4 ms·

500+ miles range. Nice. At a constant 70mph, that is over 7 hours continuous driving (...although I wonder how much range decreases at that speed?) I do wond

500+ miles range. Nice. At a constant 70mph, that is over 7 hours continuous driving (...although I wonder how much range decreases at that speed?) I do wonder what the magic numbe needs to be before people stop complaining that x00 miles is not enough and that they reguarly drive 19000 mile a day etc.

pedrocr 6y ago
I wish we had a standardized test for range at continuous 70/80/90 mph instead of the EPA and WLTP tests. Those are designed for overall efficiency testing when what people really want to know about EV range is how long they can go on road trips. For everything else charging at home every night makes pretty much any EV range enough for the commute and the efficiency is always great compared to gas.
- epanchin 6y ago
  Continuous 70mph under what conditions? On a flat with no wind isn’t very representative of real road tripping.
  - natch 6y ago
    Agree. It’s an ok way to convey an intuitive feel for the distance, but as the expression goes ymmv. In real road tripping, what matters is having a fantastic charger network with redundancy on major routes and good coverage on minor routes.
  - pedrocr 6y ago
    Hence the need for a test cycle with a standard set of hills/wind/cold to get you a good estimate of what range to count on from adverse to optimal conditions.
- mcot2 6y ago
  To go even further I think you want to have tests or simulations with specific air resistance as the drag is actually what causes range loss at higher speeds more than anything else. As an example driving 45mph into a strong headwind is also going to be bad for efficiency. I’d actually like to see some tests/simulations that isolate speed (different speeds in a vaccum) and air resistance (constant speed but different air resistance).
- londons_explore 6y ago
  > efficiency is always great compared to gas This isn't a given. Money-efficiency in the UK at least is only good if you charge at home. If you pay on-street prices for electricity, you can easily spending more per mile than a gas car. Eg. An electric car might do 330 Wh/mile. A recharge on the road would cost £3 (connection fee) + £0.30 per kWh. That means if you top up 25 kWh, you'll end up paying £10.50, and able to travel 76 miles, or £0.138 per mile. A typical 2018 gas car gets 50.8 imperial mpg costing £0.108 per mile at todays gas prices in London. Overall, unless you can charge at home, an electric car will cost you more per mile for fuel/electricity alone.
  - imtringued 6y ago
    For reference. There are free public chargers nearby me that don't charge money at all. Your mileage may vary.
  - pedrocr 6y ago
    The efficiency is still great in your example. You're just paying outrageous prices for electricity. That's not an efficiency problem, it's a price problem. EPA/WLTP also doesn't help you measure if your electricity prices are reasonable or not compared to your gas prices.
    - mijamo 6y ago
      Ionity is even more expensive than that in most of Europe.
  - minhazm 6y ago
    Depends on the car. Model 3 is rated for around 250 Wh/mile in the US. For the UK on the WLTP cycle it's rated for a range of 348 miles, and is actually better than 245 Wh/mile, but I don't think WLTP is realistic so let's use the US numbers. Tesla charges around £0.24 per kWh in the UK, and there is no connection fee. In that case for 25 kWh you'd be paying £6, which would get you 100 miles of range. Or £6 / 100 = £0.06 per mile. £0.06 per mile vs £0.108 per mile. That's way cheaper for the Tesla. Some of the other fast charging networks are indeed more expensive than Tesla, but they are also getting cheaper. Plus if you charge at the L2 chargers, like a lot of people generally do for charging at work, it's even cheaper.
ndaugherty18 6y ago
The article says they did a test @70mph and the battery lasted 458 miles.
bfieidhbrjr 6y ago
The reality is always far worse. A brand new Model 3 will do 310 miles of range. Only you're not supposed to use the top 10% or bottom 10% unless you absolutely have to, to avoid damaging the battery. So now it's 248 miles of range. Unless it's extremely cold or hot, or you have a heavy foot, or you have a roof rack, or it's uphill... Where 200 miles might be more accurate. My 18-month old Model 3 will do 301 miles, which means best-case 240 miles reality unless I want to damage the pack (more). I actually love my Tesla, and the pack degradation is fine, and there are lots of other benefits.... But when someone says "500 miles range" I'm going to read that as "probably ~350 miles real range after a year of ownership and if it's cold or something".
- turtlebits 6y ago
  You’re overthinking it. Just drive the car as the range reports. There is a battery degradation warranty if the pack does truly get damaged. I know Chevy bolts have extra capacity so you aren’t causing permanent conditioning at low capacity. Never heard of not driving when at full. Only not to fast charge above 80%, which the car and charging stations manage for you. And as for cold weather, yes you do lose some range, but in warm weather you gain range. I get close to 280 on my bolt (rated 238) in the summers.
- ogre_codes 6y ago
  > A brand new Model 3 will do 310 miles of range. Only you're not supposed to use the top 10% or bottom 10% unless you absolutely have to, to avoid damaging the battery. So now it's 248 miles of range. Unless it's extremely cold or hot, or you have a heavy foot, or you have a roof rack, or it's uphill... Where 200 miles might be more accurate. This isn't much different from ICE cars mileage estimates. Getting the actual mileage out of my Subaru is possible if I'm very careful with the gas-pedal, don't have a bike on the back of the car, etc etc. If I drive at 70 miles an hour for the whole tank, my range drops by 15-20%.
  - fomine3 6y ago
    ICE's estimate also not precise but it's not problem because it's refueled in a few minutes.
turtlebits 6y ago
IME, 300 miles is enough. The problem is charging infrastructure. Tesla got it right building out their own as everything else is a crapshoot. At least 50% of the time i've tried to DC fast charge, stations just don't work. In fact, there is a station near me that has 2 of 4 chargers not working for the past 2 months. (I've called and used the phone app to report problems)
- rconti 6y ago
  The FUD is real. When I bought a model 3, it was trying to decide whether I wanted to spend half as much on a commuter-only, or pony up for the Tesla and have a "nice" car I could also take a roadtrip in. For the "same price as Tesla" EV competitors, you get an admittedly slightly nicer car, with the massive downside of charging infra. And it's just too much money for me to spend to not be able to be confident on a roadtrip.
- michaelmior 6y ago
  I assume you mean 300 miles is enough "if there is sufficient charging infrastructure." If so, I think that I would agree that would be sufficient for most. Having to stop for a non-trivial amount of time to charge is one of the main disadvantages right now of EVs vs ICE.
michaelmior 6y ago
That would be enough range for me if it weren't for the temperature sensitivity of current batteries. I live in the northern US and pre-COVID I regularly drove trips ~300 miles to visit family. 500 miles range would work great for most of the year, but at least in my current vehicle, battery capacity drops quickly in the cold. This is the main reason why I drive a PHEV and haven't gone fully electric. (That and the fact that my family lives in rural Ontario where public charging infrastructure is very limited.)

pedrocr 6y ago

I wish we had a standardized test for range at continuous 70/80/90 mph instead of the EPA and WLTP tests. Those are designed for overall efficiency testing when what people really want to know about EV range is how long they can go on road trips. For everything else charging at home every night makes pretty much any EV range enough for the commute and the efficiency is always great compared to gas.

epanchin 6y ago
Continuous 70mph under what conditions? On a flat with no wind isn’t very representative of real road tripping.
- natch 6y ago
  Agree. It’s an ok way to convey an intuitive feel for the distance, but as the expression goes ymmv. In real road tripping, what matters is having a fantastic charger network with redundancy on major routes and good coverage on minor routes.
- pedrocr 6y ago
  Hence the need for a test cycle with a standard set of hills/wind/cold to get you a good estimate of what range to count on from adverse to optimal conditions.
mcot2 6y ago
To go even further I think you want to have tests or simulations with specific air resistance as the drag is actually what causes range loss at higher speeds more than anything else. As an example driving 45mph into a strong headwind is also going to be bad for efficiency. I’d actually like to see some tests/simulations that isolate speed (different speeds in a vaccum) and air resistance (constant speed but different air resistance).
londons_explore 6y ago
> efficiency is always great compared to gas This isn't a given. Money-efficiency in the UK at least is only good if you charge at home. If you pay on-street prices for electricity, you can easily spending more per mile than a gas car. Eg. An electric car might do 330 Wh/mile. A recharge on the road would cost £3 (connection fee) + £0.30 per kWh. That means if you top up 25 kWh, you'll end up paying £10.50, and able to travel 76 miles, or £0.138 per mile. A typical 2018 gas car gets 50.8 imperial mpg costing £0.108 per mile at todays gas prices in London. Overall, unless you can charge at home, an electric car will cost you more per mile for fuel/electricity alone.
- imtringued 6y ago
  For reference. There are free public chargers nearby me that don't charge money at all. Your mileage may vary.
- pedrocr 6y ago
  The efficiency is still great in your example. You're just paying outrageous prices for electricity. That's not an efficiency problem, it's a price problem. EPA/WLTP also doesn't help you measure if your electricity prices are reasonable or not compared to your gas prices.
  - mijamo 6y ago
    Ionity is even more expensive than that in most of Europe.
- minhazm 6y ago
  Depends on the car. Model 3 is rated for around 250 Wh/mile in the US. For the UK on the WLTP cycle it's rated for a range of 348 miles, and is actually better than 245 Wh/mile, but I don't think WLTP is realistic so let's use the US numbers. Tesla charges around £0.24 per kWh in the UK, and there is no connection fee. In that case for 25 kWh you'd be paying £6, which would get you 100 miles of range. Or £6 / 100 = £0.06 per mile. £0.06 per mile vs £0.108 per mile. That's way cheaper for the Tesla. Some of the other fast charging networks are indeed more expensive than Tesla, but they are also getting cheaper. Plus if you charge at the L2 chargers, like a lot of people generally do for charging at work, it's even cheaper.

ndaugherty18 6y ago

The article says they did a test @70mph and the battery lasted 458 miles.

bfieidhbrjr 6y ago

The reality is always far worse. A brand new Model 3 will do 310 miles of range. Only you're not supposed to use the top 10% or bottom 10% unless you absolutely have to, to avoid damaging the battery. So now it's 248 miles of range. Unless it's extremely cold or hot, or you have a heavy foot, or you have a roof rack, or it's uphill... Where 200 miles might be more accurate. My 18-month old Model 3 will do 301 miles, which means best-case 240 miles reality unless I want to damage the pack (more). I actually love my Tesla, and the pack degradation is fine, and there are lots of other benefits.... But when someone says "500 miles range" I'm going to read that as "probably ~350 miles real range after a year of ownership and if it's cold or something".

turtlebits 6y ago
You’re overthinking it. Just drive the car as the range reports. There is a battery degradation warranty if the pack does truly get damaged. I know Chevy bolts have extra capacity so you aren’t causing permanent conditioning at low capacity. Never heard of not driving when at full. Only not to fast charge above 80%, which the car and charging stations manage for you. And as for cold weather, yes you do lose some range, but in warm weather you gain range. I get close to 280 on my bolt (rated 238) in the summers.
ogre_codes 6y ago
> A brand new Model 3 will do 310 miles of range. Only you're not supposed to use the top 10% or bottom 10% unless you absolutely have to, to avoid damaging the battery. So now it's 248 miles of range. Unless it's extremely cold or hot, or you have a heavy foot, or you have a roof rack, or it's uphill... Where 200 miles might be more accurate. This isn't much different from ICE cars mileage estimates. Getting the actual mileage out of my Subaru is possible if I'm very careful with the gas-pedal, don't have a bike on the back of the car, etc etc. If I drive at 70 miles an hour for the whole tank, my range drops by 15-20%.
- fomine3 6y ago
  ICE's estimate also not precise but it's not problem because it's refueled in a few minutes.

turtlebits 6y ago

IME, 300 miles is enough. The problem is charging infrastructure. Tesla got it right building out their own as everything else is a crapshoot. At least 50% of the time i've tried to DC fast charge, stations just don't work. In fact, there is a station near me that has 2 of 4 chargers not working for the past 2 months. (I've called and used the phone app to report problems)

rconti 6y ago
The FUD is real. When I bought a model 3, it was trying to decide whether I wanted to spend half as much on a commuter-only, or pony up for the Tesla and have a "nice" car I could also take a roadtrip in. For the "same price as Tesla" EV competitors, you get an admittedly slightly nicer car, with the massive downside of charging infra. And it's just too much money for me to spend to not be able to be confident on a roadtrip.
michaelmior 6y ago
I assume you mean 300 miles is enough "if there is sufficient charging infrastructure." If so, I think that I would agree that would be sufficient for most. Having to stop for a non-trivial amount of time to charge is one of the main disadvantages right now of EVs vs ICE.

michaelmior 6y ago

That would be enough range for me if it weren't for the temperature sensitivity of current batteries. I live in the northern US and pre-COVID I regularly drove trips ~300 miles to visit family. 500 miles range would work great for most of the year, but at least in my current vehicle, battery capacity drops quickly in the cold. This is the main reason why I drive a PHEV and haven't gone fully electric. (That and the fact that my family lives in rural Ontario where public charging infrastructure is very limited.)