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It really depends on the context and the use cases. The F-15 cockpit is an extreme example of a very complex interface that needs to be highly performant under

It really depends on the context and the use cases. The F-15 cockpit is an extreme example of a very complex interface that needs to be highly performant under intense life-or-death conditions. Most UIs that people design, including this library, are not meant for anything remotely similar to those situations. A lot of times it's mostly for consuming content. That video of the F-15 actually features a lot of overlay UI elements that are very similar to this project's sci-fi style. Did you lament that, or wonder if that functional uselessness was influencing the designers of the airplane? Or did it make for a better viewing experience than barebones labels with no animations? I can't speak to the SpaceX cockpit and how well it performs the job it was intended to, do you know of any testimony from people who have used it? I have to believe that they would put function over form for something like that, but that doesn't mean that form has no place either, they are definitely aiming for the lofty goal of achieving both.

gcpwnd 6y ago
The most enjoyable interfaces in games are often simple, functional and still match the theme. Yet many games go over the top with fancy artwork and god forbid time stealing animations. There is definitely a point in trying to stick to the setting with the UI, but it is a thin line.
neilpanchal 6y ago
Not sure, but it is hard to deny that Elon's personal taste in building everything "sexy" has something to do with it. I think you're delving into the details and you're making valid points, I am mostly talking about the philosophy and approach in an abstract sense. It's fine to use this library. Otherwise, the world would be a totally unremarkable place. If you consider the central point I was trying to make, to re-emphasize is that I wonder how much of influence do things like sci-fi aesthetics makes in designing serious products [1][2] (I suspect that it is widespread). [1] https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61cGhQ0begL._SL1024_.jpg https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61cGhQ0begL... [2] https://miro.medium.com/max/800/1*eW4danopMOoMxEr5GBRZOA.png https://miro.medium.com/max/800/1*eW4danopMOoMxEr5GBRZOA.png
- resu_nimda 6y ago
  I think it’s a somewhat orthogonal issue. I think you can approach the design of a serious interface with the F-15 philosophy while also incorporating aesthetic sensibilities. Yes, some people may end up designing serious interfaces that suffer from too much unnecessary chrome (I’ve heard of a lot of frustration with touchscreens in cars). But I don’t think there is anything inherently wrong with sci-fi aesthetics influencing interface design. What arguments can actually be made against the functional effectiveness of that oscilloscope or the SpaceX cockpit?
  - neilpanchal 6y ago
    The question is the other way around, the onus is on the designer that wants to add unnecessary decorations: What arguments can be made to support adding of unnecessary decorations? I really like HN design philosophy articulated by @dang here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23199062 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23199062 Quoting: > Move slowly and preserve things Everything should be questioned ruthlessly and UI is not like fashion that needs to keep up with trends. Although, if we are designing a website for a music band, all bets are off :)
    - davidivadavid 6y ago
      There's no such thing as "unnecessary" in an absolute sense. The question is "unnnecessary" to who. "Unnecessary" decorations are necessary if you want something to stand out. If you don't want your house to look like your neighbor's, you're going to make "unnecessary" changes to it. Paint rooms different colors. Use different furniture. All unnecessary changes... if you don't care about them. You seem to adopt the somewhat naive functionalist/minimalist philosophy that you can find in early modernist thought (e.g. Loos in "Ornament and Crime" [0]). What those thinkers missed is that beauty and aesthetics are a function too. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ornament_and_Crime https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ornament_and_Crime
    - resu_nimda 6y ago
      What arguments can be made to support adding of unnecessary decorations? Because without them, the world would be a totally unremarkable place. :) I think there is a lot of value to the images of SpaceX astronauts in their sleek suits, and the general flair with which they go about things. It inspires and excites people, it sparks joy. I get what you're saying though and I also appreciate the functional minimalist design of places like HN and Craigslist (I much preferred the original purely text GameFAQs forums vs. alternatives at the time that had a lot of crazy stuff going on). I'm not saying at all that form should step on function in serious UIs but I do think both are important and aesthetics should not be dismissed or lamented.
rkagerer 6y ago
As a user, I want all my UI's to be just as elegant, purpose-driven and performant as whatever best of breed example you can think of (perhaps to the point where, like the controls of a cockpit, they feel like a natural extension of my body). Imagine if all Palm or Apple had strived for was "good enough".
jakear 6y ago
Tesla’s have a touchscreen instead of analog controls, recently there was a case where a driver attempting to use the touchscreen wiper rate changer got in a collision and was deemed negligent. Based on them taking arguably the single most important toggle in a car [1] and hiding it behind a touchscreen so that when you already are in shitty conditions and you can’t see, you have to take your entire focus off the road and navigate a touch screen interface, compared to every other car on the market where you can do it subconsciously while keeping your hands on the wheel... let’s just say I don’t think Elon’s companies care particularly much about creating interfaces that are easy and safe to use if it means sacrificing “aesthetic“. https://www.businessinsider.in/thelife/news/german-court-ruled-teslas-touchscreen-windshield-wiper-controls-are-the-same-as-texting-while-driving/articleshow/77402109.cms https://www.businessinsider.in/thelife/news/german-court-rul... [1] wipers and headlights are the 2 “I’m driving a massive hunk of steel at 80mph down the highway and I can’t see shit I need to fix this immediately” controls, and wipers are more likely to be needed at the spur of a moment, so I’d say it is the single most important toggle in a car and replacing it with navigating a touchscreen seems like it ought to be grounds for not street-certifying a car.
- ex3ndr 6y ago
  Tesla has very convenient wiper hardware button.
  - jakear 6y ago
    My understanding is that the button toggles enablement of the sensor-driven wiper mode. If this is correct, it means every Tesla driver is betting their life and the lives of those around them that for every instance of something on the windshield blocking their view, either the sensor will accurately respond to it, or they will be able to navigate the touchscreen to activate the manual override before needing to react to developing conditions on the road. Given the reliability of automotive grade sensors (I’m not the only one who has paid mechanics a lot of money to tell me the sensor was bad right?) and the difficulty of interacting with touch screens, that’s not a bet I’d be willing to take. Looking at the German case, I wish more people were unwilling to take that bet.
jjcm 6y ago
"Most UIs that people design, including this library, are not meant for anything remotely similar to those situations." You would think that, but that isn't necessarily the case. I worked for a Naval intelligence contractor back in 2007, and I was surprised at the amount of times there were requests at the top to "make it look cooler". War rooms at the time tended to look exactly like the Hollywood depictions. Not because Hollywood got it right, but because generals saw the movies and said, "I want one that looks like that". Even in the most functional of situations, flashy looks sell hearts.
- CarbyAu 6y ago
  Like this? https://www.theverge.com/2017/9/19/16333376/us-navy-military-xbox-360-controller https://www.theverge.com/2017/9/19/16333376/us-navy-military...
- UncleSlacky 6y ago
  There was a "behind the scenes" style documentary about QinetiQ and/or DERA (it was around the time DERA was split into QinetiQ and DSTL) where the engineers were shown analysing the 3D displays from the "Aliens" dropship sequence for inspiration.
- ckozlowski 6y ago
  Without getting into specifics, this is absolutely the case. There was one instance where, when the new ops center opened, getting the tour of it was the thing everyone wanted. The brass thankfully obliged. Over a period of weeks, small groups got to go over and the new center, with it's large blue display edge lighting, and electronically frosting glass. I'll never forget this bemused airman, pressing a button while a circle of us stood around in a half circle, giving a very Simpsons-esq "Oooooooooohh!" as the glass went transparent to opaque, and transparent again. Was it necessary? Absolutely not. Was it cool? Hell yeah it was. =D
- resu_nimda 6y ago
  It wasn't my intent to say that people designing serious systems don't like flashy things. More just that a lot of UI designers and projects posted on HN are focused on lower-stakes applications that can accommodate more artistic license. But, my question is, did that actually make the war rooms less functional? In what ways did Hollywood get it wrong that they copied? Even a war room is a very different application than literally flying a fighter jet, which is arguably the most intense and demanding control experience in existence.

gcpwnd 6y ago

The most enjoyable interfaces in games are often simple, functional and still match the theme. Yet many games go over the top with fancy artwork and god forbid time stealing animations. There is definitely a point in trying to stick to the setting with the UI, but it is a thin line.

neilpanchal 6y ago

Not sure, but it is hard to deny that Elon's personal taste in building everything "sexy" has something to do with it. I think you're delving into the details and you're making valid points, I am mostly talking about the philosophy and approach in an abstract sense. It's fine to use this library. Otherwise, the world would be a totally unremarkable place. If you consider the central point I was trying to make, to re-emphasize is that I wonder how much of influence do things like sci-fi aesthetics makes in designing serious products [1][2] (I suspect that it is widespread). [1] https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61cGhQ0begL._SL1024_.jpg https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61cGhQ0begL... [2] https://miro.medium.com/max/800/1*eW4danopMOoMxEr5GBRZOA.png https://miro.medium.com/max/800/1*eW4danopMOoMxEr5GBRZOA.png

resu_nimda 6y ago
I think it’s a somewhat orthogonal issue. I think you can approach the design of a serious interface with the F-15 philosophy while also incorporating aesthetic sensibilities. Yes, some people may end up designing serious interfaces that suffer from too much unnecessary chrome (I’ve heard of a lot of frustration with touchscreens in cars). But I don’t think there is anything inherently wrong with sci-fi aesthetics influencing interface design. What arguments can actually be made against the functional effectiveness of that oscilloscope or the SpaceX cockpit?
- neilpanchal 6y ago
  The question is the other way around, the onus is on the designer that wants to add unnecessary decorations: What arguments can be made to support adding of unnecessary decorations? I really like HN design philosophy articulated by @dang here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23199062 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23199062 Quoting: > Move slowly and preserve things Everything should be questioned ruthlessly and UI is not like fashion that needs to keep up with trends. Although, if we are designing a website for a music band, all bets are off :)
  - davidivadavid 6y ago
    There's no such thing as "unnecessary" in an absolute sense. The question is "unnnecessary" to who. "Unnecessary" decorations are necessary if you want something to stand out. If you don't want your house to look like your neighbor's, you're going to make "unnecessary" changes to it. Paint rooms different colors. Use different furniture. All unnecessary changes... if you don't care about them. You seem to adopt the somewhat naive functionalist/minimalist philosophy that you can find in early modernist thought (e.g. Loos in "Ornament and Crime" [0]). What those thinkers missed is that beauty and aesthetics are a function too. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ornament_and_Crime https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ornament_and_Crime
  - resu_nimda 6y ago
    What arguments can be made to support adding of unnecessary decorations? Because without them, the world would be a totally unremarkable place. :) I think there is a lot of value to the images of SpaceX astronauts in their sleek suits, and the general flair with which they go about things. It inspires and excites people, it sparks joy. I get what you're saying though and I also appreciate the functional minimalist design of places like HN and Craigslist (I much preferred the original purely text GameFAQs forums vs. alternatives at the time that had a lot of crazy stuff going on). I'm not saying at all that form should step on function in serious UIs but I do think both are important and aesthetics should not be dismissed or lamented.

rkagerer 6y ago

As a user, I want all my UI's to be just as elegant, purpose-driven and performant as whatever best of breed example you can think of (perhaps to the point where, like the controls of a cockpit, they feel like a natural extension of my body). Imagine if all Palm or Apple had strived for was "good enough".

jakear 6y ago

Tesla’s have a touchscreen instead of analog controls, recently there was a case where a driver attempting to use the touchscreen wiper rate changer got in a collision and was deemed negligent. Based on them taking arguably the single most important toggle in a car [1] and hiding it behind a touchscreen so that when you already are in shitty conditions and you can’t see, you have to take your entire focus off the road and navigate a touch screen interface, compared to every other car on the market where you can do it subconsciously while keeping your hands on the wheel... let’s just say I don’t think Elon’s companies care particularly much about creating interfaces that are easy and safe to use if it means sacrificing “aesthetic“. https://www.businessinsider.in/thelife/news/german-court-ruled-teslas-touchscreen-windshield-wiper-controls-are-the-same-as-texting-while-driving/articleshow/77402109.cms https://www.businessinsider.in/thelife/news/german-court-rul... [1] wipers and headlights are the 2 “I’m driving a massive hunk of steel at 80mph down the highway and I can’t see shit I need to fix this immediately” controls, and wipers are more likely to be needed at the spur of a moment, so I’d say it is the single most important toggle in a car and replacing it with navigating a touchscreen seems like it ought to be grounds for not street-certifying a car.

ex3ndr 6y ago
Tesla has very convenient wiper hardware button.
- jakear 6y ago
  My understanding is that the button toggles enablement of the sensor-driven wiper mode. If this is correct, it means every Tesla driver is betting their life and the lives of those around them that for every instance of something on the windshield blocking their view, either the sensor will accurately respond to it, or they will be able to navigate the touchscreen to activate the manual override before needing to react to developing conditions on the road. Given the reliability of automotive grade sensors (I’m not the only one who has paid mechanics a lot of money to tell me the sensor was bad right?) and the difficulty of interacting with touch screens, that’s not a bet I’d be willing to take. Looking at the German case, I wish more people were unwilling to take that bet.

jjcm 6y ago

"Most UIs that people design, including this library, are not meant for anything remotely similar to those situations." You would think that, but that isn't necessarily the case. I worked for a Naval intelligence contractor back in 2007, and I was surprised at the amount of times there were requests at the top to "make it look cooler". War rooms at the time tended to look exactly like the Hollywood depictions. Not because Hollywood got it right, but because generals saw the movies and said, "I want one that looks like that". Even in the most functional of situations, flashy looks sell hearts.

CarbyAu 6y ago
Like this? https://www.theverge.com/2017/9/19/16333376/us-navy-military-xbox-360-controller https://www.theverge.com/2017/9/19/16333376/us-navy-military...
UncleSlacky 6y ago
There was a "behind the scenes" style documentary about QinetiQ and/or DERA (it was around the time DERA was split into QinetiQ and DSTL) where the engineers were shown analysing the 3D displays from the "Aliens" dropship sequence for inspiration.
ckozlowski 6y ago
Without getting into specifics, this is absolutely the case. There was one instance where, when the new ops center opened, getting the tour of it was the thing everyone wanted. The brass thankfully obliged. Over a period of weeks, small groups got to go over and the new center, with it's large blue display edge lighting, and electronically frosting glass. I'll never forget this bemused airman, pressing a button while a circle of us stood around in a half circle, giving a very Simpsons-esq "Oooooooooohh!" as the glass went transparent to opaque, and transparent again. Was it necessary? Absolutely not. Was it cool? Hell yeah it was. =D
resu_nimda 6y ago
It wasn't my intent to say that people designing serious systems don't like flashy things. More just that a lot of UI designers and projects posted on HN are focused on lower-stakes applications that can accommodate more artistic license. But, my question is, did that actually make the war rooms less functional? In what ways did Hollywood get it wrong that they copied? Even a war room is a very different application than literally flying a fighter jet, which is arguably the most intense and demanding control experience in existence.