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Is this actually true when taking into consideration the current production process of EVs? Certainly operationally EVs are less polluting, but I'm not sure whe

Is this actually true when taking into consideration the current production process of EVs? Certainly operationally EVs are less polluting, but I'm not sure where things are at considering the entire pipeline. (I'm not intending to bash EVs at all here, I have a PHEV myself and I'd love to get a BEV when the range/cost suits my needs.)

intotheabyss 6y ago
Just from an efficiency POV alone, EVs are better. With ICE you're wasting >50% of the energy to heat, whereas with EVs, that's closer to 10-20%.
- Judgmentality 6y ago
  I believe GP is asking about manufacturing and production, not operation.
- michaelmior 6y ago
  Right, but I'm saying I've heard some claim that the environmental impact of efficiency gains are largely offset by the waste produced in the production and disposal of EVs and batteries. I haven't seen a great analysis supporting or refuting this claim. However, I also think that if true, perhaps this is part of the "growing pains" of the EV market. Certainly as the scale of the market grows, we can expect more efficient manufacturing processes and longer lasting technology.
- SigmundA 6y ago
  Not exactly comparable, if the electricity comes from burning fuel then those losses are at the power plant + transmission losses + losses in the car and drivetrain. power plants are generally more efficient than small combustion engines but all other things in chain must apply. Mix in nuclear and solar and things change of course. However comparing the efficiency of the controller / motor to engine / transmission is apple to oranges, the battery / controller / motor in a EV is just the last part of a long transmission stretching from the engine in the power plant: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_long_tailpipe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_long_tailpipe
  - imtringued 6y ago
    EV owners can just get a green electricity plan.
  - speedgoose 6y ago
    Yes it's difficult to compare. Many people like to take into account the efficiency of the electricity production when talking about EV, which is an important thing to do, but forget that gaz does not appear magically in a gaz tank. The efficiency of having gaz in a gaz tank is shit. I don't have the numbers because I'm lazy, but I remember reading that it takes more energy to bring one liter of gaz in a car tank, if you consider the full chain, than the energy required to drive a EV on the same distance. So even before you start to turn on the cars, an EV has used less energy.
agumonkey 6y ago
I don't have all the numbers but I assume it's already a clear yes. Lithium batteries are already highly recycled in some areas. Cobalt is on the way out. What else is left ? coolant ? motor is basically 99% metals.
floatrock 6y ago
Yes, and it has been true since even 2015: https://www.ucsusa.org/sites/default/files/attach/2015/11/Cleaner-Cars-from-Cradle-to-Grave-full-report.pdf https://www.ucsusa.org/sites/default/files/attach/2015/11/Cl... There are embedded emissions in manufacturing, and yes, embedded emissions are higher for EV's because of battery manufacturing complexity. But, most of a car's lifetime emissions are in the operation, not the manufacturing. And that's where EV's shine. Plus, this has only been getting more true as the grid has been getting greener -- in the last two years, most new generating capacity that has come online has been renewable.
gruturo 6y ago
Many people seem very keen on looking at the entire pipeline of EV, including mining the lithium and any other material, purifying the brine, etc, and also accounting how electricity is produced, making worst case assumption and so on. Which is a clearly acceptable viewpoint, to which I subscribe. A few of those people, though, do not look at the ICE pipeline nearly as closely, and promptly forget how oil is extracted, refined and transported around the world. The comparison should be fair. Spoiler alert: Oil doesn't end up looking so nice.
- dylan604 6y ago
  When's the last time a tanker of battery components spilled their contents into the water causing massive damage to the ecosystem?
jordanbeiber 6y ago
Mauritius wants a word with you. :) And there’s been a movie made on this little BP incident: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deepwater_Horizon_oil_spill https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deepwater_Horizon_oil_spill Thats just two out of many. Honestly, IMO, the “entire pipeline” puts EV so far ahead it’s ridiculous. Without talking about what the ICE exhaust pollution is doing to the bodies and brains of people in dense urban environments.
kemiller 6y ago
Longevity of the finished product and/or reusability of components should be taken into account as well. We haven't really had them long enough to know this for sure, but signs are that EVs have a longer service life, which means their embodied energy is amortized over more time.

intotheabyss 6y ago

Just from an efficiency POV alone, EVs are better. With ICE you're wasting >50% of the energy to heat, whereas with EVs, that's closer to 10-20%.

Judgmentality 6y ago
I believe GP is asking about manufacturing and production, not operation.
michaelmior 6y ago
Right, but I'm saying I've heard some claim that the environmental impact of efficiency gains are largely offset by the waste produced in the production and disposal of EVs and batteries. I haven't seen a great analysis supporting or refuting this claim. However, I also think that if true, perhaps this is part of the "growing pains" of the EV market. Certainly as the scale of the market grows, we can expect more efficient manufacturing processes and longer lasting technology.
SigmundA 6y ago
Not exactly comparable, if the electricity comes from burning fuel then those losses are at the power plant + transmission losses + losses in the car and drivetrain. power plants are generally more efficient than small combustion engines but all other things in chain must apply. Mix in nuclear and solar and things change of course. However comparing the efficiency of the controller / motor to engine / transmission is apple to oranges, the battery / controller / motor in a EV is just the last part of a long transmission stretching from the engine in the power plant: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_long_tailpipe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_long_tailpipe
- imtringued 6y ago
  EV owners can just get a green electricity plan.
- speedgoose 6y ago
  Yes it's difficult to compare. Many people like to take into account the efficiency of the electricity production when talking about EV, which is an important thing to do, but forget that gaz does not appear magically in a gaz tank. The efficiency of having gaz in a gaz tank is shit. I don't have the numbers because I'm lazy, but I remember reading that it takes more energy to bring one liter of gaz in a car tank, if you consider the full chain, than the energy required to drive a EV on the same distance. So even before you start to turn on the cars, an EV has used less energy.

agumonkey 6y ago

I don't have all the numbers but I assume it's already a clear yes. Lithium batteries are already highly recycled in some areas. Cobalt is on the way out. What else is left ? coolant ? motor is basically 99% metals.

floatrock 6y ago

Yes, and it has been true since even 2015: https://www.ucsusa.org/sites/default/files/attach/2015/11/Cleaner-Cars-from-Cradle-to-Grave-full-report.pdf https://www.ucsusa.org/sites/default/files/attach/2015/11/Cl... There are embedded emissions in manufacturing, and yes, embedded emissions are higher for EV's because of battery manufacturing complexity. But, most of a car's lifetime emissions are in the operation, not the manufacturing. And that's where EV's shine. Plus, this has only been getting more true as the grid has been getting greener -- in the last two years, most new generating capacity that has come online has been renewable.

gruturo 6y ago

Many people seem very keen on looking at the entire pipeline of EV, including mining the lithium and any other material, purifying the brine, etc, and also accounting how electricity is produced, making worst case assumption and so on. Which is a clearly acceptable viewpoint, to which I subscribe. A few of those people, though, do not look at the ICE pipeline nearly as closely, and promptly forget how oil is extracted, refined and transported around the world. The comparison should be fair. Spoiler alert: Oil doesn't end up looking so nice.

dylan604 6y ago
When's the last time a tanker of battery components spilled their contents into the water causing massive damage to the ecosystem?

jordanbeiber 6y ago

Mauritius wants a word with you. :) And there’s been a movie made on this little BP incident: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deepwater_Horizon_oil_spill https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deepwater_Horizon_oil_spill Thats just two out of many. Honestly, IMO, the “entire pipeline” puts EV so far ahead it’s ridiculous. Without talking about what the ICE exhaust pollution is doing to the bodies and brains of people in dense urban environments.

kemiller 6y ago

Longevity of the finished product and/or reusability of components should be taken into account as well. We haven't really had them long enough to know this for sure, but signs are that EVs have a longer service life, which means their embodied energy is amortized over more time.