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> With reduced policing and increased chaos and rioting it seems logical that those with means will employ private security forces. Why do you believe chaos an

> With reduced policing and increased chaos and rioting it seems logical that those with means will employ private security forces. Why do you believe chaos and rioting will be the outcome of reworking policing? That "chaos" and riots are a direct result of the status quo of violent and often racist policing.

Consultant32452 6y ago
I disagree. The chaos and riots are a direct result of weak leadership. When the mayor and governor practically declare a "purge" this is what you get. This would happen in any place and any time in which the government stands down and tells the civilian population they are on their own. We've been locked down for months and it seems like the only thing that's legal to do is burn down buildings and rob stores. This will only be ended with overwhelming violence. Either the state needs to step up and accept their role/responsibility as the monopoly holder on violence, or I fear the general population will. And if the average joe does it, it'll be in the form of mass killings at rallies, which no one wants.
- shirakawasuna 6y ago
  > I disagree. They're literally a response to George Floyd being murdered. The straw that broke the camel's back. Every single protest has chanting of the high-profile cases of black people being murdered by police. > The chaos and riots are a direct result of weak leadership. When the mayor and governor practically declare a "purge" this is what you get. I have no idea what this is referring to. > This would happen in any place and any time in which the government stands down and tells the civilian population they are on their own. When the government stands down from what? Civilian population on their own for what? I have so many questions. > We've been locked down for months and it seems like the only thing that's legal to do is burn down buildings and rob stores. Are you trying to make this about the pandemic? > This will only be ended with overwhelming violence. Either the state needs to step up and accept their role/responsibility as the monopoly holder on violence, or I fear the general population will. And if the average joe does it, it'll be in the form of mass killings at rallies, which no one wants. It will be ended when cops stop murdering black people. That seems like a more copacetic solution than escalating violence.
  - Consultant32452 6y ago
    In Portland the major and governor have ordered police to stand down. Rioters even occupied an area for a week or more, you might recall news stories about chaz/chop? When your neighborhood is violently overtaken by an occupying force and the government does nothing, what do you call that? And of course Portland is not the only city to have made the police stand down and refused to call in the national guard after 3 months now of nightly riots, they're just the most egregious. >Are you trying to make this about the pandemic? I'm not trying to make this about any one thing, but I think it's foolish to imagine that the pandemic lockdowns have no impact on the proverbial temperature in the room. > It will be ended when cops stop murdering black people. That seems like a more copacetic solution than escalating violence. Police violence against black people is a problem in every way except statistically.
    - shirakawasuna 6y ago
      > In Portland the major and governor have ordered police to stand down. Rioters even occupied an area for a week or more, you might recall news stories about chaz/chop? I went there personally. It was a defensive protest area with blockades against cars that had been running into protesters and aggressive cops. > When your neighborhood is violently overtaken by an occupying force and the government does nothing, what do you call that? "Violently overtaken". It's just protesters being in an area, most of which was a public park. It wasn't seized using weapons or anything like you might assume based on how you word that claim. In addition, the denizens of Capitol Hill reported being much happier with CHAZ than the constant nightly indiscriminate and liberal use of teargas that seeped into their apartments and hurt their children and infants. CHAZ put a stop to that by preventing organized police aggression. > And of course Portland is not the only city to have made the police stand down and refused to call in the national guard after 3 months now of nightly riots, they're just the most egregious. PPD was extremely aggressive and escalatory. There's a reason they're targeted by calls to stand down or otherwise be massively restricted. They also have a long-standing history of collaborating with white supremacists. Nothing there is okay. > I'm not trying to make this about any one thing, but I think it's foolish to imagine that the pandemic lockdowns have no impact on the proverbial temperature in the room. I think it's callous and dismissive to speculate that protests about yet another unarmed black man being murdered by cops is about the pandemic. > Police violence against black people is a problem in every way except statistically. Hardly.
- burfog 6y ago
  Just tonight, it sort of happened, in Wisconsin. There were rioters armed in various ways. A favorite was a long and narrow skateboard, because denying that it is intended as a weapon works pretty well. Business owners, homeowners, and their friends were caught in the middle, and typically armed with rifles similar to the AR-15. Rioters chased a guy down the street. He fell. The rioters were soon upon him. He shot at one while on the ground, and got hit by a skateboard. He then managed to stand (this I feel is where the biased video editing will start) and fire at the skateboard attacker who was coming back for another attack. That shot, at a range of 1 to 5 feet, turned the attacker's biceps into a mist that is visible in the video. (other footage shows a fist-sized chunk missing) Way off on the right side of the video another armed rioter apparently has second thoughts, stopping his approach and backing off a bit. Yet another rioter doesn't seem to get the message, continues approaching, and is shot. The shooter then carefully walks down the street. Meanwhile, in a different location but close enough that the shots from one video can be heard in the other, there is another shooting with a similar gun. This time the rioter suffers a head shot or two, then drops down with whole-body spasms that suggest brain stem destruction. I could see a bullet wound on the side of the head, but it looked like a grazing wound. I think there was another that hit the neck or entered a nostril. The nose was bleeding, and the neck was hidden by a scarf.
  - burfog 6y ago
    Slight corrections with newer info: The shooter was the same in both instances. The extra shots are of unknown origin. The head shot, that I described second, was the first instance. The rioters were dumb enough to corner a man with a gun. One did the silly "come on, shoot me" thing and got shot in the head. The rioters then chased the shooter a very long ways, until he fell to the ground. The guy who got shot in the biceps was attempting to use a pistol to execute the guy on the ground. I couldn't make it out, but the biceps loser had a cell phone in his left hand and a pistol in his right hand. He held both hands up as if to surrender, using that to get closer to the guy on the ground. At this point the guy on the ground had killed 2 people, but he held back. The biceps loser suddenly brought his hands down to fire the pistol. It was a clear attempt to execute the guy on the ground, who then shot off the biceps that was on the arm holding the pistol. The shooter showed lots of restraint. In numerous cases, he pointed his rifle at potential attackers, but he didn't shoot if they backed off. Legally, he's going to be fine, but I wouldn't be surprised if a politically-motivated trial happens. His score is 4 rioters shot, 3 of whom died. The biceps loser, who tried to perform an execution, will almost certainly live. The arm might be saved, but that is uncertain. My overall impression is that it looked like a zombie movie. WTF. The rioters just kept coming, seemingly unaware that in real life you can actually get mangled or killed. The rioters are insane. It's interesting that they scream "medic" when injured. They don't scream "police" or "call 911" or "help" or anything normal. It's like they imagine themselves to be soldiers or in a video game.
LegitShady 6y ago
People who accomplish their political goals through violent means continue to be violent because you're teaching them that its effective. The more you surrender to violent rioters demanding policy change through fire and violence rather than the ballot box, the more you demonstrate that violence is the way to accomplish anything. The outcome of surrendering to violent mobs is to embolden and empower violent mobs. There will be more and worse.
- shirakawasuna 6y ago
  > People who accomplish their political goals through violent means continue to be violent because you're teaching them that its effective. This sounds like a description of police departments throughout the United States. > The more you surrender to violent rioters demanding policy change through fire and violence rather than the ballot box, the more you demonstrate that violence is the way to accomplish anything. The rioters aren't doing that. The rioters are releasing pent-up frustration and anger at a system that abuses them. They're not sending any message other than their own pain. The organized protesters are making such demands. They're being met with extreme police violence and aggression. > The outcome of surrendering to violent mobs is to embolden and empower violent mobs. There will be more and worse. Please actually attend a protest to see how the power dynamics work.
  - LegitShady 6y ago
    >This sounds like a description of police departments throughout the United States. No. Racism is bad but not all police are racist (I would guess most aren't) and the violence is not for political purposes. >The rioters aren't doing that. The rioters are releasing pent-up frustration and anger at a system that abuses them. They're not sending any message other than their own pain. Disagree. They're burning down businesses, attacking people, threatening them and intimidating them. You can be in pain without attacking others. Once you attack others you're not communicating pain, you're attacking people, and you can expect to receive it in kind when the people you intimidate and threaten communicate their own pain. >The organized protesters are making such demands. They're being met with extreme police violence and aggression. yawn >Please actually attend a protest to see how the power dynamics work. I have been to protests, but violent riots are not protests, and rewarding violent rioters and defending them is its own power dynamic. The power dynamic right now is heavily on the side of violent rioters and people pushing political violence, and it will lead to even more tragedy.

Consultant32452 6y ago

I disagree. The chaos and riots are a direct result of weak leadership. When the mayor and governor practically declare a "purge" this is what you get. This would happen in any place and any time in which the government stands down and tells the civilian population they are on their own. We've been locked down for months and it seems like the only thing that's legal to do is burn down buildings and rob stores. This will only be ended with overwhelming violence. Either the state needs to step up and accept their role/responsibility as the monopoly holder on violence, or I fear the general population will. And if the average joe does it, it'll be in the form of mass killings at rallies, which no one wants.

shirakawasuna 6y ago
> I disagree. They're literally a response to George Floyd being murdered. The straw that broke the camel's back. Every single protest has chanting of the high-profile cases of black people being murdered by police. > The chaos and riots are a direct result of weak leadership. When the mayor and governor practically declare a "purge" this is what you get. I have no idea what this is referring to. > This would happen in any place and any time in which the government stands down and tells the civilian population they are on their own. When the government stands down from what? Civilian population on their own for what? I have so many questions. > We've been locked down for months and it seems like the only thing that's legal to do is burn down buildings and rob stores. Are you trying to make this about the pandemic? > This will only be ended with overwhelming violence. Either the state needs to step up and accept their role/responsibility as the monopoly holder on violence, or I fear the general population will. And if the average joe does it, it'll be in the form of mass killings at rallies, which no one wants. It will be ended when cops stop murdering black people. That seems like a more copacetic solution than escalating violence.
- Consultant32452 6y ago
  In Portland the major and governor have ordered police to stand down. Rioters even occupied an area for a week or more, you might recall news stories about chaz/chop? When your neighborhood is violently overtaken by an occupying force and the government does nothing, what do you call that? And of course Portland is not the only city to have made the police stand down and refused to call in the national guard after 3 months now of nightly riots, they're just the most egregious. >Are you trying to make this about the pandemic? I'm not trying to make this about any one thing, but I think it's foolish to imagine that the pandemic lockdowns have no impact on the proverbial temperature in the room. > It will be ended when cops stop murdering black people. That seems like a more copacetic solution than escalating violence. Police violence against black people is a problem in every way except statistically.
  - shirakawasuna 6y ago
    > In Portland the major and governor have ordered police to stand down. Rioters even occupied an area for a week or more, you might recall news stories about chaz/chop? I went there personally. It was a defensive protest area with blockades against cars that had been running into protesters and aggressive cops. > When your neighborhood is violently overtaken by an occupying force and the government does nothing, what do you call that? "Violently overtaken". It's just protesters being in an area, most of which was a public park. It wasn't seized using weapons or anything like you might assume based on how you word that claim. In addition, the denizens of Capitol Hill reported being much happier with CHAZ than the constant nightly indiscriminate and liberal use of teargas that seeped into their apartments and hurt their children and infants. CHAZ put a stop to that by preventing organized police aggression. > And of course Portland is not the only city to have made the police stand down and refused to call in the national guard after 3 months now of nightly riots, they're just the most egregious. PPD was extremely aggressive and escalatory. There's a reason they're targeted by calls to stand down or otherwise be massively restricted. They also have a long-standing history of collaborating with white supremacists. Nothing there is okay. > I'm not trying to make this about any one thing, but I think it's foolish to imagine that the pandemic lockdowns have no impact on the proverbial temperature in the room. I think it's callous and dismissive to speculate that protests about yet another unarmed black man being murdered by cops is about the pandemic. > Police violence against black people is a problem in every way except statistically. Hardly.
burfog 6y ago
Just tonight, it sort of happened, in Wisconsin. There were rioters armed in various ways. A favorite was a long and narrow skateboard, because denying that it is intended as a weapon works pretty well. Business owners, homeowners, and their friends were caught in the middle, and typically armed with rifles similar to the AR-15. Rioters chased a guy down the street. He fell. The rioters were soon upon him. He shot at one while on the ground, and got hit by a skateboard. He then managed to stand (this I feel is where the biased video editing will start) and fire at the skateboard attacker who was coming back for another attack. That shot, at a range of 1 to 5 feet, turned the attacker's biceps into a mist that is visible in the video. (other footage shows a fist-sized chunk missing) Way off on the right side of the video another armed rioter apparently has second thoughts, stopping his approach and backing off a bit. Yet another rioter doesn't seem to get the message, continues approaching, and is shot. The shooter then carefully walks down the street. Meanwhile, in a different location but close enough that the shots from one video can be heard in the other, there is another shooting with a similar gun. This time the rioter suffers a head shot or two, then drops down with whole-body spasms that suggest brain stem destruction. I could see a bullet wound on the side of the head, but it looked like a grazing wound. I think there was another that hit the neck or entered a nostril. The nose was bleeding, and the neck was hidden by a scarf.
- burfog 6y ago
  Slight corrections with newer info: The shooter was the same in both instances. The extra shots are of unknown origin. The head shot, that I described second, was the first instance. The rioters were dumb enough to corner a man with a gun. One did the silly "come on, shoot me" thing and got shot in the head. The rioters then chased the shooter a very long ways, until he fell to the ground. The guy who got shot in the biceps was attempting to use a pistol to execute the guy on the ground. I couldn't make it out, but the biceps loser had a cell phone in his left hand and a pistol in his right hand. He held both hands up as if to surrender, using that to get closer to the guy on the ground. At this point the guy on the ground had killed 2 people, but he held back. The biceps loser suddenly brought his hands down to fire the pistol. It was a clear attempt to execute the guy on the ground, who then shot off the biceps that was on the arm holding the pistol. The shooter showed lots of restraint. In numerous cases, he pointed his rifle at potential attackers, but he didn't shoot if they backed off. Legally, he's going to be fine, but I wouldn't be surprised if a politically-motivated trial happens. His score is 4 rioters shot, 3 of whom died. The biceps loser, who tried to perform an execution, will almost certainly live. The arm might be saved, but that is uncertain. My overall impression is that it looked like a zombie movie. WTF. The rioters just kept coming, seemingly unaware that in real life you can actually get mangled or killed. The rioters are insane. It's interesting that they scream "medic" when injured. They don't scream "police" or "call 911" or "help" or anything normal. It's like they imagine themselves to be soldiers or in a video game.

LegitShady 6y ago

People who accomplish their political goals through violent means continue to be violent because you're teaching them that its effective. The more you surrender to violent rioters demanding policy change through fire and violence rather than the ballot box, the more you demonstrate that violence is the way to accomplish anything. The outcome of surrendering to violent mobs is to embolden and empower violent mobs. There will be more and worse.

shirakawasuna 6y ago
> People who accomplish their political goals through violent means continue to be violent because you're teaching them that its effective. This sounds like a description of police departments throughout the United States. > The more you surrender to violent rioters demanding policy change through fire and violence rather than the ballot box, the more you demonstrate that violence is the way to accomplish anything. The rioters aren't doing that. The rioters are releasing pent-up frustration and anger at a system that abuses them. They're not sending any message other than their own pain. The organized protesters are making such demands. They're being met with extreme police violence and aggression. > The outcome of surrendering to violent mobs is to embolden and empower violent mobs. There will be more and worse. Please actually attend a protest to see how the power dynamics work.
- LegitShady 6y ago
  >This sounds like a description of police departments throughout the United States. No. Racism is bad but not all police are racist (I would guess most aren't) and the violence is not for political purposes. >The rioters aren't doing that. The rioters are releasing pent-up frustration and anger at a system that abuses them. They're not sending any message other than their own pain. Disagree. They're burning down businesses, attacking people, threatening them and intimidating them. You can be in pain without attacking others. Once you attack others you're not communicating pain, you're attacking people, and you can expect to receive it in kind when the people you intimidate and threaten communicate their own pain. >The organized protesters are making such demands. They're being met with extreme police violence and aggression. yawn >Please actually attend a protest to see how the power dynamics work. I have been to protests, but violent riots are not protests, and rewarding violent rioters and defending them is its own power dynamic. The power dynamic right now is heavily on the side of violent rioters and people pushing political violence, and it will lead to even more tragedy.