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Calling guilt tripping manipulation is a little dramatic given that people use the expression to encompass anything that makes them feel guilty whether it's int

Calling guilt tripping manipulation is a little dramatic given that people use the expression to encompass anything that makes them feel guilty whether it's intended to or not. If you drive an efficient car, ride a bike, or walk, some people, varying numbers according to where you are, will be righteously outraged that you're guilt-tripping them. Also, "manipulation" suggests unfair trickery. If you're guilt-tripped for speeding in a school zone, is that unfair trickery? There are rules that are meant to constrain people from infringing on other people's rights and security. How are we supposed to enforce them? Should every anti-social activity be enforced by a fine or prison time? That's considerably harsher than a moment of social discomfort when you realize someone is shaming you. Finally, calling this "evil" is exhausting your evaluative vocabulary too quickly. Guilt-tripping someone for anti-social behavior can certainly be less harmful than guilt-tripping them for pro-social behavior, which is less harmful than the anti-social behavior itself, and so forth.

SamBam 6y ago
Indeed. The number of times I've heard that driving an electric car or a bike is "virtue signaling" is amazing. I think, if you're so focused on the "signaling" -- the notion that someone is just doing that to provoke an emotional response -- then all that's saying to me is that it's provoking guilt in you, and that's made you feel angry.
- thelittlenag 6y ago
  Are you contending that virtue signalling isn't real, or that what is claimed to be virtue signaling isn't and so the phrase becomes a kind of slur? My opinion is that virtue signalling is real, and, further, that "signalling" doesn't just have an effect on other people, it can change our own disposition. The use of the phrase "virtue signalling" is sometimes applied in reverse, describing someone that is insufferably smug and exudes a sense of unearned moral superiority and ascribing those traits to their desire to signal their piety to others. Oddly, I find that a kindness as it means these undesirable traits have an external cause and can therefore be corrected.
  - SamBam 6y ago
    I am saying that doing actions that are actually pro-social -- "virtuous," if you will -- such as reducing pollution, are not "virtue signaling," or at least not with the negative connotation the term has taken on in the past decade, which generally implies hollow statements without value. When I hear someone look at somebody doing something good in the world, and dismiss them as mere "virtue signaling," it tells me more about the person doing the labeling that the person labeled. They can't conceive of someone doing something pro-social for its own sake, and instead ascribe cynical "signaling" to justify their own lack of morals.
    - throwaway894345 6y ago
      It’s entirely possible that a person is riding their electric scooter to advertise their virtuous concern for the environment (ignoring how likely this is to be true for any given scooterist) AND that someone else is being a shitty person for being dismissive. Note that the dismissive person is specifically shitty for doing their own virtue signaling—hollowly criticizing someone else to signal their own virtue. Of course, it’s easy to mistake an earnest scooterist or critic for a virtue signaler (ultimately motive is hard to assess) so we should take care about these accusations as with any accusation of motivation (in the same way that no decent person would loosely sling accusations of racism, sexism, etc).
      - SamBam 6y ago
        I guess I just don't care about baselessly speculating the motivation someone may have for the positive thing they are doing.
        throwaway894345 6y ago
        Yeah, I generally agree. Speculating about motives is a bad deal, per my above comment.
- raxxorrax 6y ago
  It is not used to provoke a response, it is more about signaling political affiliation. I think virtue signaling is synonymous with dog whistling, but different jargon is used by different partisan groups. It depends what messages and from whom. From corporations? From politicians? From advertisers? In CVs? I think it would be prudent to consider motivation in some cases, but it is a subjective assessment still, as might be the message. I hope car/bike choice will never be a political statement. That would be a loss for everyone. Not everything should be regarded as that as it would suggest severe bitterness.
lhorie 6y ago
> given that people use the expression to encompass anything that makes them feel guilty whether it's intended to or not This argument feels like splitting hairs. My understanding is that we're talking about guilt-tripping in the sense of actively engaging with someone in order to produce a desired outcome from that someone. Merely seeing someone biking to work doesn't really pass that litmus test, as the cyclist isn't immediately interested in what you do based on your opinion of his commuting choice.

SamBam 6y ago

Indeed. The number of times I've heard that driving an electric car or a bike is "virtue signaling" is amazing. I think, if you're so focused on the "signaling" -- the notion that someone is just doing that to provoke an emotional response -- then all that's saying to me is that it's provoking guilt in you, and that's made you feel angry.

thelittlenag 6y ago
Are you contending that virtue signalling isn't real, or that what is claimed to be virtue signaling isn't and so the phrase becomes a kind of slur? My opinion is that virtue signalling is real, and, further, that "signalling" doesn't just have an effect on other people, it can change our own disposition. The use of the phrase "virtue signalling" is sometimes applied in reverse, describing someone that is insufferably smug and exudes a sense of unearned moral superiority and ascribing those traits to their desire to signal their piety to others. Oddly, I find that a kindness as it means these undesirable traits have an external cause and can therefore be corrected.
- SamBam 6y ago
  I am saying that doing actions that are actually pro-social -- "virtuous," if you will -- such as reducing pollution, are not "virtue signaling," or at least not with the negative connotation the term has taken on in the past decade, which generally implies hollow statements without value. When I hear someone look at somebody doing something good in the world, and dismiss them as mere "virtue signaling," it tells me more about the person doing the labeling that the person labeled. They can't conceive of someone doing something pro-social for its own sake, and instead ascribe cynical "signaling" to justify their own lack of morals.
  - throwaway894345 6y ago
    It’s entirely possible that a person is riding their electric scooter to advertise their virtuous concern for the environment (ignoring how likely this is to be true for any given scooterist) AND that someone else is being a shitty person for being dismissive. Note that the dismissive person is specifically shitty for doing their own virtue signaling—hollowly criticizing someone else to signal their own virtue. Of course, it’s easy to mistake an earnest scooterist or critic for a virtue signaler (ultimately motive is hard to assess) so we should take care about these accusations as with any accusation of motivation (in the same way that no decent person would loosely sling accusations of racism, sexism, etc).
    - SamBam 6y ago
      I guess I just don't care about baselessly speculating the motivation someone may have for the positive thing they are doing.
      - throwaway894345 6y ago
        Yeah, I generally agree. Speculating about motives is a bad deal, per my above comment.
raxxorrax 6y ago
It is not used to provoke a response, it is more about signaling political affiliation. I think virtue signaling is synonymous with dog whistling, but different jargon is used by different partisan groups. It depends what messages and from whom. From corporations? From politicians? From advertisers? In CVs? I think it would be prudent to consider motivation in some cases, but it is a subjective assessment still, as might be the message. I hope car/bike choice will never be a political statement. That would be a loss for everyone. Not everything should be regarded as that as it would suggest severe bitterness.

lhorie 6y ago

> given that people use the expression to encompass anything that makes them feel guilty whether it's intended to or not This argument feels like splitting hairs. My understanding is that we're talking about guilt-tripping in the sense of actively engaging with someone in order to produce a desired outcome from that someone. Merely seeing someone biking to work doesn't really pass that litmus test, as the cyclist isn't immediately interested in what you do based on your opinion of his commuting choice.