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Why do you say that? The calls are for redistributing the funds to other municipal forces or programs.

LegitShady 6y ago
With reduced policing and increased chaos and rioting it seems logical that those with means will employ private security forces. It's the same reason guns are selling like crazy, with new gun owners at all-time high. I fear a situation where because of empathy the state has given up the monopoly on force by essentially allowing violent riots that destroy individuals livelihoods, and those individuals will look for some other way to secure themselves and their property.
- shirakawasuna 6y ago
  > With reduced policing and increased chaos and rioting it seems logical that those with means will employ private security forces. Why do you believe chaos and rioting will be the outcome of reworking policing? That "chaos" and riots are a direct result of the status quo of violent and often racist policing.
  - Consultant32452 6y ago
    I disagree. The chaos and riots are a direct result of weak leadership. When the mayor and governor practically declare a "purge" this is what you get. This would happen in any place and any time in which the government stands down and tells the civilian population they are on their own. We've been locked down for months and it seems like the only thing that's legal to do is burn down buildings and rob stores. This will only be ended with overwhelming violence. Either the state needs to step up and accept their role/responsibility as the monopoly holder on violence, or I fear the general population will. And if the average joe does it, it'll be in the form of mass killings at rallies, which no one wants.
    - shirakawasuna 6y ago
      > I disagree. They're literally a response to George Floyd being murdered. The straw that broke the camel's back. Every single protest has chanting of the high-profile cases of black people being murdered by police. > The chaos and riots are a direct result of weak leadership. When the mayor and governor practically declare a "purge" this is what you get. I have no idea what this is referring to. > This would happen in any place and any time in which the government stands down and tells the civilian population they are on their own. When the government stands down from what? Civilian population on their own for what? I have so many questions. > We've been locked down for months and it seems like the only thing that's legal to do is burn down buildings and rob stores. Are you trying to make this about the pandemic? > This will only be ended with overwhelming violence. Either the state needs to step up and accept their role/responsibility as the monopoly holder on violence, or I fear the general population will. And if the average joe does it, it'll be in the form of mass killings at rallies, which no one wants. It will be ended when cops stop murdering black people. That seems like a more copacetic solution than escalating violence.
      - Consultant32452 6y ago
        In Portland the major and governor have ordered police to stand down. Rioters even occupied an area for a week or more, you might recall news stories about chaz/chop? When your neighborhood is violently overtaken by an occupying force and the government does nothing, what do you call that? And of course Portland is not the only city to have made the police stand down and refused to call in the national guard after 3 months now of nightly riots, they're just the most egregious. >Are you trying to make this about the pandemic? I'm not trying to make this about any one thing, but I think it's foolish to imagine that the pandemic lockdowns have no impact on the proverbial temperature in the room. > It will be ended when cops stop murdering black people. That seems like a more copacetic solution than escalating violence. Police violence against black people is a problem in every way except statistically.
        shirakawasuna 6y ago
        > In Portland the major and governor have ordered police to stand down. Rioters even occupied an area for a week or more, you might recall news stories about chaz/chop? I went there personally. It was a defensive protest area with blockades against cars that had been running into protesters and aggressive cops. > When your neighborhood is violently overtaken by an occupying force and the government does nothing, what do you call that? "Violently overtaken". It's just protesters being in an area, most of which was a public park. It wasn't seized using weapons or anything like you might assume based on how you word that claim. In addition, the denizens of Capitol Hill reported being much happier with CHAZ than the constant nightly indiscriminate and liberal use of teargas that seeped into their apartments and hurt their children and infants. CHAZ put a stop to that by preventing organized police aggression. > And of course Portland is not the only city to have made the police stand down and refused to call in the national guard after 3 months now of nightly riots, they're just the most egregious. PPD was extremely aggressive and escalatory. There's a reason they're targeted by calls to stand down or otherwise be massively restricted. They also have a long-standing history of collaborating with white supremacists. Nothing there is okay. > I'm not trying to make this about any one thing, but I think it's foolish to imagine that the pandemic lockdowns have no impact on the proverbial temperature in the room. I think it's callous and dismissive to speculate that protests about yet another unarmed black man being murdered by cops is about the pandemic. > Police violence against black people is a problem in every way except statistically. Hardly.
  - LegitShady 6y ago
    People who accomplish their political goals through violent means continue to be violent because you're teaching them that its effective. The more you surrender to violent rioters demanding policy change through fire and violence rather than the ballot box, the more you demonstrate that violence is the way to accomplish anything. The outcome of surrendering to violent mobs is to embolden and empower violent mobs. There will be more and worse.
    - shirakawasuna 6y ago
      > People who accomplish their political goals through violent means continue to be violent because you're teaching them that its effective. This sounds like a description of police departments throughout the United States. > The more you surrender to violent rioters demanding policy change through fire and violence rather than the ballot box, the more you demonstrate that violence is the way to accomplish anything. The rioters aren't doing that. The rioters are releasing pent-up frustration and anger at a system that abuses them. They're not sending any message other than their own pain. The organized protesters are making such demands. They're being met with extreme police violence and aggression. > The outcome of surrendering to violent mobs is to embolden and empower violent mobs. There will be more and worse. Please actually attend a protest to see how the power dynamics work.
      - LegitShady 6y ago
        >This sounds like a description of police departments throughout the United States. No. Racism is bad but not all police are racist (I would guess most aren't) and the violence is not for political purposes. >The rioters aren't doing that. The rioters are releasing pent-up frustration and anger at a system that abuses them. They're not sending any message other than their own pain. Disagree. They're burning down businesses, attacking people, threatening them and intimidating them. You can be in pain without attacking others. Once you attack others you're not communicating pain, you're attacking people, and you can expect to receive it in kind when the people you intimidate and threaten communicate their own pain. >The organized protesters are making such demands. They're being met with extreme police violence and aggression. yawn >Please actually attend a protest to see how the power dynamics work. I have been to protests, but violent riots are not protests, and rewarding violent rioters and defending them is its own power dynamic. The power dynamic right now is heavily on the side of violent rioters and people pushing political violence, and it will lead to even more tragedy.
gwright 6y ago
Without trying to pick sides, the argument would be that these redistributive programs will not enhance public safety but instead will make things worse. For those who can afford it, the safety "gap" will be addressed by private security forces, gated communities, or simply re-locating (and taking their tax dollars with them).
- metamet 6y ago
  And there's an opposite argument to that, that the police would be able to properly allocate the appropriate officers to where they're needed. Right now, officers are trained and conditioned in a way that keeps their gun at the forefront of responses. Especially in Minneapolis, where--as of six years ago--96% of the MPD were not from Minneapolis, but commuted from surrounding suburbs, there's an "us vs them" occupier mentality that results from not being a public servant in your own neighborhood. Many MPD cops openly talk about Minneapolis being akin to entering a warzone. If we had people properly trained in deescalating non-violent or domestic situations, who people would feel confident in calling because they wouldn't be worried about somehow getting shot, the armed officers would be able to focus their efforts on the situations requiring their presence. It's a complicated situation. But it's been shown time and again that our system isn't necessarily working, and it would be beneficial to look at other approaches and countries for guidance.
  - gwright 6y ago
    Improved training requires more money, not less.
    - metamet 6y ago
      "Defund the police" doesn't mean "tax break for citizens". It means reallocating those funds, which emphasizes training. There's very little oversight of how the police spend their money, which leads to instances like Snoqualmie purchasing a mine-resistant armored vehicle instead of investing in training.
      - 6y ago
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

With reduced policing and increased chaos and rioting it seems logical that those with means will employ private security forces. It's the same reason guns are selling like crazy, with new gun owners at all-time high. I fear a situation where because of empathy the state has given up the monopoly on force by essentially allowing violent riots that destroy individuals livelihoods, and those individuals will look for some other way to secure themselves and their property.

shirakawasuna 6y ago
> With reduced policing and increased chaos and rioting it seems logical that those with means will employ private security forces. Why do you believe chaos and rioting will be the outcome of reworking policing? That "chaos" and riots are a direct result of the status quo of violent and often racist policing.
- Consultant32452 6y ago
  I disagree. The chaos and riots are a direct result of weak leadership. When the mayor and governor practically declare a "purge" this is what you get. This would happen in any place and any time in which the government stands down and tells the civilian population they are on their own. We've been locked down for months and it seems like the only thing that's legal to do is burn down buildings and rob stores. This will only be ended with overwhelming violence. Either the state needs to step up and accept their role/responsibility as the monopoly holder on violence, or I fear the general population will. And if the average joe does it, it'll be in the form of mass killings at rallies, which no one wants.
  - shirakawasuna 6y ago
    > I disagree. They're literally a response to George Floyd being murdered. The straw that broke the camel's back. Every single protest has chanting of the high-profile cases of black people being murdered by police. > The chaos and riots are a direct result of weak leadership. When the mayor and governor practically declare a "purge" this is what you get. I have no idea what this is referring to. > This would happen in any place and any time in which the government stands down and tells the civilian population they are on their own. When the government stands down from what? Civilian population on their own for what? I have so many questions. > We've been locked down for months and it seems like the only thing that's legal to do is burn down buildings and rob stores. Are you trying to make this about the pandemic? > This will only be ended with overwhelming violence. Either the state needs to step up and accept their role/responsibility as the monopoly holder on violence, or I fear the general population will. And if the average joe does it, it'll be in the form of mass killings at rallies, which no one wants. It will be ended when cops stop murdering black people. That seems like a more copacetic solution than escalating violence.
    - Consultant32452 6y ago
      In Portland the major and governor have ordered police to stand down. Rioters even occupied an area for a week or more, you might recall news stories about chaz/chop? When your neighborhood is violently overtaken by an occupying force and the government does nothing, what do you call that? And of course Portland is not the only city to have made the police stand down and refused to call in the national guard after 3 months now of nightly riots, they're just the most egregious. >Are you trying to make this about the pandemic? I'm not trying to make this about any one thing, but I think it's foolish to imagine that the pandemic lockdowns have no impact on the proverbial temperature in the room. > It will be ended when cops stop murdering black people. That seems like a more copacetic solution than escalating violence. Police violence against black people is a problem in every way except statistically.
      - shirakawasuna 6y ago
        > In Portland the major and governor have ordered police to stand down. Rioters even occupied an area for a week or more, you might recall news stories about chaz/chop? I went there personally. It was a defensive protest area with blockades against cars that had been running into protesters and aggressive cops. > When your neighborhood is violently overtaken by an occupying force and the government does nothing, what do you call that? "Violently overtaken". It's just protesters being in an area, most of which was a public park. It wasn't seized using weapons or anything like you might assume based on how you word that claim. In addition, the denizens of Capitol Hill reported being much happier with CHAZ than the constant nightly indiscriminate and liberal use of teargas that seeped into their apartments and hurt their children and infants. CHAZ put a stop to that by preventing organized police aggression. > And of course Portland is not the only city to have made the police stand down and refused to call in the national guard after 3 months now of nightly riots, they're just the most egregious. PPD was extremely aggressive and escalatory. There's a reason they're targeted by calls to stand down or otherwise be massively restricted. They also have a long-standing history of collaborating with white supremacists. Nothing there is okay. > I'm not trying to make this about any one thing, but I think it's foolish to imagine that the pandemic lockdowns have no impact on the proverbial temperature in the room. I think it's callous and dismissive to speculate that protests about yet another unarmed black man being murdered by cops is about the pandemic. > Police violence against black people is a problem in every way except statistically. Hardly.
- LegitShady 6y ago
  People who accomplish their political goals through violent means continue to be violent because you're teaching them that its effective. The more you surrender to violent rioters demanding policy change through fire and violence rather than the ballot box, the more you demonstrate that violence is the way to accomplish anything. The outcome of surrendering to violent mobs is to embolden and empower violent mobs. There will be more and worse.
  - shirakawasuna 6y ago
    > People who accomplish their political goals through violent means continue to be violent because you're teaching them that its effective. This sounds like a description of police departments throughout the United States. > The more you surrender to violent rioters demanding policy change through fire and violence rather than the ballot box, the more you demonstrate that violence is the way to accomplish anything. The rioters aren't doing that. The rioters are releasing pent-up frustration and anger at a system that abuses them. They're not sending any message other than their own pain. The organized protesters are making such demands. They're being met with extreme police violence and aggression. > The outcome of surrendering to violent mobs is to embolden and empower violent mobs. There will be more and worse. Please actually attend a protest to see how the power dynamics work.
    - LegitShady 6y ago
      >This sounds like a description of police departments throughout the United States. No. Racism is bad but not all police are racist (I would guess most aren't) and the violence is not for political purposes. >The rioters aren't doing that. The rioters are releasing pent-up frustration and anger at a system that abuses them. They're not sending any message other than their own pain. Disagree. They're burning down businesses, attacking people, threatening them and intimidating them. You can be in pain without attacking others. Once you attack others you're not communicating pain, you're attacking people, and you can expect to receive it in kind when the people you intimidate and threaten communicate their own pain. >The organized protesters are making such demands. They're being met with extreme police violence and aggression. yawn >Please actually attend a protest to see how the power dynamics work. I have been to protests, but violent riots are not protests, and rewarding violent rioters and defending them is its own power dynamic. The power dynamic right now is heavily on the side of violent rioters and people pushing political violence, and it will lead to even more tragedy.

gwright 6y ago

Without trying to pick sides, the argument would be that these redistributive programs will not enhance public safety but instead will make things worse. For those who can afford it, the safety "gap" will be addressed by private security forces, gated communities, or simply re-locating (and taking their tax dollars with them).

metamet 6y ago
And there's an opposite argument to that, that the police would be able to properly allocate the appropriate officers to where they're needed. Right now, officers are trained and conditioned in a way that keeps their gun at the forefront of responses. Especially in Minneapolis, where--as of six years ago--96% of the MPD were not from Minneapolis, but commuted from surrounding suburbs, there's an "us vs them" occupier mentality that results from not being a public servant in your own neighborhood. Many MPD cops openly talk about Minneapolis being akin to entering a warzone. If we had people properly trained in deescalating non-violent or domestic situations, who people would feel confident in calling because they wouldn't be worried about somehow getting shot, the armed officers would be able to focus their efforts on the situations requiring their presence. It's a complicated situation. But it's been shown time and again that our system isn't necessarily working, and it would be beneficial to look at other approaches and countries for guidance.
- gwright 6y ago
  Improved training requires more money, not less.
  - metamet 6y ago
    "Defund the police" doesn't mean "tax break for citizens". It means reallocating those funds, which emphasizes training. There's very little oversight of how the police spend their money, which leads to instances like Snoqualmie purchasing a mine-resistant armored vehicle instead of investing in training.
    - 6y ago

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]