6 ms·

Guilt-tripping isn't morally neutral. It's manipulation, exploitation, getting people to do what you want without giving them what they want. Doing it is evil a

Guilt-tripping isn't morally neutral. It's manipulation, exploitation, getting people to do what you want without giving them what they want. Doing it is evil and makes you evil. In my late teens and early twenties I constantly guilt-tripped people close to me. It was my "thing". It hurt everyone a lot. Then one day I realized how sick it was, and stopped completely. Now I never do it to anyone for any reason, and push back whenever someone does it to me for any reason. I recommend this approach to everyone.

logicchains 6y ago
Always be wary of someone who calls you selfish while expecting you to do something for them without giving you anything back in return.
- throwaway98797 6y ago
  I find it best to claim that “yes, I’m selfish”. It tends to move the conversation to a more constructive place since then they have to provide reasons to induce my behavior.
darkerside 6y ago
This has always been obvious to me. I have actually struggled with the opposite, where I have at times struggled to pursue what I want at cost to others, not understood how to set boundaries, or failed to hold people accountable to even their own principles. It's funny that people can have such different backgrounds and life experiences, and that, as it turns out, end up in similar places because maturity results in finding a balance. At least in my opinion.
wccrawford 6y ago
I had exactly the same realization about the same time. And now I strongly push back against it to this day. Unfortunately, most people don't even realize they're being manipulated. Whenever I get visibly upset at being manipulated, people question it. Almost inevitably, they don't understand the manipulation and think it's fine.
deleted 6y ago
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zaarn 6y ago
This isn't about manipulating to have people do something for you. The article is about people feeling guilty for throwing trash on the ground instead of in the trash can. If that is evil then I don't know where your morality is centered around but certainly not "morally neutral".
bovermyer 6y ago
You're not wrong, but the article isn't about externally-introduced guilt. It's about the reduction of internally-produced guilt.
bartread 6y ago
> Doing it is evil and makes you evil. Whoa: hold on just a second there. I don't necessarily disagree with your wider point but we need to step away from this inflammatory and accusatory language. You said that you used to guilt-trip people constantly when you were younger, and then you stopped when you realised how sick it was. Doing it didn't make you evil: it made you immature, and then you grew out of it. Except that - and I sort of hate that I'm pointing this out - you haven't entirely grown out of it because you recommend people not do it but then brand them evil if they do. That's guilt-tripping, and it's manipulative and inflammatory. (Still, we all have our off days and revert to type from time to time, so please don't see this as a personal attack.) Anyway, my wider point is this: part of maturing is developing better and more effective social skills. Hence many people change a lot between their late teens and mid-20s. Not everybody does though. If guilt-tripping and similar kinds of manipulative behaviour become the pattern someone follows throughout their life (i.e., they don't choose to grow out of these behaviours) that might make them evil, but let's try to avoid almost literally demonizing vast numbers of people who are probably just immature.
- deleted 6y ago
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- adnzzzzZ 6y ago
  Branding some behavior as evil isn't guilt tripping, it's just branding the behavior as evil. I agree with the person you replied to that guilt tripping is an evil behavior. People do all sorts of evil behaviors without realizing it, their lack of awareness doesn't make it any less evil.
  - TeaDrunk 6y ago
    Is it evil as in intentionally malicious? It's possible to harm people without intending to harm them, in the way one can accidentally step on another's foot, or an eager arm hits someone's face- neither of these are assault per se. I've always taken guilt tripping as a consequence of unhealthy mindset when approaching a concern.
einpoklum 6y ago
So, you're arguing against guilt-tripping by guilt-tripping those who guilt-trip? Nice :-)
- civilization_ 6y ago
  It was his last guilt trip!
hliyan 6y ago
I feel that guilt induced by a loved one (a la guilt-tripping) and societal guilt are somewhat different. We all carry at least some emotional baggage from past episodes of guilt tripping by family members, but I don't think that should be a factor in this particular topic.
DFHippie 6y ago
Calling guilt tripping manipulation is a little dramatic given that people use the expression to encompass anything that makes them feel guilty whether it's intended to or not. If you drive an efficient car, ride a bike, or walk, some people, varying numbers according to where you are, will be righteously outraged that you're guilt-tripping them. Also, "manipulation" suggests unfair trickery. If you're guilt-tripped for speeding in a school zone, is that unfair trickery? There are rules that are meant to constrain people from infringing on other people's rights and security. How are we supposed to enforce them? Should every anti-social activity be enforced by a fine or prison time? That's considerably harsher than a moment of social discomfort when you realize someone is shaming you. Finally, calling this "evil" is exhausting your evaluative vocabulary too quickly. Guilt-tripping someone for anti-social behavior can certainly be less harmful than guilt-tripping them for pro-social behavior, which is less harmful than the anti-social behavior itself, and so forth.
- SamBam 6y ago
  Indeed. The number of times I've heard that driving an electric car or a bike is "virtue signaling" is amazing. I think, if you're so focused on the "signaling" -- the notion that someone is just doing that to provoke an emotional response -- then all that's saying to me is that it's provoking guilt in you, and that's made you feel angry.
  - thelittlenag 6y ago
    Are you contending that virtue signalling isn't real, or that what is claimed to be virtue signaling isn't and so the phrase becomes a kind of slur? My opinion is that virtue signalling is real, and, further, that "signalling" doesn't just have an effect on other people, it can change our own disposition. The use of the phrase "virtue signalling" is sometimes applied in reverse, describing someone that is insufferably smug and exudes a sense of unearned moral superiority and ascribing those traits to their desire to signal their piety to others. Oddly, I find that a kindness as it means these undesirable traits have an external cause and can therefore be corrected.
    - 6y ago
kingkawn 6y ago
Sounds like still a few steps to go
FascistsAreLame 6y ago
Guilt tripping people into not killing is evil? Your thesis doesn’t hold much water.
- dvtrn 6y ago
  Neither does taking their statements to the most extreme and absurd.
  - FascistsAreLame 6y ago
    Actually, you seem unaware as to how logic works.
dalore 6y ago
Are you not now guilt-tripping people who guilt-trip other people? > Doing it is evil and makes you evil.
- throwaway894345 6y ago
  There’s a motivational difference between persuasion and coercion/manipulation. Pointing out that an act is evil isn’t inherently manipulative, but implying shame and guilt in order to coerce someone into changing their behavior is. It’s a fine line and it’s hard to litigate because the distinction is motivational.
- orestarod 6y ago
  The thing with guilt tripping is that it tries to bypass the will and judgement of the victim and coerce them to do something against these self properties through the guilt. Calling out someone to better their behavior is an open criticism, not guilt tripping.
stared 6y ago
In Nonviolent Communication by Marshal Rosenberg (nice summary: https://medium.com/s/please-advise/the-essential-guide-to-difficult-conversations-41f736e63ccf https://medium.com/s/please-advise/the-essential-guide-to-di...), instilling guilt (and shame) is considered to be a violent way of communicating. First, I had a problem with this definition of violence. Then I saw it fits the framework of violence: "either you do as we say, or we will intentionally make you suffer". I say "we" because, in many cases, it is not a single individual but a community or any social group. Jewish and Catholic cultures are famous for their guilt-driven development approach to upbringing: https://thetylt.com/culture/catholic-guilt-or-jewish-guilt https://thetylt.com/culture/catholic-guilt-or-jewish-guilt To be clear, guilt sometimes makes sense as a deterrent. But let's not use it lightly.
cutemonster 6y ago
> Guilt-tripping ... is evil and makes you evil. Actually it seems you didn't 100% stop guilt tripping others

logicchains 6y ago

Always be wary of someone who calls you selfish while expecting you to do something for them without giving you anything back in return.

throwaway98797 6y ago
I find it best to claim that “yes, I’m selfish”. It tends to move the conversation to a more constructive place since then they have to provide reasons to induce my behavior.

darkerside 6y ago

This has always been obvious to me. I have actually struggled with the opposite, where I have at times struggled to pursue what I want at cost to others, not understood how to set boundaries, or failed to hold people accountable to even their own principles. It's funny that people can have such different backgrounds and life experiences, and that, as it turns out, end up in similar places because maturity results in finding a balance. At least in my opinion.

wccrawford 6y ago

I had exactly the same realization about the same time. And now I strongly push back against it to this day. Unfortunately, most people don't even realize they're being manipulated. Whenever I get visibly upset at being manipulated, people question it. Almost inevitably, they don't understand the manipulation and think it's fine.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

zaarn 6y ago

This isn't about manipulating to have people do something for you. The article is about people feeling guilty for throwing trash on the ground instead of in the trash can. If that is evil then I don't know where your morality is centered around but certainly not "morally neutral".

bovermyer 6y ago

You're not wrong, but the article isn't about externally-introduced guilt. It's about the reduction of internally-produced guilt.

bartread 6y ago

> Doing it is evil and makes you evil. Whoa: hold on just a second there. I don't necessarily disagree with your wider point but we need to step away from this inflammatory and accusatory language. You said that you used to guilt-trip people constantly when you were younger, and then you stopped when you realised how sick it was. Doing it didn't make you evil: it made you immature, and then you grew out of it. Except that - and I sort of hate that I'm pointing this out - you haven't entirely grown out of it because you recommend people not do it but then brand them evil if they do. That's guilt-tripping, and it's manipulative and inflammatory. (Still, we all have our off days and revert to type from time to time, so please don't see this as a personal attack.) Anyway, my wider point is this: part of maturing is developing better and more effective social skills. Hence many people change a lot between their late teens and mid-20s. Not everybody does though. If guilt-tripping and similar kinds of manipulative behaviour become the pattern someone follows throughout their life (i.e., they don't choose to grow out of these behaviours) that might make them evil, but let's try to avoid almost literally demonizing vast numbers of people who are probably just immature.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
adnzzzzZ 6y ago
Branding some behavior as evil isn't guilt tripping, it's just branding the behavior as evil. I agree with the person you replied to that guilt tripping is an evil behavior. People do all sorts of evil behaviors without realizing it, their lack of awareness doesn't make it any less evil.
- TeaDrunk 6y ago
  Is it evil as in intentionally malicious? It's possible to harm people without intending to harm them, in the way one can accidentally step on another's foot, or an eager arm hits someone's face- neither of these are assault per se. I've always taken guilt tripping as a consequence of unhealthy mindset when approaching a concern.

einpoklum 6y ago

So, you're arguing against guilt-tripping by guilt-tripping those who guilt-trip? Nice :-)

civilization_ 6y ago
It was his last guilt trip!

hliyan 6y ago

I feel that guilt induced by a loved one (a la guilt-tripping) and societal guilt are somewhat different. We all carry at least some emotional baggage from past episodes of guilt tripping by family members, but I don't think that should be a factor in this particular topic.

DFHippie 6y ago

Calling guilt tripping manipulation is a little dramatic given that people use the expression to encompass anything that makes them feel guilty whether it's intended to or not. If you drive an efficient car, ride a bike, or walk, some people, varying numbers according to where you are, will be righteously outraged that you're guilt-tripping them. Also, "manipulation" suggests unfair trickery. If you're guilt-tripped for speeding in a school zone, is that unfair trickery? There are rules that are meant to constrain people from infringing on other people's rights and security. How are we supposed to enforce them? Should every anti-social activity be enforced by a fine or prison time? That's considerably harsher than a moment of social discomfort when you realize someone is shaming you. Finally, calling this "evil" is exhausting your evaluative vocabulary too quickly. Guilt-tripping someone for anti-social behavior can certainly be less harmful than guilt-tripping them for pro-social behavior, which is less harmful than the anti-social behavior itself, and so forth.

SamBam 6y ago
Indeed. The number of times I've heard that driving an electric car or a bike is "virtue signaling" is amazing. I think, if you're so focused on the "signaling" -- the notion that someone is just doing that to provoke an emotional response -- then all that's saying to me is that it's provoking guilt in you, and that's made you feel angry.
- thelittlenag 6y ago
  Are you contending that virtue signalling isn't real, or that what is claimed to be virtue signaling isn't and so the phrase becomes a kind of slur? My opinion is that virtue signalling is real, and, further, that "signalling" doesn't just have an effect on other people, it can change our own disposition. The use of the phrase "virtue signalling" is sometimes applied in reverse, describing someone that is insufferably smug and exudes a sense of unearned moral superiority and ascribing those traits to their desire to signal their piety to others. Oddly, I find that a kindness as it means these undesirable traits have an external cause and can therefore be corrected.
  - 6y ago

kingkawn 6y ago

Sounds like still a few steps to go

FascistsAreLame 6y ago

Guilt tripping people into not killing is evil? Your thesis doesn’t hold much water.

dvtrn 6y ago
Neither does taking their statements to the most extreme and absurd.
- FascistsAreLame 6y ago
  Actually, you seem unaware as to how logic works.

dalore 6y ago

Are you not now guilt-tripping people who guilt-trip other people? > Doing it is evil and makes you evil.

throwaway894345 6y ago
There’s a motivational difference between persuasion and coercion/manipulation. Pointing out that an act is evil isn’t inherently manipulative, but implying shame and guilt in order to coerce someone into changing their behavior is. It’s a fine line and it’s hard to litigate because the distinction is motivational.
orestarod 6y ago
The thing with guilt tripping is that it tries to bypass the will and judgement of the victim and coerce them to do something against these self properties through the guilt. Calling out someone to better their behavior is an open criticism, not guilt tripping.

stared 6y ago

In Nonviolent Communication by Marshal Rosenberg (nice summary: https://medium.com/s/please-advise/the-essential-guide-to-difficult-conversations-41f736e63ccf https://medium.com/s/please-advise/the-essential-guide-to-di...), instilling guilt (and shame) is considered to be a violent way of communicating. First, I had a problem with this definition of violence. Then I saw it fits the framework of violence: "either you do as we say, or we will intentionally make you suffer". I say "we" because, in many cases, it is not a single individual but a community or any social group. Jewish and Catholic cultures are famous for their guilt-driven development approach to upbringing: https://thetylt.com/culture/catholic-guilt-or-jewish-guilt https://thetylt.com/culture/catholic-guilt-or-jewish-guilt To be clear, guilt sometimes makes sense as a deterrent. But let's not use it lightly.

cutemonster 6y ago

> Guilt-tripping ... is evil and makes you evil. Actually it seems you didn't 100% stop guilt tripping others