. In summary you built up a case of hopelessness and accused others of it. How come I often get results when I bug manufacturers? Your apathy superpower is painful to see. Thank you but that's quite enough, I prefer to get results instead.
    - whatisthiseven 6y ago
      How do you get results, and what kind of results have you got from bugging manufacturers? Genuinely curious.
      - throwaway_pdp09 6y ago
        Hard to make a list, and it's more general than just products, but taking a company to court after it screwed me over (I won which started a stream of other complainants against them once they saw it was possible), opening a machine I'd bought and finding it messed up inside and taking that back to the shop in person and telling them I wasn't going away until they fixed it (self-entitled boss was angry but they did), getting a misbehaving server from rackspace and despite their stonewalling got enough info to prove it defective so they finally replaced it (my boss was willing to live with clear performance problems out of apathy; I wasn't). There's more, some involving products rather than services but can't dig them up ATM. Helpful? Key is persistence.

throwaway_pdp09 6y ago

> it's not always practical Any reason why not here? > consumer rights only protect individuals he's an individual. It was not apparently a business expense > with little if any protection If you're in the EU you've got protection. > that modern devices often contain large amounts of private data It's a TV so in this case so what (in general, perhaps, but don't most devices have encryption?) > And it's all rather academic anyway if competition in that market has failed and all the major products are doing to same user-hostile things And you're rolling over hopelessly as if you can't do anything. Fair enough, you get (nothing) what you give (nothing). > because representatives usually aren't technical experts and so may not understand the implications of modern technologies or the potential alternatives to current practice IT'S A TV! WITH CRAPPY UI RESPONSE! Stop making excuses for bad practice. Do something. > the tide of increasingly user-hostile actions will only continue to rise OK, let's stop here. I complain when necessary & shit gets fixed quite often. You clearly can't be bothered to fight back so you're rationalising that it's not worth it. I'm not wasting time on this.

Silhouette 6y ago
This is a much bigger issue than just TVs. And you seem to have ignored my entire final paragraph, which was about what I think we need to do to improve the situation. I am doing my part; I contact my representatives to draw tech issues to their attention, for example, and I donate to various relevant campaign groups. But I am only one person, and it will take more than just me and a few people like me to effect change on the required scale.
- throwaway_pdp09 6y ago
  > This is a much bigger issue than just TVs. You start somewhere > And you seem to have ignored my entire final paragraph which culminated in >> sadly, it seems a lot of people either don't care enough to do that instead of moaning on Twitter of Facebook and then accepting their fate. which is you accepting your fate, it seems. You suggested nothing useful, only moaned that others couldn't be bothered. In summary you built up a case of hopelessness and accused others of it. How come I often get results when I bug manufacturers? Your apathy superpower is painful to see. Thank you but that's quite enough, I prefer to get results instead.
  - whatisthiseven 6y ago
    How do you get results, and what kind of results have you got from bugging manufacturers? Genuinely curious.
    - throwaway_pdp09 6y ago
      Hard to make a list, and it's more general than just products, but taking a company to court after it screwed me over (I won which started a stream of other complainants against them once they saw it was possible), opening a machine I'd bought and finding it messed up inside and taking that back to the shop in person and telling them I wasn't going away until they fixed it (self-entitled boss was angry but they did), getting a misbehaving server from rackspace and despite their stonewalling got enough info to prove it defective so they finally replaced it (my boss was willing to live with clear performance problems out of apathy; I wasn't). There's more, some involving products rather than services but can't dig them up ATM. Helpful? Key is persistence.