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If you're in the EU you should have a right to send it back. Failing that, if you have a blog, publicise that so others get put off buying that brand. Complain

If you're in the EU you should have a right to send it back. Failing that, if you have a blog, publicise that so others get put off buying that brand. Complain to them (edit: sony) directly also. Don't just sit there are take it, it's what they're relying on.

rglullis 6y ago
Does it really matter? If not one brand, you get screwed by another. What we need is a push for free software in consumer electronics. Get any major manufacturer to realize that they can not differentiate on software and stick to making good hardware. The sooner they accept that Google is eating their lunch on the value-add anyway and that the best way to counter them is by commoditizing the software stack. Were I an executive of LG or Samsung, I would just make sure that any TV could boot a custom OS and I would get it shipped with Kodi. Get whatever resources on R&D you want to keep and make sure they work on top of Kodi. Show a big fat finger to Android and let Google being forced to make their own TVs if they really want the market.
- Silhouette 6y ago
  With TVs specifically, this could be a tough sell for manufacturers, because of all the hardware-enabled rights protection that is needed to watch content in certain formats now. There will be some level of exclusive access/control involved as long as those schemes are operating, and that gives them power.
  - rglullis 6y ago
    Sorry, I am failing to understand you. "Gives them power", who?
Silhouette 6y ago
Unfortunately, even if you have a right to send something back, it's not always practical. Typically those consumer rights only protect individuals, leaving businesses (even small ones, who are at a similar disadvantage to consumers in not being able to negotiate anything with huge manufacturers/suppliers) with little if any protection. One key difference from days gone by is that modern devices often contain large amounts of private data, which you might not be willing to hand over. And it's all rather academic anyway if competition in that market has failed and all the major products are doing to same user-hostile things. This is normally the point where government intervention would be required, for example through legislation or regulatory action, but governments have been unwilling or unable to keep up with the pace of technological advancement. I believe this is, at least in part, because representatives usually aren't technical experts and so may not understand the implications of modern technologies or the potential alternatives to current practice. I have reached the conclusion that until we educate those representatives and show them that people do care about these issues, the tide of increasingly user-hostile actions will only continue to rise. But of course that means people have to care enough themselves to get involved in contacting their reps or at least supporting organised campaigns, and sadly, it seems a lot of people either don't care enough to do that instead of moaning on Twitter of Facebook and then accepting their fate.
- throwaway_pdp09 6y ago
  > it's not always practical Any reason why not here? > consumer rights only protect individuals he's an individual. It was not apparently a business expense > with little if any protection If you're in the EU you've got protection. > that modern devices often contain large amounts of private data It's a TV so in this case so what (in general, perhaps, but don't most devices have encryption?) > And it's all rather academic anyway if competition in that market has failed and all the major products are doing to same user-hostile things And you're rolling over hopelessly as if you can't do anything. Fair enough, you get (nothing) what you give (nothing). > because representatives usually aren't technical experts and so may not understand the implications of modern technologies or the potential alternatives to current practice IT'S A TV! WITH CRAPPY UI RESPONSE! Stop making excuses for bad practice. Do something. > the tide of increasingly user-hostile actions will only continue to rise OK, let's stop here. I complain when necessary & shit gets fixed quite often. You clearly can't be bothered to fight back so you're rationalising that it's not worth it. I'm not wasting time on this.
  - Silhouette 6y ago
    This is a much bigger issue than just TVs. And you seem to have ignored my entire final paragraph, which was about what I think we need to do to improve the situation. I am doing my part; I contact my representatives to draw tech issues to their attention, for example, and I donate to various relevant campaign groups. But I am only one person, and it will take more than just me and a few people like me to effect change on the required scale.
    - throwaway_pdp09 6y ago
      > This is a much bigger issue than just TVs. You start somewhere > And you seem to have ignored my entire final paragraph which culminated in >> sadly, it seems a lot of people either don't care enough to do that instead of moaning on Twitter of Facebook and then accepting their fate. which is you accepting your fate, it seems. You suggested nothing useful, only moaned that others couldn't be bothered. In summary you built up a case of hopelessness and accused others of it. How come I often get results when I bug manufacturers? Your apathy superpower is painful to see. Thank you but that's quite enough, I prefer to get results instead.
jiggawatts 6y ago
I've noticed that public feedback of this sort doesn't cross cultural boundaries. YC News and Reddit are perfect examples. You'll regularly see NetFlix, Google, Microsoft, and Amazon staff directly responding to customer complaints on these forums. In the past, Slashdot would similarly have people in the industry commenting. These are all US-based and predominately English-speaking organisations responding on a US-based news site in English. Sony is headquartered in Japan. Their TV division is in Japan. They speak Japanese. They don't frequent YC News or Reddit. They don't read English-language tweets or blogs. Similarly, it's borderline impossible to provide constructive feedback to laptop companies, because most are either headquartered in Taiwan, or constrained by the capabilities of manufacturers in Taiwan.

rglullis 6y ago

Does it really matter? If not one brand, you get screwed by another. What we need is a push for free software in consumer electronics. Get any major manufacturer to realize that they can not differentiate on software and stick to making good hardware. The sooner they accept that Google is eating their lunch on the value-add anyway and that the best way to counter them is by commoditizing the software stack. Were I an executive of LG or Samsung, I would just make sure that any TV could boot a custom OS and I would get it shipped with Kodi. Get whatever resources on R&D you want to keep and make sure they work on top of Kodi. Show a big fat finger to Android and let Google being forced to make their own TVs if they really want the market.

Silhouette 6y ago
With TVs specifically, this could be a tough sell for manufacturers, because of all the hardware-enabled rights protection that is needed to watch content in certain formats now. There will be some level of exclusive access/control involved as long as those schemes are operating, and that gives them power.
- rglullis 6y ago
  Sorry, I am failing to understand you. "Gives them power", who?

Silhouette 6y ago

Unfortunately, even if you have a right to send something back, it's not always practical. Typically those consumer rights only protect individuals, leaving businesses (even small ones, who are at a similar disadvantage to consumers in not being able to negotiate anything with huge manufacturers/suppliers) with little if any protection. One key difference from days gone by is that modern devices often contain large amounts of private data, which you might not be willing to hand over. And it's all rather academic anyway if competition in that market has failed and all the major products are doing to same user-hostile things. This is normally the point where government intervention would be required, for example through legislation or regulatory action, but governments have been unwilling or unable to keep up with the pace of technological advancement. I believe this is, at least in part, because representatives usually aren't technical experts and so may not understand the implications of modern technologies or the potential alternatives to current practice. I have reached the conclusion that until we educate those representatives and show them that people do care about these issues, the tide of increasingly user-hostile actions will only continue to rise. But of course that means people have to care enough themselves to get involved in contacting their reps or at least supporting organised campaigns, and sadly, it seems a lot of people either don't care enough to do that instead of moaning on Twitter of Facebook and then accepting their fate.

throwaway_pdp09 6y ago
> it's not always practical Any reason why not here? > consumer rights only protect individuals he's an individual. It was not apparently a business expense > with little if any protection If you're in the EU you've got protection. > that modern devices often contain large amounts of private data It's a TV so in this case so what (in general, perhaps, but don't most devices have encryption?) > And it's all rather academic anyway if competition in that market has failed and all the major products are doing to same user-hostile things And you're rolling over hopelessly as if you can't do anything. Fair enough, you get (nothing) what you give (nothing). > because representatives usually aren't technical experts and so may not understand the implications of modern technologies or the potential alternatives to current practice IT'S A TV! WITH CRAPPY UI RESPONSE! Stop making excuses for bad practice. Do something. > the tide of increasingly user-hostile actions will only continue to rise OK, let's stop here. I complain when necessary & shit gets fixed quite often. You clearly can't be bothered to fight back so you're rationalising that it's not worth it. I'm not wasting time on this.
- Silhouette 6y ago
  This is a much bigger issue than just TVs. And you seem to have ignored my entire final paragraph, which was about what I think we need to do to improve the situation. I am doing my part; I contact my representatives to draw tech issues to their attention, for example, and I donate to various relevant campaign groups. But I am only one person, and it will take more than just me and a few people like me to effect change on the required scale.
  - throwaway_pdp09 6y ago
    > This is a much bigger issue than just TVs. You start somewhere > And you seem to have ignored my entire final paragraph which culminated in >> sadly, it seems a lot of people either don't care enough to do that instead of moaning on Twitter of Facebook and then accepting their fate. which is you accepting your fate, it seems. You suggested nothing useful, only moaned that others couldn't be bothered. In summary you built up a case of hopelessness and accused others of it. How come I often get results when I bug manufacturers? Your apathy superpower is painful to see. Thank you but that's quite enough, I prefer to get results instead.

jiggawatts 6y ago

I've noticed that public feedback of this sort doesn't cross cultural boundaries. YC News and Reddit are perfect examples. You'll regularly see NetFlix, Google, Microsoft, and Amazon staff directly responding to customer complaints on these forums. In the past, Slashdot would similarly have people in the industry commenting. These are all US-based and predominately English-speaking organisations responding on a US-based news site in English. Sony is headquartered in Japan. Their TV division is in Japan. They speak Japanese. They don't frequent YC News or Reddit. They don't read English-language tweets or blogs. Similarly, it's borderline impossible to provide constructive feedback to laptop companies, because most are either headquartered in Taiwan, or constrained by the capabilities of manufacturers in Taiwan.